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Difficulty in halter breaking

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robdnorm
Reg. Jan 2005
Posted 2005-12-10 8:18 PM (#33947)
Subject: Difficulty in halter breaking


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I am in the process of helping a local school halter break some young horses (6 months old).  Since I am the 4-H agent, I am taking the lead role in getting in the pens and handling the horses.  The students stand and watch from outside the corral to see what is involved.  I have gotten one that is leading around and doing a good job.  She is real gentle and does well around the kids once I catch her and have her where the students can pet her on the head and neck.  However, she is now starting to turn her butt to me when I go to catch her in the pen and is starting to kick at me in the process.  I have always had horses, but never had to break one from this level.  So far I have been able to dodge all the kicks, but I am looking for any suggestions on how to make her face me and making the task of catching her safer.   Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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hayburner1
Reg. Nov 2005
Posted 2005-12-10 9:26 PM (#33948 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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If you want them to face you when you come in the pen try bring them a treat.  The issue here is you would then have to ween them off the treat eventually.  Also if you lucky enough to dodge the next kick, get their attention with a little kick of your own up under their butt. 
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terri s
Reg. Sep 2005
Posted 2005-12-11 10:43 AM (#33957 - in reply to #33948)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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A further bit of unasked-for advice? I'd get the method down before letting the kids do a lot of watching. They might not see the why and you can't explain AND train at this point without risking the kick. I watched a famous clinician once desensitizing a colt to a lead rope. Here's what the kids came away with-"how can that be training? All he does is throw a rope at their butt". The point I'm trying to make is not that you don't know what you're doing but that they might not "get" what they're seeing. You can explain better if you're not dodging hooves.
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Anne0135
Reg. Nov 2005
Posted 2005-12-11 11:55 AM (#33959 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking



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Dont start out around the kids. It will only increase your nervousness and that will translate to the horse. And it wont help the kids any.

When you're alone go into the ring with sweet feed (or whatever their favorite feed is.) Once you get them and their busy chewing,. gently slide the lead over their neck and hold them there, gently and calmly, while they're still chewing. Stroke their neck, pet them, you know just calm them down, but use that lead rope like a rein to keep them steady. When they're calm, gently slide the halter over their nose, still holding them by the neck/lead. Then go for sliding the halter over one ear, then the next. If you can only get it over their nose at the first try, good enough. Pet them, give them a hand of feed and bring them back to the barn.

Next time out just repeat. It should take you no  more than two or three times to have that halter on.

As far as the kicking out, forget it. Never let them get away with it. The good thing about the lead around the neck is that you can always keep there head facing toward you. If they're facing you, they cant kick you. If when you're done and you let them go and they kick out, yell a big "NO" and smack them on butt with that rope. Chase them around if you have to and yell, "NEVER, EVER, DONT YOU EVER KICK OUT AT ME." let them do a little running, and if they kick again, run them again. Then leave them to sulk in the round pen. After an hour or so come back again, put the lead around their neck and lead them back to their stall. No rewards this time. Next time out they should re-think the whole kicking thing as that will mean more work, no rewards, and nothing but a big pain in the butt for such disrespect.

You know that you just have to show them who's boss and never ever let one think that kicking out at you is OK, under any circumstances.

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robdnorm
Reg. Jan 2005
Posted 2005-12-11 3:02 PM (#33961 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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Thanks for the advice.  I work with the colts when the kids are not around to see me.  The goal is not to teach kids how to break a colt at this point.  By the time the kids come to the barn, I have already accomplished the task of catching the colts.  I have both the filly and the colt haltered and plan on leaving those halters on for a while.  Once I catch the filly, which is the calmest of the two, the students get the chance to come in and pet her on the neck and face.  The whole time I am standing between them and the filly to prevent them from getting injured. She is completely at ease when they are touching her.  We are basically teaching the kids how to feed and take care of them and instructing them on the parts of the horse such as the withers, hock and so forth.  Unfortunately, the filly came down sick with a cold and I had to start vaccinating her as soon as she arrived at the school.  Needless to say, she was not fond of getting a shot from me every morning to start off with.  I have been feeding her out of my hand to get her used to coming to me without associating getting a shot with my presence.  However, when my hand gets close to the halter she turns quickly and keeps her butt to me.  I pretty much take all the risks with the colt and filly about getting in the pen and working with them.  After all, it is my responsibility to take the risk of injury over any student.  Needless to say, this is a learning experience for both me and the students. Thanks for all the help so far.
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lively
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2005-12-11 3:40 PM (#33964 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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As has been said you cannot let this baby get away with kicking out. She will assume it is acceptable behavior, unless yuo correct it.  My advice would be to do some round pen work with her. Keep her in a smaller area where you have a little more control. At the moment she is not realizing that this behavior is wrong. Get her in the area and remove the halter take a nice long longe line with you. Push her around the outer edges of the pen refusing to let her come in to you.   As a horse is a herd animal they prefer to group so she will naturally get to trhe point she wants to turn in. Eventually let her but only when you allow her otherwise let the lead out and give a light smack with it to let her know she isn't allowed in. That is basicly what she is doing with you at the moment by kicking out. She is pushing you out and taking control as a dominant and thats not a good thing for her to do. She has to want to come in to you and it is up to you whether to allow her to do this or not. No need to make the lessons very long on this you want it always to end with her wanting you so if you get bored or aggravated always end on a good note. My instructions are vague as I am not good at explaining things. I wouldn't advise having the kids around this particualr foal at all at the moment until you have her basic ground manners under control.  Her kicking out may be dodgeable now but as she gets older it will progress to be more and more dangerous.  Personally if they kick at me i "kick back" figuratively speaking. You have a 3 second reaction time to respond to the behavior otherwise they just do jnot understand why you are popping them. Lets face facts though a kicking contest is  not a good thing though cuz umm well they have the advantage. POint is like i was saying keep her solo for a bit in a small area like a round pen and start from there. When you go in if she starts to kick out when you get the halter ready then push her out with the rope. Smack her fanny when she tries to kick out at ya and keep her pushed out from you. This isn't a fast way of doing things but it does work. Just takes patience some foals can be a bit ummmm rebellious and in this case she sounds like a rather dominant type. Be patient but not passive. THis can take a bit and i know there are faster ways of halter breaking but I know this works and am advising it because maybe it will help. Once again I would just have her solo and work her solo. After she gets better then i would progress to a slightly larger pen with a freind in it for her just to gauge how she is reacting and see if she reverts back to the way she was acting. I personally am not a fan of using feed ot treats but they do work on occasion but if shes  kicking out before she gets the treat you are just reinforcing the behavior by giving her treats. So avoid the treats till she quits the kicking out. They will only make things worse.

Hope i haven't aggravated with my opinion here and hope it helps.

~!Ree

P.S. WIsh i was better at explaining..this is actually a really easy way to do it.

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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2005-12-12 10:02 AM (#33975 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking




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You might want to try leaving a lead rope on her in the stall;  that way she can teach herself some manners.  We are doing that with a very wild 3 mo. old and it is helping considerably.  They are just all different, with their different personalities.  Holler at us if we can help.  Jan and Bill
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RichB
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-12-12 6:54 PM (#33991 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking



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I like what Lively had to say, that is what I would do...round pen work, off line.   Keep her working hard until she is ready to face you and stand.  She sounds like she will not approach you, so when you approach her watch her body language very carefully.  If she takes off, obilge her and keep her moving.  If she starts to give you the look like she is irratated, send her off.  When you release the pressure (stop urging her foward) she should stop and look at you with 2 eyes.  When you can approach her, she should be facing you otherwise you don't have her respect yet, walk to her shoulder/neck and try to rub her neck and work your way all over her body, little by little and then up her neck to her head, rubbing not patting.  Turn and walk away before she gets scared or nervous. Then approach her again and repeat.  If at anytime she kicks out, get after her!!!  Make her beleive you are really ticked off (but you shouldn't be upset or loose your temper, work methodically), make yourself big smack her in the rump with the lounge whip, chase her and send her off. If she is kicking out at you, she isn't scared, so don't worry about it, you need her to know you are the boss and she just made a serious mistake.  You should be able to rub them all over, including the head, keep the halter and lead in your hand and rub her all over with that too. Little by little, retreat before she gets scared and retreat when she is doing good and just standing there letting you rub.  When you walk away (release of pressure), you are rewarding her so make sure she is doing what you want when you reward her.  With most colts you should be able to make good progress after one lesson.  
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lively
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2005-12-13 7:05 AM (#34004 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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Great explanation Rich. Hehe I am awful at explaining i can show but not really explain to well. Lack of words i guess. Rich did a great job explianing this method really does work and gets you a step beyond just halter breaking at the same time. Once again thank you for explaining rich.
Lively
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RichB
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-12-13 12:36 PM (#34015 - in reply to #34004)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking



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Well thanks Lively.  One other thing I forgot to mention, when you get after her for kicking, I would just chase her around for 30 seconds or so, then forget that it ever happened and go back to your training plan.  I have an Arab that used to turn her rump to me when I walked in her stall, like she was saying: "if you get close I'll kick".  So when she showed me her rump, I smacked it with whatever I had in my hand, a halter and lead, a manure rake and even a muck bucket (to keep out of range).  She doesn't do that anymore, now she is good mannered and we get along great. 
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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2005-12-13 10:16 PM (#34036 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking




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One thing to keep in mind is why the filly is turning her butt and kicking;  Is she fearful?  If so, then running her in a round pen is only going to increase her fear.  Even a fearful colt can teach itself with the line attached to the halter.  Suggest that you look at markrashid.com..............  Kicking can be in self defense from a fearful colt's point of view...

Edited by rose 2005-12-13 10:21 PM
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RichB
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-12-15 5:06 PM (#34119 - in reply to #34036)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking



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"she is now starting to turn her butt to me when I go to catch her in the pen and is starting to kick at me in the process"

Before you can put a halter on her you have to be able to catch her safely.  Leaving a lead rope on the halter in the pen will teach a horse how to give to pressure but how will it teach a horse to stop kicking at it's handler?  From the description given, it doesn't sound like this filly is scared, sounds like she would rather not be handled.  I would disagree that doing round pen work makes a scared horse more scared.  I have seen just the opposite.  I have another Arab (BTW, I have QH's and Arabs) that is very nervous and is not easy to catch in the pasture, she runs off when I try to approach her.  After a short time in the round pen, she is nice and calm.  Not only can I approach her and rub her all over, she will approach and follow me.  The only time I have seen a horse kick out of fear is when they are suprised from the rear or something sneaks up on them. 

 

 

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Anne0135
Reg. Nov 2005
Posted 2005-12-15 5:36 PM (#34122 - in reply to #34119)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking



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 I dont get it. How do you even get a horse in the round pen unless you can put a halter on it? I could lead one a short distance with the lead looped around their neck but it would have to be a very trusting horse who listened to me. I too have Arabs, that's what I train, and I dont take them out of their paddock until they are used to the halter or at least manageable enough to be led in there by me.

I think I would make sure they can at least take the halter, calmly and graciously, before I try to do anything more complex in the round pen. At least that's how I've  always done it. If they dont come to you calmly in the paddock, let you put on their halter and can be safely led (another big deal, especially with Arabs) I dont think much training can be done. Not without thise foundation, at least.

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RichB
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-12-16 4:29 PM (#34157 - in reply to #34122)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking



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That was a little confusing the way I wrote it.  The problem, at least the way I read it, was not actually haltering this filly.  The horse isn't exploding once haltered, she is fine with the halter on and can be managed well enough.  If the horse had a problem with the halter, leaving it on with a lead attached would be a good solution. However, the problem seems to be a lack of respect or trust i.e. turning the rump and kicking as he goes to halter. So is the problem the halter or is this a fear/trust issue with the handler.   I think it is a fear/trust issue, and for those types of problems, I would rather work on them in the round pen where I have more room to work and no corners to get caught in. 

But to answer your question directly, if you can't get a halter on, slip a rope over their neck and take them to the round pen.  Of course I'm not talking about dragging them in there, I'm leaving a lot of the details out but I'm assuming that most people who are starting colts understand that and don't need it spelled out word for word.    

So in this particular case, where you don't have a horse that is calmy and graciously taking the halter, what would you do to change that?   My advice, get them haltered (this might not be pretty but that's ok, sometimes it gets worse before it gets better) then take them to the round pen to refine this skill like I explained in the previous posts. 

 



Edited by RichB 2005-12-16 4:33 PM
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packerpete
Reg. Mar 2004
Posted 2005-12-19 4:01 PM (#34220 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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Most of the responses so far have detailed classic Pressure and Release horsetraining techniques using approach and retreat. I use this myself, but I'm also interested in learning other ways to accomplish a goal, particularly when I have a problem....It's always best to stop, wait, and think.

Sometimes waiting for the animal to initiate the intereaction with us can build a very strong bond in the end. The wait is hard for some people to understand just how long you may have to wait until the animal offers up the desired behavior on their own. It becomes their idea to play!

Check out this fastenating article about training wild mustangs with a game of poker:

http://www.wildhorseworkshop.org/whw02/whw0203.html

Others have had good luck with clicker training. Both these methods are a different approach, but sometimes individual animals respond well to these ways. Clicker training can be a great way for kids to learn training from a safe distance.

http://www.clickertraining.com/training/horses/kurland/?loaditem=kurland_intro&itemnumber=2

or this one

http://www.angelfire.com/az/clickryder/intro.html

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deranger
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2006-01-05 4:47 AM (#34927 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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Everyone has offered excellent advice and I'm always interested to read what packerpete has to say. I rescued a crossbred a couple of years ago that had been manhandled, abused and neglected. He had a nasty habit of striking out with either of his front feet. I found this out trying to halter him. I consulted a couple of horse people that I trust and the best advice I got was, "don't push too hard to get what you want." The other advice I got that worked really well was using a training whip to sting the foot that came up at me. In eight hours of round pen time over a period of one week, I was comfortable that I wasn't going to get kicked or struck with a hoof. As was mentioned earlier, you have about a 3 to 5 second window to respond to a kick with a training whip on the hoof. By the way, clicker training works. Happy trails.
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-01-08 2:48 AM (#35096 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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Someone mention the fact if not halter broke how to get them to the roundpen.Depending on the size of the colt I use a stall to start with.In another words if horse size and not enough room a stall is too small for my comfort level.BUT if a yearling etc.I start in the stall with a sorting pole and maybe a flag on the end or just me and my hands etc.I teach them to face me and I use a smooch to move and control them.Then halter them in the stall and start moving them front,side to side etc.with lots of praise and touchy feelys all over.Once going ok in the stall I take them out with asomeone behind me to flag etc.and me in front.Then the round pen.
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mrstacticalmedic
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-01-10 5:31 PM (#35268 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking



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As a veteran 4-H Advisor (not an extension agent), I would never demonstrate halter breaking to my kids unless I am thoroughly confident in what I am doing.  These kids need to learn properly from the start, no bad habits.  I have read everyones advice, and from what I have gathered is you are not very experienced in handling young horses.  What I would suggest you do is contact another 4-H leader who has been involved in 4-H for a long time, who is well respected and looked up to by other groups.  Ask this person to come over and demonstrate for your kids, there is nothing wrong with asking an experienced person to help you out.  When I was an advisor in Ohio I did this quite a bit.  There were many times when several clubs got together to practice together. 

There is not 100% fool proof way.  But the best way is start halter training as soon as a few hours old by placing a foal halter on them.  If you buy a weanling, make sure they have a halter on.  Always, always, always go slow. 

What I do is I never go into the stall or pen.  They always have to come up to me.  If they want their food, they have to come to the gate, if they want their hay, the same thing.  They have to wait.  I always start slow.  Letting them sniff me.  I always keep my eyes lowered.  NEVER raise your voice for any reason.  It takes a long time to build good habits and fractions of a second to develope a bad one.  Trust me, when you raise your voice they will remember that far longer than any positive reinforcement you can give.  Only if you are in extreme danger should you use a loud DEEP voice.  Never shrill.  Shrill to a horse relates fear.  If you ever hear a mare or a stallion scolding another horse it is always in a deep gutteral tone.

I am not an expert, nor claim to be.  I was raised on  a Quarter horse farm, have been involved with horses for 35 of my 39 years.  I started showing at 4 yrs old on a fat pony named Brandy.  My parents were 4-H advisors so I learned from the git go.

Your best bet is too hook up with an experienced horse person to help teach these kids.  I wish you good luck and happy trails.

 

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robdnorm
Reg. Jan 2005
Posted 2006-01-10 6:05 PM (#35274 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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Fortunately, my coworker has pitched in and taken the lead in working with the filly.  Right after we got her, I held her and twisted her to give a shot where she got a cold.  I am simply going to have to work on building her trust.  She is only scared around me when I go in the pen.  Thankfully, my reluctant co worker has stepped in and taken the role of working with the filly.  She is making great strides with the filly and the kids are already being able to handle her.  She was basically halter broke prior to us getting her.  She is just shy of me.  Guess that happened with her associating me with getting a shot. 

Now, I can focus my attention on the colt that was also donated.  He has never had a halter on him prior to us getting him.  I have started working with him and do not have the same issues that I have with the filly.  He is shy of anyone, but is starting to lead.  Most of the first work is done with him with just me and my coworker.  This way kids are not present when we first start out.  That way if something goes wrong, they are not present.  It also adds difficulty when 25 kids are standing around talking while you are concentrating on working a horse. 

I want to thank everyone for all your valuable replies.  They have all come in handy for me in this new adventure.

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huntseat
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2006-01-12 12:21 PM (#35383 - in reply to #33947)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking


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Go get John Lyons, leading and loading.

Don't feed her, dont leave a lead on her(when you bend down she'll kick you in the head.)  Please don't do this in front of the kids, let them watch the video it has audio and John walks you through each step and the reason behind it, which you can't from your lack of knowledge.

Don't watch the video and then think the kids can do it, more folks get over confident and act stupid after just watching it once.  Advise them to only watch.  You'd hate getting sued over some "cowboy" attitude that got a kid hurt.

Ask a trainer to come and do the demo for you.  If it's for 4-H most will donate their time.  I used to quite often.

Always keep yourself safe, afterall they are just horses...

 

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GiddyUpNgo
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2006-01-14 11:57 PM (#35484 - in reply to #34119)
Subject: RE: Difficulty in halter breaking



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Originally written by RichB on 2005-12-15 6:06 PM

"she is now starting to turn her butt to me when I go to catch her in the pen and is starting to kick at me in the process"

Before you can put a halter on her you have to be able to catch her safely.  Leaving a lead rope on the halter in the pen will teach a horse how to give to pressure but how will it teach a horse to stop kicking at it's handler?  From the description given, it doesn't sound like this filly is scared, sounds like she would rather not be handled.  I would disagree that doing round pen work makes a scared horse more scared.  I have seen just the opposite.  I have another Arab (BTW, I have QH's and Arabs) that is very nervous and is not easy to catch in the pasture, she runs off when I try to approach her.  After a short time in the round pen, she is nice and calm.  Not only can I approach her and rub her all over, she will approach and follow me.  The only time I have seen a horse kick out of fear is when they are suprised from the rear or something sneaks up on them. 

 

well said...    As I was reading up to this point, I was wondering why we're worrying about haltering this horse, when something so dangerous needs to be worked out first.....like the kicking.   I also agree....work the filly's butt off each time she turns her butt in...regardless if she kicks or not.  

She needs to learn respect...and then we'll show her the love....

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