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saddle fitting help

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appy4me
Reg. Jul 2005
Posted 2005-10-12 6:31 PM (#31660)
Subject: saddle fitting help



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Posts: 207
100100
Location: Illinois

I need some advice on saddle fitting for my 2 year old QH Gelding.  I realize he isn't done growing, but any tips on getting the saddle to fit better over his "flat" withers!  He is already showing some white hairs (lots) growing in the wither area!!  We have been riding him since July, and I don't want to hurt him or make him any more sore than we already have. He never acts sore or cinchy, but I can tell that the saddle isn't fitting right!  Are there any pads anyone has had any luck with?  I have thought about a different saddle (using a roper now), but I don't want to invest in that if he is going to grow anyway.  We only use him for trail riding.  Thanks for any help!!

Diane

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Dunoir
Reg. Sep 2005
Posted 2005-10-13 7:40 AM (#31691 - in reply to #31660)
Subject: RE: saddle fitting help


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Posts: 648
50010025
Location: Coconut Creek, FL

Saddle fitting can be really tough and it can cause alot of issues that can continue to affect the horse later on.  I had a very wide mutton withered QH that I even trailered to a saddle shop that had tons of used and new saddles to try.  I finally found one that kinda fit, but the one that really did fit him was a Bob Marshall treeless.  I've had great success with this saddle 9 years later and use it on my 3 year old TW.  I've had this saddle on at least 25 different horses and the only one it didn't fit was a very overweight horse. 

     Changing of pads isn't always the answer.  I cringe when I see people that think a saddle that's too tight will work with more padding.  If your shoes are too tight, do you want to put on 2 pairs of socks?

     Put the saddle on the horse without any pads and check all around to see where it isn't fitting the horse.  See if there are big gaps or if it's pushing down too much which is probably the case.  White hairs are caused when there is extreme pressure, the hair folicles die, and turn white.  Also check out the dry spots after riding - if there are dry spots, again too much pressure. 

     See if you can try out some of your friends saddles on him, again without any padding first to see if it sits level, has room down along the gullet, etc.  Make sure the saddle is positioned correctly on the back as many people tend to bring them to far forward.  Your horse's shoulder must have freedom of movement as well.

   Please keep in mind that I am only passing on info that I have learned.  There are far more knowledgable people and if you check the internet, I'm sure you can find more info. 

    Poor saddle fit can lead to back problems, saddling issues, poor attitude, etc. 

Good luck and I hope you are able to resolve this quickly.

 

 

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Montana
Reg. Sep 2005
Posted 2005-10-13 11:14 AM (#31707 - in reply to #31691)
Subject: RE: saddle fitting help


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Posts: 28
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Location: Montana

The Pros and Cons of Saddling by Linda Parelli

As more of our students discover the joy of riding bareback, many of them start to hate riding in a saddle! “My horse is better bareback… I ride better… can I do my Levels without a saddle?”
When horses seem happier being ridden bareback and riders ride better without a saddle, something’s not right!
Here’s what I’ve discovered…
Most saddles are not designed to help riders ride naturally, and most saddles are not designed to help horses use their backs.
I want to share what I’ve learned over the years about saddles that has led to a lot of changes. Naturally, it’s important to look at the issues of saddling from both the human’s and the horse’s points of view. I’ll address problems and then give you some solutions to think about.

Your Seat
Where the rider is concerned, being able to sit in a deep, balanced and connected way is everything. I’ve identified and named a spot called the “Balance Point” which is somewhere between the seat bones and the tailbone. If a rider is sitting up straight, is on his or her crotch and can feel their seat bones — this is NOT the spot.
But if from that position they roll backward toward their tail so they are sitting on their flesh (buns!), then that’s more like it! It’s the opposite of what riders are usually taught. When the rider finds their Balance Point, both the horse and the rider make amazing changes. For the rider alone, back and knee pain when riding can disappear immediately.
When riding on the seat bones, the spine is forced to curve inward in the lumbar region. Then because shock absorption is impaired, the rider tenses the lower back muscles, which can begin to ache because of the constant contraction from bracing.
When positioned on the Balance Point, the top of the pelvis is tipped backward, the tailbone (coccyx) curls under the body and the spine can flex outward like a spring. In this position the spine is stronger and more elastic, is unaffected by shock, and the lower back muscles can contract and release as needed.
In my Fluidity teachings, I have a saying: “Whatever you want the horse to do in his body, you have to do in yours.” This means if your back is hollow and tense, it will cause the horse to be hollow and tense. If your lower back can round up and be springy, you’ll enable it in your horse. Unfortunately, many riders and horses are forced to have hollow and tense backs because of the saddle.

Freedom to Move
The act of riding demands a certain amount of movement in the pelvis and spine, which is easy when riding bareback. Some saddles, however, are very restrictive of the rider’s pelvis. Their rigid structure demands that the rider sit on their seat bones instead of their flesh and can actually make accessing the Balance Point very difficult, if not impossible. You can better understand this by looking at the shape of the saddle’s seat and noting where the deepest point is when on the horse. Most of the time that point lies toward the middle of the seat, when it really needs to be toward the back. Your weight will gravitate to the lowest point of the saddle, so if it’s toward the middle, you’re in trouble because it will force your pelvis upright, hollow your back, put your weight in the stirrups and prevent you from having a deep and fluid seat.
Some Western saddles have artificially built-up seats that ensure the rider’s weight is placed more at the back of the saddle. This is better than having the deepest part of the seat in the middle. However, these built-up seats can also be restrictive in other ways. Any time the rider is limited in their pelvic area it affects their ability to ride with fluidity, which in turn affects the horse.

The Body Can Talk
How do you know you’re not accessing your balance point?
Your body will tell you: Aching lower back, sore knees, sore shoulders, stiffness after riding, over-developed muscles in the front of your neck, arms, and lower back especially. Interestingly, your horse will often display the same problems and have difficulty coming off the forehand, engaging his hindquarters and possibly have issues with cantering, vertical flexion, flying changes, rounding his back, etc.

The Effect on the Horse
A saddle can either aid or restrict the horse’s ability to use his back. Most saddles are much too narrow through the gullet, thereby putting pressure too close to the spine, squeezing the horse on or behind the shoulder blades (scapula). A wider gullet will spread the rider’s weight out onto the rib cage and in this way give freedom to the horse’s spine and its ligaments.
When a horse cannot use his whole body to move, especially with a rider on his back, contortions are inevitable because the horse is trying to protect himself. Some horses are quite tolerant and put up with the difficulty as best they can, but with reduced performance. Others are visibly unhappy and will simply buck you off or try to run away from the difficulty!

Good Gullet, Bad Gullet
In my research I’ve observed that English styles of saddles exert more pressure on the muscle around the withers and spine because most of them are narrow in the gullet. Pressing into the muscle stops the muscle from moving properly. As a result, the muscle shrinks or atrophies.
Interestingly, Western saddles appear not to damage the muscle of the horse’s back as much because they are usually much wider.

Good position, Bad position
Saddles that are placed too far forward interfere with the horse’s ability to move his shoulders; they block the scapula (shoulder blade). When this happens the horse will roll his scapula forward to avoid the pressure. This shortens the stride and stiffens the back, making for a less-than-comfortable ride. And if you’re uncomfortable, imagine what the horse is feeling! White hairs and dry patches are telltale signs of pressure and you’ll be interested to note that they are usually where the scapula slams into the saddle as it moves back and forth.
English saddles are supposed to allow horses to flex their backs right and left, up and down, in pursuits demanding high levels of engagement such as dressage and jumping. However, many do not really allow the horse to do that. The bars are short enough to not block the body’s lateral flexions, but because they drive pressure into the muscle, the horse usually can’t arch his back properly.
Western saddles have a wider gullet, which should allow the back to move and swing more. However, if the bars are long or “rockered” too much (to mold to a hollowed back), they will prevent the horse from using his whole body when moving. That’s why some muscles become overdeveloped while others are underdeveloped.
Western saddles were originally designed to ride in all day, to be comfortable and functional for the working cowboy and to distribute his weight over a larger area of the horse’s back. When mostly walking and doing long distance trots on a loose rein, the horse carries itself in an elongated posture and does not need to move its back a great deal, so the working stock saddle did the job.
These days, however, most Western riders are not working cowboys and want to do more athletic movements and sports oriented maneuvers like reining, cutting, Western dressage, natural horsemanship. As soon as you ask a horse to round up his back, the shortcomings in a saddle show up quickly.
Another positive feature of those working saddles is that they position the rider more toward the horse’s hindquarters which takes the stress off the front legs. Modern saddles tend to place the rider too far forward, thus weighting the front end too much.
English saddles, by comparison, were not designed to ride in all day and will create problems for the horse because the rider’s weight is not widely distributed enough, thereby focusing pressure over a smaller zone. It’s a little extreme, but imagine someone stepping on your foot wearing army boots as compared to high heels — there’s a big difference in the psi (pounds per square inch). In addition, English saddles often place the rider up close to the horse’s shoulders, weighting the front end and making engagement difficult. Next time you see someone riding, examine how much horse is in front of the rider compared to behind them! You’ll see how the weight of the rider can really interfere with the horse’s ability to lift his front end.
Good saddles help horses push their backs up to be stronger and to distribute the rider’s weight. From a rider’s point of view, saddles offer a level of comfort and security. Stirrups enable us to do more with our horses – higher levels of collection, jump great heights, ride hundreds of miles, slides and spins and perform amazing cutting maneuvers. A lot of that would be very difficult bareback!

A Horse in Motion is a Different Shape
First, it’s important to understand how a horse needs to use his body. From there you need to know how the saddle should be shaped and positioned so it doesn’t interfere with the horse’s potential when moving and allows him to use his whole body. A restrictive saddle will change a horse, so imagine how the situation is accentuated when the rider adds their weight.
Many saddles are “fitted” with the horse at rest. His muscles are relaxed, his back is down and his weight is on the front end. As soon as the horse starts moving, this posture changes and should be allowed to change or the horse will adopt a defensive posture.
1. Where the power is: When moving athletically and free, a horse will naturally transfer his weight to his hindquarters because this is where the power is. There is a great mass of muscle in the hindquarters and a huge “spring.” This spring is made up of the bones and joints of the pelvis, hip joint, stifle, hock and fetlock. Compare this to the front legs of the horse where the main springs available to the horse are in the fetlock. The shoulder and elbow joints are limited when under load. When riding the horse we have to do everything possible to enable him to carry his weight on the hindquarters.
2. Shoulder freedom: Investigate the range of movement required in the horse’s scapula or shoulder blade. Find the back of the scapula when the horse is standing at rest, then lift the horse’s knee up and notice how far back the scapula moves. If the saddle interferes with this range of movement, the horse will shift his shoulders forward. This shortens the stride and puts the weight on the forehand. To put the weight on his hindquarters, the horse has to be able to lift his shoulders up and back.
3. Allowing for movement: Gauge the shape of your horse’s back at the 2nd scapula position. This is done easily with a flexi-curve (available at office supply stores) and is also possible with a wire coat hanger. Now compare this shape with the front of your saddle. In most cases the saddle is clearly much too narrow for the horse. Remember that as soon as the horse moves, things change. The dimensions of the horse will increase so the saddle needs to be even wider. In my Fluidity Courses we measure a slender horse and then compare that measurement to 20 to 30 saddles. We are lucky if two or three saddles will accommodate that horse’s needs. They are usually Western saddles or uniquely wide English saddles like the Balance Saddle I ride in.
4. Feel it yourself: When a horse can lift his back, he can bring his hindquarters more underneath himself. To get an appreciation of this, get on all fours and crawl around. As you do, experiment with hollowing your back (point your tail bone to the sky) and rounding your back (point your tail bone to the ground). The effects it will have on your comfort and ability to move are profound. When your back is up, you can use your whole body to move. When it’s hollow, you’ll find yourself overusing certain muscles and joints and it will be revealing to note where you feel discomfort or even pain.

Uh oh, Decision Time!
Now that we know what a horse is going to need, the next thing to address is your own saddle.
We’ve established that most saddles are positioned too far forward and are too narrow and / or restrictive on the back, and are too small or restrictive for the rider. If yours is one of these there are two options:
1. Sell your saddle and get one that will be better for you and your horse, or
2. Improve your saddle fit with a special pad and shims, and then buy the ideal saddle later on if you can!
Of course it would be nice to not have to sell your saddle and buy another one, but in some cases there is only so much you can do. With the help of this article you’ll know if your saddle can be helped enough, especially once you read the next section on pads and shims.

Because Saddles Shouldn’t Fit Perfectly, They Need an Interface
Saddles are static. Horses are dynamic, which means they move and change shape as they move. We’ve already established that the saddle should be wider than the horse, and in addition, the horse’s ability to move needs to be promoted when under saddle.
Think about this for a moment. If you were a horse, you would want your rider to move fluidly with you rather than stiffly or against you. Sometimes riding feels easier bareback because there is nothing interfering with the energy flowing between horse and rider, and a saddle can interfere terribly if it restricts either the horse or the rider.
So good saddle design is one thing, but a good saddle pad is essential. It can take a problematic saddle and improve the way it feels to a horse. With the right pad I’ve seen aggravated, tense and impulsive horses settle within seconds; unwilling horses offer to go and keep going; horses that bucked or ran off at the canter settle quickly into a sweeter, smoother gait.

Good Pad, Bad Pad
Many of us have piled on the pads, thinking they offer more protection, when in fact they start to act like putting too many socks inside your shoes. They increase pressure and also place you too high above the horse’s back... and horses still get sore backs! Let’s remember that the sore back is often more from strain than it is from impact.
Over the years we’ve tried and used hundreds of pads. In 2001
Pat and I were invited to be part of testing a new pad in the making. The goal of the pad was to be the ideal interface between the horse’s back and the static saddle. The most interesting part of the pad was the use of an air and foam ‘mattress’ technology that is widely known in the camping and medical field as ThermaRest. With just a thin layer, it is capable of evening-out pressure points and creating an extraordinary surface for sleeping or sitting on. The ThermaRest technology is what is inside this revolutionary saddle pad called TheraFlex.
The TheraFlex pad allows the rider to feel close to the horse and enables the horse’s muscles to move despite the static saddle. Because it stops the saddle from jarring, the rider is able to feel the horse more, and greater fluidity can be achieved.
After using the pad for two years and helping many students with them, my new research around the Balance Point effect led me to examine the problems with many of the saddles people were riding in. I discovered that more had to be done to lift the front end of the saddle.
I felt that shims were the answer, so I called on Alan Brownlie, the pad’s inventor, to help me with the design of shims that would lift the front of the saddle away from the scapula and move the deepest part of the seat back. TheraShims were born.
The results were instantaneous and stunning. Horses sighed with relief and dramatically improved their way of moving. Riders felt the difference too, especially when it also meant they could now access their Balance Point almost without trying.

To Shim or Not To Shim...
To shim or not, and how many shims, depends on the individual horse and the saddle more than anything else. For example, shims would be essential if the horse is…
• downhill
• atrophied
• rotated in the scapula
• wears a wide-gullet saddle or one that’s too narrow
• needs to become more ‘uphill’
After helping hundreds of horses have a better experience with their saddle, I have found only one that did not need a shim… yet. That horse was sway backed and probably best not ridden!
TheraShims come in two thicknesses: thick and thin. So far, I’ve found that most horses need two to three shims because of being downhill in posture or having saddles that are much to narrow for them.
It’s relatively easy to tell how much shimming you’re going to need. Have someone help you lift the front of the saddle when it’s on the horse (no pad) and keep lifting it until the deepest point of the saddle is at the back of the seat. (In the case of an artificially built-up seat, the bars of the saddle tree need to come level with the ground.)
Estimate how big the space is between the horse’s 2nd scapula mark and the underside of the saddle where it would contact the horse. Then stack the shims on top of each other until it basically equates to the same measurement.
Next, subtract one thick shim which represents the front of the Theraflex pad. The shims that are left will tell you how many need to be inserted into the pad. When inserting more than one shim, stagger them by approximately an inch which makes the attaching straps sit one behind the other.
The pad and shims will now balance the saddle for the rider and take the weight off the front end of the horse. Aaaaahhh! Such relief!
I recommend owning at least one thick and one thin TheraShim. Even better, one thick and two thin… this way you can make a lot of adjustments as the horse develops (or if you have more than one horse), especially if you have a horse that needs a lot of rebuilding in its back and shoulder muscles. And don’t be afraid to experiment — sometimes ‘feel’ will add to science!

Can Every Saddle be Made to Work?
I wish I could say yes. However, there are some situations where it won’t:
• Saddles with flexible trees may not work with an air-foam pad unless you use very little air. There is too much movement in the bars unlike a regular saddle.
• A saddle that sits the rider high above the horse’s back will do better with the TheraFlex pad, but reaching a more ideal closeness may mean getting a different saddle.
• An English saddle that is quite extreme in design may end up having the pommel come up too high or the flaps come forward in an odd-looking way. It may not be a problem; it might just look weird.
• A very narrow saddle on a wide horse may need a lot of shim and as a result become too unstable on the horse’s back. It will be fine for riding slow and right, but if you’re going to speed around, you might have slipping issues.
• A saddle whose bars are too long for the horse will still restrict its ability to flex laterally.
• A saddle that has a crooked or twisted tree, or has a screw sticking out of the bar into the horse just has to be fixed or thrown out!
• For the rider, a seat that is too small can be made to feel better from the Balance Point perspective but still be too restrictive for the rider. A bigger saddle seat is a must.
The TheraFlex pad can be used under treeless saddles or the Parelli Bareback Pad, and staggered shims can sometimes shift the balance point back.

Buying a Saddle with Confidence
With the information I’ve shared, you should be able to buy a saddle with renewed confidence. There are good saddles out there and you’ll be able to find them now that you know what you’re looking for.
I would presume you’ve already decided whether you want an English or Western style of saddle, so all you’ll need is a wire hanger and your Balance Point!
• The hanger needs to be bent into the shape of your horse’s back, the measurement taken at the 2nd scapula position. (Unfortunately a flexi-curve won’t hold its shape as you shop.) This will help you select the right width of saddle…. one that is bigger than the hanger shape so your horse has room to move and grow. It’s a great idea to trace the shape of the hanger or flexi-curve onto paper as a record of how your horse used to be and compare the changes over time!
• Your Balance Point is the only way you can assess whether the seat will let you access it! If the seat is too small it will be difficult — the cantle (back) of the saddle may touch you in the lower back, the swells or bucking rolls on a Western saddle will push against your thighs when you hang your legs down, and knee rolls on a dressage saddle may push your thighs down and backward too much. You should have plenty of room to move but not so much room that you get lost in the saddle. It’s the Goldilocks porridge principle… not too much, not too little, just right! I used to ride in a 16.5-inch English dressage saddle. After learning that room is important, I was guided into an 18-inch seat. (Note: English and Western sizing are different.)
Be careful about buying saddles you can’t measure or sit in unless you know they are designed to meet the ideals discussed in this article. Even then, you should check it out for both horse and rider to make sure it’s right.
Stay tuned for a new saddle that’s now in development, which is a fusion of good English and Western principles!

Horses That Shouldn’t be Ridden
Some horses are so damaged and weakened by bad saddles and un-savvy riding that they either should not be ridden or should be physically rehabilitated first. Here are my thoughts:
Don’t ride horses that are:
• lame
• in pain
• crippled in some way
Rehabilitate horses that are:
• sway backed
• weak in the back (hollow, no muscle)
• have weak/locking stifles
A good way to physically rehabilitate these horses is by playing with them on the ground, on long lines and on hills and dales at slow and consistent gaits for a good 20 minutes — 10 minutes each way without stopping except for a five-minute rest between direction changes. Repeat this exercise daily until they find out how to use their whole body when moving and let go of their stiff and defensive movements. I call it ‘hill therapy.’ What does not work is lots of stop and start, sudden, jerky or hard maneuvers and turns.
Important: When doing the hill therapy, your horse will often want to slow down and change gait which you must allow — they’ll do it most when making the biggest changes. If you try to make them stay in the trot or canter, they’ll brace emotionally and physically which is counter productive.
Restoring a more natural way of going and overcoming habituated, weak and unnatural postures can take anywhere from six weeks to some months, depending on how severe their condition or how much time you can spend with them.
Think about it — there can’t be a real partnership if you don’t care about the horse’s experience or if you don’t listen to and act on his feedback. Investing some time in restoring your horse’s physical health can be one of the most important things you do in the relationship. And you can still play with them because 50% of the Parelli Program involves ground work! When you start riding again, do it with Fluidity. Become obsessed about what it takes to truly be in harmony with your horse’s movement, therefore ending friction, bouncing and jarring. Become one.

Who’s the Judge of What is “Correct?”
I don’t think any of us are qualified to judge what is really “correct” in our saddling or riding. But the horse is and the feedback is instant. What we need to do is develop our ability to read and understand what it is they are trying to tell us, and to never ignore their feedback, nor blame it on them as “resistance”. Thank goodness they have such forgiving spirits.
Acknowledgements
I have many teachers to thank for what they have helped me to understand so far about horses, saddles, pads, and riding: Pat Parelli, Carol Brett, Lesley Ann Taylor, Gavin Scofield, Alan Brownlie, my horses, my students and their horses.
And of course, the research continues... To learn more, check out the Fluidity Courses held only at Pat Parelli Centers in Colorado and Florida.

When a horse is restricted by the saddle he will let you know. Sometimes it’s very direct:
• ears back
• swishing tail
• hollow back
• unwilling to go forward
• short and choppy strides
• won’t canter or bucks going into the canter or can’t sustain the canter
• heavy on the forehand
• difficult to “collect”
• behind the vertical, breaks at the third vertebra
• impulsive, stiff and rushing gaits

Other times it’s indirect but easy to identify by the shape and feel of their body, especially once you know what to look for. Things like…
• muscle atrophy behind the scapula
• rotated scapula (like round shoulders on a human)
• dry spots near or on the shoulders after riding
• downhill horse, looks like it has short front legs
• poorly muscled back, long back, sore back (especially the lower back)
• irregular muscle development
• poor top line
• overdeveloped underline (under the neck, chest, belly)
• sore joints
• locking stifle
• damaged joint cartilage
• mysterious and persistent front end lameness

What a Horse Needs
A horse needs a saddle system that…
• Is wide through the gullet,allowing full use of his back muscles. The saddle should be wider than the horse.
• Is designed to sit behind the scapula without tipping down and increasing the weight at the front of the saddle.
• Is not too long in the bars so as to restrict lateral flexion through the body.
• Distributes the rider’s weight over the horse’s ribcage, reducing pressure (psi) and making it easier to carry the weight.
• Cinches or girths are positioned in a V-shape that secures the front and the back of the saddle, thus preventing too much pressure behind the shoulders.
• Allows him to lift his front end and his withers.
• Allows the rider to use their Balance Point, making it possible for the horse to round his back and bring his hind legs under his body so he can use his whole body to move.

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Dunoir
Reg. Sep 2005
Posted 2005-10-13 3:12 PM (#31723 - in reply to #31660)
Subject: RE: saddle fitting help


Elite Veteran


Posts: 648
50010025
Location: Coconut Creek, FL

wow!  good info to print and keep for reference. thanks for sharing.

 

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appy4me
Reg. Jul 2005
Posted 2005-10-13 3:50 PM (#31725 - in reply to #31660)
Subject: RE: saddle fitting help



Veteran


Posts: 207
100100
Location: Illinois
Wow for sure!! Thanks for everyone's great information!! I now have a place to start from.
Diane
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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2005-10-13 9:30 PM (#31732 - in reply to #31660)
Subject: RE: saddle fitting help




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Location: KY
You might want to look into the Cashel SoftSaddle as an alternative saddle for young horses.
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hconley
Reg. Feb 2005
Posted 2005-10-13 10:50 PM (#31736 - in reply to #31660)
Subject: RE: saddle fitting help


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 378
100100100252525
Location: Nebraska
A saddle should be purchased for the type of horse and the horse should be conditioned for the saddle. There are things you can do to "tweak" the fit. Even if you do purchased a custom made saddle with a high dollar pad then cut him in half with the cinch, he will end up saddle sore. On young horses make the time under saddle shorter with minor adjustments over time to make the fit good.
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budgoetz
Reg. Feb 2005
Posted 2005-10-17 9:00 PM (#31886 - in reply to #31660)
Subject: RE: saddle fitting help


Member


Posts: 18

Location: Verona, KY

Lots of information at this site, you can also ask questions about specific saddles and how they might fit your horse.

http://www.dailyequine.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

 

 

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