Posted 2005-07-19 3:04 PM (#28267) Subject: Brakes without Brake Controller
Expert
Posts: 1391 Location: North of Detroit, MI
Is it possible to tow a trailer that has brakes without a brake controller installed in the truck? AND...have the trailer brakes work?
If yes, would the brakes on the trailer work correctly?
If yes, is it a matter of doing some electrical wiring magic on the tow vehicle or within the connector?
If no. Thanks.
In the "old days"... before brake controllers were invented or in "common" use... was it because trailers did not have brakes? or was it because newer trucks had electronics that required a brake controller?
Posted 2005-07-19 3:17 PM (#28269 - in reply to #28267) Subject: RE: Brakes without Brake Controller
Expert
Posts: 2953 Location: North Carolina
Some trailers have "surge" brakes. There is no controller in the Tow Vehicle. When the TV slows the trailer pushes into the TV's hitch, the trailer's hitch has a piston that then activates the trailer brakes. (This is the Brenderup system)
Haven't yet heard of a system for electric brakes that does not connect to the TV's electric system.
Posted 2005-07-19 4:33 PM (#28271 - in reply to #28267) Subject: RE: Brakes without Brake Controller
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Posts: 2689
Originally written by gabz on 2005-07-19 3:04 PM
Is it possible to tow a trailer that has brakes without a brake controller installed in the truck? AND...have the trailer brakes work?
If yes, would the brakes on the trailer work correctly?
If yes, is it a matter of doing some electrical wiring magic on the tow vehicle or within the connector?
If no. Thanks.
In the "old days"... before brake controllers were invented or in "common" use... was it because trailers did not have brakes? or was it because newer trucks had electronics that required a brake controller?
Possible ? Yes.
Practical to have them work "correctly" ? Yes and no.
Yes, surge brakes do this and are still used on boat trailers, largely because dipping electric brakes into water at launch/retrieve time is thought to be bad for electrical thangs.
It would be possible to hack up something that merely works off the truck's brake lights, but you would need to "modulate" it, or suffer an "all or nothing" braking condition. You would also need a relay for something like that as an extra 12 amps would probably blow a fuse on brake lights.
Is this what you had in mind ? to just tap into the brake wiring ?
Please DON'T !
If you want/need to just move an EMPTY trailer to/from a neighbor's place with a truck that doesn't have a controller... and if you can be sure you won't go over about 20 MPH, I might do something like that if the distance was short.
I've always LIKED the way my boat trailer brakes proportional to how hard the trailer pushes the truck - and then backs off, without hunting/surging. It is a 'needs based' algorithm, always provides adequate braking, never locks up the wheels. Loaded or empty, it just adjusts/adapts perfectly and doesn't even need to be hooked up, its just THERE.
I think something GOOD could be created from the mechanism of a surge brake coupler and master cylinder. Seal it off with a pressure transducer and run the signal through an amp to feed the trailer's electric brakes...
Investment capital anyone ? It would probably be expen$ive to get qualified/certified for use on the public roads.
Posted 2005-07-19 5:18 PM (#28274 - in reply to #28267) Subject: RE: Brakes without Brake Controller
Expert
Posts: 1391 Location: North of Detroit, MI
Someone I know has been towing her 2H, slant with ramp, fully enclosed BP with no brake controller...for a couple of years. Sometimes with 2 horses in the trailer. Granted, she's using a 3/4 ton... but now that she's graduated to a GN and is selling the BP we are trying to determine (without me going to her house or taking the BP to a shop) if it even has brakes. It does have a 6 or 7 pin plug... so I'm guessing it has brakes (otherwise, it would probably have one of the littel 4 prong plugs). The trailer is a mid-late 1990s... Linville??
Now she has the brake controller (prodigy) installed on the 3/4 ton for the GN and wants to hook up the BP and is questioning how it will work, etc.
I told her to listen for the "hum" while her hubby depressed the brake pedal. (I suspect that if there IS an emergency brake system, the battery is dead... but... also, if it HAS an emergency brake system, then I think we can 'assume' it has elec brakes. How well they work, that's another story.)
Overall, I'm trying to get a little more background and make sure I don't think one thing or another that couldn't be possible... I'm thinking that the brakes on the trailer could be completely frozen or hardly used.... (my choice is take it to a shop - let them dismantle it and show me...).
So - any thoughts on the situation are appreciated. It's one thing to write repair manuals with specs, it's another to guess through emails and descriptions. : )
Posted 2005-07-19 5:56 PM (#28275 - in reply to #28267) Subject: RE: Brakes without Brake Controller
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Posts: 2689
YIKES !!!
OK, lessee...
The 6 or 7 pin plug could have been put on at any time, perhaps to just match up with the truck, or perhaps it is wired to one of the several standards.
The chances are good that the breakaway battery has been getting charge all this time - though I still think most of them die anyway for lack of winter charging, but that is another issue.
The instructions that came with the brake controller she just got SHOULD help determine what is happening with the BP. Just go through the set-up procedure and troubleshoot things that don't produce the expected results, e.g. does a little green light come on when the trailer is plugged in ? does it turn red when she operates the hand control ? stuff like that.
I'd guess it has brakes, that they're not very worn and that they are probably not "frozen". I'd also guess that there is quite a bit of surface rust inside the drums and if you start activating the brakes they will TALK AT YOU ! This is no worse than a car/truck that hasn't been driven for a couple of years while SOMEONE was away at college. You'll hear them ok if you do a walking speed driveway test, they'll most likely screach. It would probably be best to pull at least one hub before you do anything else.
Oh, I forgot the relationship/neighbor thing... that could be touchy. If she hears the brakes screach she'll probably want to un-plug the controller. You might have to suffer the screach all the way to the shop if you don't want to pull it apart - if its more than about 20 miles it will probably all wear smooth by then anyway and the Tech won't have anything to work on.
Gee, I think this is EXACTLY like writing a tech manual (-:
Well, a tech manual that would be of SOME use to a Tech.
Posted 2005-07-19 7:12 PM (#28281 - in reply to #28267) Subject: RE: Brakes without Brake Controller
Elite Veteran
Posts: 634 Location: Tipton, IN
Ok, it's simple. If it was manufactured after like 1980 it has to have trailer brakes. DOT requires all trailers with 3500 pound or higher axles to have brakes on them. You'll see these fly by night 16'ft trailers without them on ebay, but if you get stopped, you'll get hammered if there is no brakes on the trailer.
Posted 2005-07-19 8:33 PM (#28288 - in reply to #28274) Subject: RE: Brakes without Brake Controller
Expert
Posts: 2953 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by gabz on 2005-07-19 4:18 PM
the BP we are trying to determine (without me going to her house or taking the BP to a shop) if it even has brakes.
I'd first ask her to look under the trailer... Look at the opposite wheels. If she can see the drum or drums inside the wheels, that's the first step. You'll have to describe a drum brake or post her a pic of one.
Then, if she has drum or drums... then check their operation and condition.
Posted 2005-07-20 4:04 PM (#28323 - in reply to #28302) Subject: RE: Brakes without Brake Controller
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Posts: 2689
Originally written by gabz on 2005-07-20 10:18 AM
Thanks everyone... I'll be stopping by her place this weekend to help her figure it out. I'm sure we'll get an answer one way or another.
I am still having trouble stopping my head from shaking back and forth that she hauled all that time without a BC.
Me too... WOW !
Profile: Drives slowly, holds back from other vehicles, slows WAY down for green lights, doesn't tow far or often, wears out truck brakes frequently, is LUCKY !!!
BTW, I think most of this is answered as soon as she plugs the BP in.
If there ARE electric brakes the controller should recognize them, most likely with a green LED that turns orange and then red as the truck's brake pedal is pressed. Yup, I think they're there on any non-antique horse trailer.
Posted 2005-07-20 5:40 PM (#28328 - in reply to #28323) Subject: RE: Brakes without Brake Controller
Expert
Posts: 1391 Location: North of Detroit, MI
oh, I forgot to give you guys a mental image of her driveway... long and steep, 90 degree turn at the bottom, narrow culvert over the ditch. Dirt/ gravel. As a matter of fact we were joking (taking bets) on how many times she will have trouble at the entrance to the driveway with the GN....2 lane country 55 mph road. no shoulders to speak of. go slowly...
I shouldn't say this, but she took her outside "porch light" off and ripped up a corner of the overhang on my garage one visit to my place... - with the BP... sigh.
Posted 2005-07-21 12:37 PM (#28366 - in reply to #28323) Subject: RE: Brakes without Brake Controller
Expert
Posts: 1416 Location: sc
reg,whats wrong with the first part of the "profile"? looks like safe driving practices to me, but i tend to agree with the "lucky" part too.btw gabz said this indivdual has a prodigy, it will respond with a "C" in the display if it locates the brakes. surely youre not using anything else?(if you are what is it and do you like it), unless its the "brake smart", and id like to give that one a shot myself.
Brakes without Brake Controller
