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why
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2005-06-01 12:29 AM (#25918)
Subject: overloaded


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Location: Fallon nv
4 hrs gn lq mid tack 40 ft long 18000# gvw 14500# - 15000# axle wieght. Tires fail w/ regularity. Trailer is level, tires @ proper inflation. Axles rated @ 7000#, tires rated @ 3042 235/85R16. Needless to say I need larger tire rating (range G) however does axle rating and tire rating work together. looking into Sti air ride axle W 8000# rating. Does anyone have these already? Do you like them, do you still have tires fail. Thanks!
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Iowa NBHA Webmaster
Reg. Apr 2005
Posted 2005-06-01 5:29 AM (#25924 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Location: Stockport, Iowa

I don't think the axles would make the tires fail, unless they are out of alignment.  Is it the same tire everytime?  Same side, or do they fail randomly?  I would definately try higher load rated tires.  If you are truely considering air ride, I would contact Kelderman MFG.  They do air ride suspensions.  http://www.keldermanmfg.com

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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-01 7:11 AM (#25926 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Originally written by why on 2005-06-01 1:29 AM

4 hrs gn lq mid tack 40 ft long 18000# gvw 14500# - 15000# axle wieght. Tires fail w/ regularity. Trailer is level, tires @ proper inflation. Axles rated @ 7000#, tires rated @ 3042 235/85R16. Needless to say I need larger tire rating (range G) however does axle rating and tire rating work together. looking into Sti air ride axle W 8000# rating. Does anyone have these already? Do you like them, do you still have tires fail. Thanks!
your post is not clear, are you saying you have a GVWR of 18000# and are loaded to 14500-15000#? at any rate you did say you have 7000# axle with tires rated to 3042#. that means your axle is only rated to 6084#, with the tire being the weakest component in that situation. if all this is true and you and the axle weight of 14500-15000# is split between 2 axles youre over the 6084 axles rating and yes that would cause regular blowouts.
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Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-01 8:11 AM (#25929 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Originally written by why on 2005-06-01 12:29 AM

4 hrs gn lq mid tack 40 ft long 18000# gvw 14500# - 15000# axle wieght. Tires fail w/ regularity. Trailer is level, tires @ proper inflation. Axles rated @ 7000#, tires rated @ 3042 235/85R16. Needless to say I need larger tire rating (range G) however does axle rating and tire rating work together. looking into Sti air ride axle W 8000# rating. Does anyone have these already? Do you like them, do you still have tires fail. Thanks!


Hi Why and Welcome to the Forum.
I agree with Chadsalt (I often do), your post isn't clear.

If what you mean is that you have a trailer GVW of 18,000 and an actual axle load of between 14,500 and 15,000 which is shared between two 7,000 axles that have 3042 rated tires on them... I'm going to go a bit contrary and say that your tires shouldn't be blowing out on a regular basis.
Yes, the arithmetic says they're overloaded, but 15,000/4 = 3,750 and I would expect there to be more margin than that. I'm also a bit puzzled as to how you finished up with 7,000 axles under this trailer, though I know I've seen similar numbers for camper trailers, again I would expect the margin to be there.
Other posters, don't jump all over me, I'm not saying the op should be doing this and getting away with it, just that the tires should have enough margin to take it. Where I'm going with this is that I think you should also look for other contributing factors, e.g. dragging brakes that might be leading to warm/hot tires.

50 miles east of Reno NV - I'd guess it gets warm there ?
If you drive for 30 minutes with the trailer empty, do your tires get really warm ? fronts more or less so than the rears ? any particular tire worse than the other three ? If so is this the one that usually blows ?

WRT Air ride axles; I have them, but I'm really not sure if they are Sti or not. I usually fuss about these things and I tried to find out, but mine was built at a time when 4-Star was changing suppliers and it seems it could be an Sti or ??? (I've forgotten) but it works well and the hossies seem to like the ride.

WRT Tire and Axle ratings working together; The lightest rated one is your limit. In your case you can upgrade/upsize your tires to a bit over what the axles can take, but it is pointless going too far. There is a point at which bigger tires need bigger rims and those bigger rims won't mount on the existing axles. 6 vs 8 stud, etc.

I just checked my tire size and rating; Goodyear G159 LT 235/85R16, Load range G, 3,415 lbs in dual, 3,750 lbs in single at 110 psi cold. So I guess G rated tires in this size limit your load to less than what a pair of 7,000 axles can take.
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santelikk
Reg. May 2005
Posted 2005-06-01 8:45 AM (#25932 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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I agree with Reg that there should be more allowance when overloading your tires.  But from an Engineering POV  something that may have been designed that way is that the tires listed on the sitcker would be the first to fail before you cause serious damage to your axle.  I would think tires are less expensive than replacing bent/broken axles. Just my thoughts.

Kevin

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Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-01 9:59 AM (#25941 - in reply to #25932)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Originally written by santelikk on 2005-06-01 8:45 AM

I agree with Reg that there should be more allowance when overloading your tires. But from an Engineering POV something that may have been designed that way is that the tires listed on the sitcker would be the first to fail before you cause serious damage to your axle. I would think tires are less expensive than replacing bent/broken axles. Just my thoughts.

Kevin



From an engineering design POV ...
I don't think putting low rated tires on to act as "fuses" to protect the axles would be a likely design solution. The tires and axles BOTH need to be selected to take greater than the rated load.

Having thought a bit more about it I'd get the axles and their alignment checked, they COULD be causing tire scrubbing, resulting in heat build up.
Similarly, the brakes could be dragging for any number of reasons.
Another thing is that with a 4 horse trailer WITH an LQ nearly ALL of the horse weight (4,000, maye 5,000) will be just about directly on the axles, unlike on my head to head trailer. This means there will be a bigger (than on my trailer) axle load difference between running empty and fully loaded, whereas mine puts more horse weight onto the truck.
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MBRA518
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2005-06-01 10:20 AM (#25945 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded



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Wasn't there a post earlier stating that some trailer end up with smaller axles because the person who ordered it (buyer or dealer) didn't want o go over some limit that increased taxes? That could be the reason the axles are 7000lbs - that is if I'm remembering right.

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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-01 3:20 PM (#25959 - in reply to #25929)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Originally written by Reg on 2005-06-01 9:11 AM

Originally written by why on 2005-06-01 12:29 AM4 hrs gn lq mid tack 40 ft long 18000# gvw 14500# - 15000# axle wieght. Tires fail w/ regularity. Trailer is level, tires @ proper inflation. Axles rated @ 7000#, tires rated @ 3042 235/85R16. Needless to say I need larger tire rating (range G) however does axle rating and tire rating work together. looking into Sti air ride axle W 8000# rating. Does anyone have these already? Do you like them, do you still have tires fail. Thanks!
Hi Why and Welcome to the Forum.I agree with Chadsalt (I often do), your post isn't clear.If what you mean is that you have a trailer GVW of 18,000 and an actual axle load of between 14,500 and 15,000 which is shared between two 7,000 axles that have 3042 rated tires on them... I'm going to go a bit contrary and say that your tires shouldn't be blowing out on a regular basis.Yes, the arithmetic says they're overloaded, but 15,000/4 = 3,750 and I would expect there to be more margin than that. I'm also a bit puzzled as to how you finished up with 7,000 axles under this trailer, though I know I've seen similar numbers for camper trailers, again I would expect the margin to be there.Other posters, don't jump all over me, I'm not saying the op should be doing this and getting away with it, just that the tires should have enough margin to take it. Where I'm going with this is that I think you should also look for other contributing factors, e.g. dragging brakes that might be leading to warm/hot tires. 50 miles east of Reno NV - I'd guess it gets warm there ?If you drive for 30 minutes with the trailer empty, do your tires get really warm ? fronts more or less so than the rears ? any particular tire worse than the other three ? If so is this the one that usually blows ?WRT Air ride axles; I have them, but I'm really not sure if they are Sti or not. I usually fuss about these things and I tried to find out, but mine was built at a time when 4-Star was changing suppliers and it seems it could be an Sti or ??? (I've forgotten) but it works well and the hossies seem to like the ride.WRT Tire and Axle ratings working together; The lightest rated one is your limit. In your case you can upgrade/upsize your tires to a bit over what the axles can take, but it is pointless going too far. There is a point at which bigger tires need bigger rims and those bigger rims won't mount on the existing axles. 6 vs 8 stud, etc.I just checked my tire size and rating; Goodyear G159 LT 235/85R16, Load range G, 3,415 lbs in dual, 3,750 lbs in single at 110 psi cold. So I guess G rated tires in this size limit your load to less than what a pair of 7,000 axles can take.

reg, you "to the contrary", i dont believe it. i do enjoy other points of view though.

allow me to elaborate.....a tire rated at 3042 and running about 3750 is about 125%, i personally wouldnt expect much service from a component at that stress level. that being said this next part would probably be better explained by a tire rep than my sorry truck driving butt, but here goes......

the reason i said the overload would cause regular blowouts is that in the tire world it is common practice for a tire with a rating of 1/3 the GVWR to be used, this is in case of a blowout. in a blowout the 3 remaining tires have to support the additional load. if they are not of sufficent rating, say they are the GVWR /4 then they will be overloaded by about 33%. this will cause internal damage and contribute to a tire failure. if all the numbers are correct in the OP, this would be another case that appears to back this theory up.

get a hold of a tire rep, theyre more than happy to talk to anyone, (and would likely make more sense than i have), especially after the firestone/explorer situation.



Edited by chadsalt 2005-06-01 5:54 PM
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gabz
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-01 4:22 PM (#25962 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded



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WHOA...  I think you're gonna need a bigger boat...

If you are saying 18000 as GVW and 14.5 - 15k as "axle weight"... are you thinking that 15-20% of the 18k is carried on the truck? therefore, the tires, wheels, axles are expected to ONLY carry 15k?

So you have 3 axles RIGHT?  in which case you should be okay.    If you only have 2 axles and 4 wheels/tires... you are WAY underaxled - and yes, you could well be overflexing one or both axles which is causing horrible stress on your tires.

18k divided by 4 wheels/tires = 4500 pounds per wheel/tire and at LEAST 9000 pound axles.  Now then... you know how sometimes one axle kind of "floats" momentarily?  that's when you need a little extra because as someone else explained, sometimes 3 or perhaps even only 2 wheels/tires are carrying the entire weight.  Therefore using the gvw is necessary.

 

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why
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2005-06-01 11:17 PM (#25988 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Location: Fallon nv
Thank you all for your insight. let me clarify the situation. Cat scales wieghs my trailer @ gvwr of 18000 lbs, tongue wieght of 5800 lbs, axle wieght of over 14000 lbs. So the question is what part of the load carrying job is the axle and what part is the tires. If you just get bigger tires and axle is still overloaded does that solve the problem, or do both axle & tires need to be above the axle wieght of 14000 lbs. Hope this helps clarify did the best I could. Thank you.
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-02 6:17 AM (#25991 - in reply to #25988)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Originally written by why on 2005-06-01 12:17 AM

Thank you all for your insight. let me clarify the situation. Cat scales wieghs my trailer @ gvwr of 18000 lbs, tongue wieght of 5800 lbs, axle wieght of over 14000 lbs. So the question is what part of the load carrying job is the axle and what part is the tires. If you just get bigger tires and axle is still overloaded does that solve the problem, or do both axle & tires need to be above the axle wieght of 14000 lbs. Hope this helps clarify did the best I could. Thank you.

well not exactly, on the trailer there should be a sticker listing the GVWR and GAWR.  you state the "cat scales weighs the trailer @ gvwr of 18000 lbs" the scale will not give you the GVWR, it will give the GVW.  which appears to be 5800 + "over 14000" = 19800.  how many axles do you have and what are they rated,  you said 7000 in another post.  you look to be over weight in this siuation, so as for the tires, if you do in fact have 7000 axles with tires rated at 3042 you dont have the full 7000 capacity.  using tires rated to 3500 would help, so would taking some weight off the overloaded trailer.  if you use tires rated over the 7000 axle that would probably help the blowout situation, but the axle itself is still overloaded.  premature wear should be expected.

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Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-02 7:04 AM (#25992 - in reply to #25988)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Originally written by why on 2005-06-01 11:17 PM

Thank you all for your insight. let me clarify the situation. Cat scales wieghs my trailer @ gvwr of 18000 lbs, tongue wieght of 5800 lbs, axle wieght of over 14000 lbs. So the question is what part of the load carrying job is the axle and what part is the tires. If you just get bigger tires and axle is still overloaded does that solve the problem, or do both axle & tires need to be above the axle wieght of 14000 lbs. Hope this helps clarify did the best I could. Thank you.


The answer to your question is "both", since tires and axles both carry the load.
The answer to your problem is different and probably not what you want to hear.

The trailer is rated at 18,000 lbs., upgrading tires and axles to 20,000 lbs or more doesn't make the trailer safe or legal at 19,800 (or more). You could still get ticketted and put out of service for overweight, worse you could break something critical and cause an accident - insurance companies apparently walk away from such situations.
Hmmm, I guess you're already at that point and have just had the good fortune to not (yet) hurt anyone or get caught.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I think the reality is that you can't legally get there from here.
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gabz
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-06 3:15 PM (#26128 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded



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Been gone  a few days....

 If the tongue weight (TW) is 5800 pounds, on the scale, and it's a GN, let's say that represents 25% of the total weight of the trailer. 25% is one-fourth, so 4 times 5800 = full weight (23200 pounds) ???? is this right? Then, less the tongue weight, equals towed weight. That's still 17,400 pounds sitting on 2, 7000 pound axles.   

I'm gonna say that the numbers just don't add up. Hello? Trailer Company?  Come get your unsafe, illegal trailer and give me my money back. Plus, all the money I spent on tires and repairs and down time and aggravation.

Or - this could be a matter of a stripped down trailer having LQ added that made the trailer exceed it's GAWR....

 

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Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-06 3:47 PM (#26129 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Yep, as the title states: "OVERLOADED".
18,000 is it's GVWR - period.
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-06 6:48 PM (#26135 - in reply to #26128)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Originally written by gabz on 2005-06-06 4:15 PM

Been gone  a few days....

 If the tongue weight (TW) is 5800 pounds, on the scale, and it's a GN, let's say that represents 25% of the total weight of the trailer. 25% is one-fourth, so 4 times 5800 = full weight (23200 pounds) ???? is this right? Then, less the tongue weight, equals towed weight. That's still 17,400 pounds sitting on 2, 7000 pound axles.   

I'm gonna say that the numbers just don't add up. Hello? Trailer Company?  Come get your unsafe, illegal trailer and give me my money back. Plus, all the money I spent on tires and repairs and down time and aggravation.

Or - this could be a matter of a stripped down trailer having LQ added that made the trailer exceed it's GAWR....

 

uh what?  no those numbers dont add up,  im pretty sure you cant reverse engineer a trailer weight with the tongue wt. due to the fact the tongue wt % is not a fixed number.

with a tongue of 5800 and axles of 14000+ that is the towed weight of 19800+ and the tongue of about 29%, which would be in line with an overweight trailer.....possibly caused by to many goodies in the LQ.

im really curious about this situation, are the 7000 axles being misread?  possibly 9000?  is this a 3 axle 7000 rig?  how in the world did they reach GVWR of 18000? and who are they?

if none of the above, what is in this particular 4h trailer that causes such a high loaded weight? i just cant see how any of this makes sense.



Edited by chadsalt 2005-06-06 6:58 PM
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Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-06 8:44 PM (#26141 - in reply to #25918)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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It doesn't matter.
He is trying to upgrade an 18,000 trailer to something higher than that by changing tires and axles.

Fergettit,

It doesn't work like that, it is STILL an 18K trailer.

Sure, he can probably put something under it that won't blow out, but it is STILL an 18K trailer (did I say that already ?).

(-:
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chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-06-06 9:10 PM (#26144 - in reply to #26141)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Originally written by Reg on 2005-06-06 9:44 PM

It doesn't matter. He is trying to upgrade an 18,000 trailer to something higher than that by changing tires and axles. Fergettit, It doesn't work like that, it is STILL an 18K trailer. Sure, he can probably put something under it that won't blow out, but it is STILL an 18K trailer (did I say that already ?). (-:

thats true, but im still curious.

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gabz
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-07 3:09 PM (#26180 - in reply to #26144)
Subject: RE: overloaded



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Originally written by chadsalt on 2005-06-06 9:10 PM

thats true, but im still curious.

yeah, me too...

but... for those who read and lurk and like the entertainment, I thought I would play around with the numbers some more...

I think it's one of those deals like MBRA suggested.... maybe a late 1990s or early 2000 trailer by a well-known manufacturer (whose name begins with an "E") before they got their guano straight.

 

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MIfarmbabe
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-07 4:43 PM (#26188 - in reply to #26180)
Subject: RE: overloaded


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Originally written by gabz on 2005-06-07 4:09 PM

Originally written by chadsalt on 2005-06-06 9:10 PM

thats true, but im still curious.

yeah, me too...

but... for those who read and lurk and like the entertainment, I thought I would play around with the numbers some more...

I think it's one of those deals like MBRA suggested.... maybe a late 1990s or early 2000 trailer by a well-known manufacturer (whose name begins with an "E") before they got their guano straight.

 May not like to lurk as much as I like entertainment! LOL! So what "E" trailer are you referring to? Come on, spill the beans here.  Elite?Exiss?Eby?

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gabz
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-06-08 9:22 AM (#26213 - in reply to #26188)
Subject: RE: overloaded



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We have a Winnah!!!   Door number 2.

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