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Hauling Question

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brrlrcer3
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2005-06-21 8:59 PM (#26902)
Subject: Hauling Question


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Posts: 6

I have a question!

 

I have a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500. It is a heavy duty little truck and hauls my two horse steel trailer (GAWR 2500) with two horses really well. So that is around 4500 pulling a bumper pull (with two horses)

I am looking to get a 4 horse gooseneck, but i am not sure of the GAWR, probably around 5500.  Do you think my truck would haul this ok? The people I am buying it from hauled it up to Maine from Tennessee with a truck just like mine and they said they could hardly tell it was there, but they only had furniture in it. Thank you for your input!



Edited by brrlrcer3 2005-06-21 9:00 PM
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Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-21 9:20 PM (#26903 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Hi and welcome to the forum.
This question is asked and answered many times in other threads, but at a quick guess I'd say a 4 horse GN is likely to overload your truck.
The numbers you need for the truck are payload, GVWR and GCWR. The numbers you need from the trailer are GVWR, some reasonable estimate of it's laden weight with the number of horses you will carry and a fair allowance for tack, feed, water, whatever you take with you. Somewhere between 15 and 25% of that total should be "carried" on the gooseneck coupler, your truck's payload capacity needs to be able to take that (unlikely in my opinion with a 1/2 ton truck and a 4 horse GN trailer).
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huntseat
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-21 9:56 PM (#26905 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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I bet my truck on those trailer numbers being over for your truck.  If your trailer states it can haul 10K pounds your truck must also be rated to tow 10K or more.  The law won't care if you never plan on putting all of the 10K pounds in the trailer or not.  You can and may be fined and I believe it's very $$$$$!  Check your state laws and the state laws for any place you'll be towing to and through.
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hosspuller
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-21 10:03 PM (#26907 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Welcome +1

Reg has answered your original question well.

I would add, the largest issue with a light truck hauling a heavy trailer is NOT pulling it, but stopping it.  The engines are powerful, the suspension can be upgraded with air springs, the tranny can get a honking big cooler, etc.  But, You will need to stop it eventually.  You might even want it to stop right now!  But like the Titantic, it will roll on. 

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TXDressageGrl
Reg. May 2005
Posted 2005-06-21 10:57 PM (#26908 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Posts: 14

Location: Texas
I personally would not consider pulling a four horse trailer with a 1/2 ton truck. I just purchased a 3/4 ton truck because I did not want to over load my 1/2 ton truck with my new two horse gooseneck trailer. I can't imagine pulling a four horse. However, the tow capacity on my 1/2 ton truck was 6500 pounds - yours may be more. Safety first!
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Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-22 6:46 AM (#26911 - in reply to #26908)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Originally written by TXDressageGrl on 2005-06-21 10:57 PM

I personally would not consider pulling a four horse trailer with a 1/2 ton truck. I just purchased a 3/4 ton truck because I did not want to over load my 1/2 ton truck with my new two horse gooseneck trailer. I can't imagine pulling a four horse. However, the tow capacity on my 1/2 ton truck was 6500 pounds - yours may be more. Safety first!


Not disagreeing with you (well, maybe a bit) but the trailer should have brakes that are adequate to stop it.
I've had the plug come out and even with a 1 ton truck (about 7100 lbs) and an empty 4 horse gooseneck trailer (unknown weight, but no LQ) there just aren't enough brakes on that truck for anything more than a modest slowing down. Don't ever count on the truck's brakes to stop anything more than just the truck.

Anyway; I think the priorities are SAFETY, legality, reliability.
The OP should be aware that if overloaded (even if only "technically") one's insurance is likely to be invalidated, which could lead to all sorts of liability issues - as well as another ticket for being uninsured.

Review other posts, get the numbers for your truck and proposed trailer, have the trailer weighed if necessary and weighed at the coupler with a representative load. Going for a more modest trailer or a bigger truck may not be attractive, but could be a lot less expensive than hauling when overloaded.
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-22 7:18 AM (#26912 - in reply to #26911)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Originally written by Reg on 2005-06-22 7:46 AM
(well, maybe a bit) but the trailer should have brakes that are adequate to stop it.I've had the plug come out and even with a 1 ton truck (about 7100 lbs) and an empty 4 horse gooseneck trailer (unknown weight, but no LQ) there just aren't enough brakes on that truck for anything more than a modest slowing down. Don't ever count on the truck's brakes to stop anything more than just the truck.Anyway; I think the priorities are SAFETY, legality, reliability.The OP should be aware that if overloaded (even if only "technically") one's insurance is likely to be invalidated, which could lead to all sorts of liability issues - as well as another ticket for being uninsured.
i agree with that. the trailer will have adequate breaks if the axles are not overloaded. the ability to stop the load is one of the deciding factors when the axle is given its weight rating. my axle manual basically says the same thing. never have understood how anyone can think a bigger truck will make a difference, and i hear that alot with my smaller tow vehicle, i have to correct a lot of people. like reg said, pull the plug one time on the bigger trucks and youll see just how much the trailer brakes are doing.
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-22 8:09 AM (#26914 - in reply to #26905)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Originally written by huntseat on 2005-06-21 10:56 PM

  If your trailer states it can haul 10K pounds your truck must also be rated to tow 10K or more.  The law won't care if you never plan on putting all of the 10K pounds in the trailer or not.  You can and may be fined and I believe it's very $$$$$!  Check your state laws and the state laws for any place you'll be towing to and through.
id like to see that in print if anyone has a link please. apparently texas and detroit can fine me for just going to work....unless its different for a cdl.
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hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-22 8:34 AM (#26915 - in reply to #26912)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Bigger trucks = bigger wheels = bigger brakes = better braking.  Of course the trailer brakes are rated for the trailer weight but I sure don't want to depend on just my trailer to stop my rig.
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barry
Reg. May 2005
Posted 2005-06-22 8:38 AM (#26916 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question



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In Missouri you are required to "tag" your truck based on total weight of truck and any trailer/load you have attached. They have 6,000 lb tags and 12,000 and over tags. Should you be weighed you can be in violation of not having the proper tag. They allow you to tag a 1/2 ton truck with a 12,000 tag because my wife purchased my first tag and thought that is what we needed. They do have two other categories for each of these weights - local meaning generally used in a 50-mile area and non-local. How this is enforced I have no clue. I check and you can drive further than 50 miles as long as it is not on a regular basis???

I have never heard of anyone being fined for their truck being under-rated for the load. I have never seen a 4-horse trailer stopped at a truck weight station either.
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hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-22 8:52 AM (#26918 - in reply to #26916)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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I personally know of some people who were stopped and fined.  Also, depending on the state, you are required to stop at the border and show health papers.  I don't think it's wise to be over the limits then either.
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FordLvr
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2005-06-22 9:17 AM (#26920 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Location: Summerville, SC
I've pulled all kinds of trailers with all kinds of trucks. My biggest concern is emergency steering and stopping!! Most newer full size trucks have the power and suspension to handle the work and if not, after market products can beef any truck up to pull the load and take the weight but stopping the load, especially in an emergency situation is my biggest fear. After many trucks and many trailers we settled on a 4 horse slant load goose neck and a F350 dually. The truck is 11 years old and I got it for less that 8,000 dollars. Having that extra rubber on the road and wide rear end has made a difference as clear as night and day. While I always try and leave enough room to/for emergency steering/braking without hurting the horses, there is always that unexpected moment. I have talked to several people who have over turned their trailers in emergency situations by having their trailer brakes set to strong to compensate for a smaller truck or lost control from swerving to avoid collision. While it is always safer to leave room and drive slow, with the wide rear end of a dually and extra rubber on the road, I know from experience that it is the most stable and controllable truck to pull with. We had to settle on an older used truck because of the cost of dually's but better to be safe when comes to our family and horses

Edited by FordLvr 2005-06-22 9:20 AM
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laxpatrick
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2005-06-22 12:02 PM (#26930 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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As long as you're in tow/haul you should be just fine.

Just kidding.

Seriously, I wouldn't do it. You'd be overloaded and such a light truck isn't designed for such a load (also consider that your tires may be over their capacity, your axle isn't designed for that load, and a multitude of other factors).

Recommendation: 3/4 ton or larger. Preference for diesel. Opinions only of course. You'd need to run the mfg number to get the "facts".
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-22 1:43 PM (#26934 - in reply to #26915)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Originally written by hav2ride on 2005-06-22 9:34 AM

Bigger trucks = bigger wheels = bigger brakes = better braking.  Of course the trailer brakes are rated for the trailer weight but I sure don't want to depend on just my trailer to stop my rig.

not exactly, bigger trucks mean more weight to stop when loaded to GVWR, basic physics dictate it will take longer to stop..........bigger wheels actually mean less leverage for breaking(more mass and rotating mass which is some of the reason it needs a bigger brake to start with) which may or may not matter depending on avaliable traction............and you can only fit a brake so large under a 16, 17inch wheel, i have discs just under 13" on the front and just over 13" on the back by my tape measure.

ill wager theyre not much bigger on a 1 ton. you can also only have so much "swept area" and granted a thicker disc will have more "heat sink" capability but now were getting really technical. and i wouldnt expect the trailer to stop the truck, just like the truck alone wont stop the trailer very well. both vehicles have their own brakes designed to stop their respective selves.



Edited by chadsalt 2005-06-22 5:40 PM
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Terri
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2005-06-22 2:17 PM (#26936 - in reply to #26905)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question



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Location: Southern New Mexico

I bet my truck on those trailer numbers being over for your truck.  If your trailer states it can haul 10K pounds your truck must also be rated to tow 10K or more.  The law won't care if you never plan on putting all of the 10K pounds in the trailer or not.  You can and may be fined and I believe it's very $$$$$!  Check your state laws and the state laws for any place you'll be towing to and through.

 

Before I made my trip to NM I e-mailed the state troupers office (looked up their web site) and asked this quiestion. 

The official response I got that the "possible" weight for the trailer/loa

With the weight ratings you provided, the driver is not required to have a
CDL, as long as the actual combination weight does not exceed 26,001 lbs
inclusive of a trailer greater than 10,001 lbs or more.

There is no problem with the weight of the vehicle as the actual weight being displaced on the vehicles is what determines the violation. This allowable weight is determined by axles and axle configurations and tire rating. So as long as the actual weight of the vehicles does not exceed the allowable gross weight allowed or the tire ratings, you should have no problems. Just keep in mind that even though your trailer is rated  at 14,000 lbs most of that weight will actually be distributed to the axles on the trailer with some portion distributed to the towing vehicle. As far as carrying livestock (horses) if you are traveling to NM for work then you would be considered in commerce (private carrier as you only transport your commodity, i.e. horses used in your job) and would be subject to Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations parts 390-399. If you are not “working” and do not use your vehicles for work then you are OK. 

  I have a 1/2 ton Dodge with a 10,000lb trailer limit and a 4 horse slant.  I brought my 2 mares up with me and was not over on anything.  I was close, but legal.  Not that there were any scales open.

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huntseat
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-22 4:29 PM (#26942 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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OK, let me play "bad barn buddy."

You have a truck and 4 horse trailer.  You only plan on hauling 2 horses which may put you right at your limit.

"What are you going to do with the other two slots?  Can you take my horse?"

Yes, puts you over the limit and I'm not paying for damages...your warranty will be voided if they think you were over weight, so the maker won't pay either FYI.

No, pisses off your riding buddies because you are dragging around dead space.  The temptation to bring along another horse may be too much for you.  Worst case you'll buy another horse and now be really stuck.

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Flooper
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2005-06-22 4:49 PM (#26943 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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I don't see how you can make it work. I've got a 2000 Dodge 1500 Quad Cab 4WD (mechanically identical to the 2001s), and pull a similar 2H Bumper pull like you. I looked at 3H goosers, and just couldn't find one that I could really make the numbers work with. Heres' why:

My GVWR is 6600 lbs.
My ACTUALl truck weight with full fuel, my wife, me, and a few things in the bed of the truck is 5600 lbs. That leaves only 1000 lbs for payload on the truck. (6600-5600)

A typical 3 or 4 horse gooseneck weighs between 5500 to 6500 lbs empty, plus 2 horses at 1100 lbs each adds up to a typical trailer weight of around 8000 lbs. Take 20% of that as pin weight (1600 lbs) on the truck, and I'm way over the 1000 lb payload left on the truck.

Maybe you have a lighter truck (no Quad Cab and 2WD) or are looking at a much lighter trailer than I used in my example, so you could conceivably have another 500 or 600 lbs. of payload than I do...in which case you could probably make it work as long as you only carried 2 horses...but you sure would be pushing it. Just my 2 cents worth.
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hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-22 7:55 PM (#26947 - in reply to #26934)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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I personally KNOW that bigger wheels = better braking.  I had an F350 dually that I pulled a 29' box 3 H, mid tack, and LQ with.  I traded to an F450 because of the safety and legal issues.  The larger wheels/brakes on the F450 can stop my trailer on it's own, not that I would want to haul that way.  Pulling a 4H with a 1500 is just not safe in emergency situations.
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-22 8:31 PM (#26949 - in reply to #26947)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Originally written by hav2ride on 2005-06-22 8:55 PM

I personally KNOW that bigger wheels = better braking.  I had an F350 dually that I pulled a 29' box 3 H, mid tack, and LQ with.  I traded to an F450 because of the safety and legal issues.  The larger wheels/brakes on the F450 can stop my trailer on it's own, not that I would want to haul that way.  Pulling a 4H with a 1500 is just not safe in emergency situations.

the smaller wheels and brakes on my pitiful little trailblazer pulling my 2h sl bp (yes im at the max GVWR) will also stop me. what is your point? are you saying your trailer brakes are or are not functioning properly? i dont understand the point of that statement.

and why is a 1/2 ton with 4h not safe IF it could be managed to the GVWR? say it is a light trailer and 2 small type horses.  youre making a rather broad statement that appears as though youre stating fact. and if, just if, you do mean it as fact....your implied experiance is showing. but if not intended as fact....then i apologize.

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brrlrcer3
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2005-06-22 9:03 PM (#26950 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Posts: 6

Thank you everyone for your input.  The trailer I was looking at was sold, but I take it as a sign I wasnt supposed to buy it.  I will look into getting another truck before the trailer.  Thank you again for all the information, I will print this out for later use!
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Terri
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2005-06-23 4:33 PM (#26986 - in reply to #26942)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question



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I don't haul for other people.  I have 10 acres so there is no "barn buddy" and I go to the large organized rides were I know some people but everyone has their own rigs.   I have also seen people turn flatbed trailers into animal trailers by adding cattle pannels to them.  But they had a 1 ton truck.  And if your friendships are so fragile that saying no to something causes a problem, well....   People ought to be able to understand why you don't want to haul illegal without being offended.

I drove to NM in May and I weighed my trailer/truck fully loaded to make absoultely sure that I wasn't over my limits.  I had wanted to bring about 20 bales of coastal hay with me but having them in the front of the trailer would have put me over so I left them.  I was close, but under and had no problems going over the hills on I10. 

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Flooper
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2005-06-23 5:09 PM (#26988 - in reply to #26902)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Terri,
Just curious (dont' take offense!!). What is the configuration of your Dodge 1/2 ton Ram that you have a 10,000 lb tow rating? My 2000 Quad Cab 4WD with the 5.9L and 3.55s is only rated to tow 7200...the highest rating I've seen for a Dodge 1/2 ton is 8900 lbs.

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hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-23 7:44 PM (#26997 - in reply to #26949)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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My trailer brakes function just fine, thank you.  My point is that it is not advisable to tow to the max.  Now, I know that you enjoy doing that and no one will ever convince you otherwise, but I don't think it is in the right to tell people who are inexperienced at hauling to tow near or at the max.  By the way, a few weeks ago, my brother saw an Explorer hauling a flat trailer with a car and a small boat on it  lose control because the trailer started swaying back and forth.  The trailer hit the guard rail and fliped over and the car and the boat were destroyed.  My brother watched the whole thing and said that the trailer sway caused the whole accident.  And there was no live weight on that trailer. If you want to be at the max, fine.  I just don't think you are doing the right thing by advising other to do the same.
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Terri
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2005-06-23 10:03 PM (#27010 - in reply to #26988)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question



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I have a 2003 2WD.  I'll have to wait until the sun comes up to get the numbers for you.  But I got the 10,000lb rating out of my manuel and e-mailed Dodge to confirm it.  I thought maybe it was a typo but they looked up my vin# and confirmed it.
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-23 10:06 PM (#27011 - in reply to #26997)
Subject: RE: Hauling Question


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Originally written by hav2ride on 2005-06-23 8:44 PM

My trailer brakes function just fine, thank you.  My point is that it is not advisable to tow to the max.  Now, I know that you enjoy doing that and no one will ever convince you otherwise, but I don't think it is in the right to tell people who are inexperienced at hauling to tow near or at the max.  By the way, a few weeks ago, my brother saw an Explorer hauling a flat trailer with a car and a small boat on it  lose control because the trailer started swaying back and forth.  The trailer hit the guard rail and fliped over and the car and the boat were destroyed.  My brother watched the whole thing and said that the trailer sway caused the whole accident.  And there was no live weight on that trailer. If you want to be at the max, fine.  I just don't think you are doing the right thing by advising other to do the same.

first of all i do not advise anyone to tow at the GVWR, aka the SAFE max allowable limit set by the people who know...the manufacturer.  i only point out it CAN be done safely.  if you are not comfortable doing so, that is of course your business. however you are expressing your opinion as if it is fact,  i am stating facts when referring to the limits set by the manufacturers, they are more qualified than you or i to set that limit.

i dont think its right, or safe, for the untrained (and years of towing dont make up for training) to get behind the wheel of 12000+ pounds and start driving, PERIOD. but you dont hear me telling them, or you, not to do it.  doing so would be elitist and arrogant. i do emphasize safety and instruction though.

and btw the trailer sway did not cause the wreck, the driver did.  the trailer is an object, it can not do anything by itself.  the driver made a mistake or possibly a series of mistakes that led to the wreck, mistakes very likely including getting behind the wheel. we need to take responsibility for our own actions, and the line of thinking...... "the trailer sway caused the whole accident."..... is not.

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