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Generator fuel pump questions?

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tom-tom
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2011-02-07 6:05 AM (#129857)
Subject: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Posts: 317
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Location: Barnesville, Ga.
I have an Onan 4K genset on the roof of my trailer.  The fuel tank is located on the bottom of the trailer.  I have to pump the fuel up about 9 feet to get it to the genset.  Right now the fuel pump is on the genset and has to suck fuel uphill 9 feet.  Went to use the gen this weekend and it wouldn't run I think the fuel pump has gone out again.  Was thinking about putting an additional fuel pump at the tank to push the fuel up to the pump at the genset.  Has anybody had any experience pumping fuel up to the top of their trailers?  How are other roof mounted gensets fuel pumps set up.  Do I need to put a higher pressure pump down low with a fuel pressure regulator on the roof?  I have already replaced the original pump once and am getting tired of having to replace them.  I use my genset about 100 hours a year. 
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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2011-02-07 10:15 AM (#129865 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Location: western PA

I've been into older automobiles for several decades. Most of the original fuel pumps are a diaphram type that suck fuel from the tank. Whenever these automobiles are upgraded for daily usage in today's environment, a modern electric fuel pump is usually mounted externally, right near to the tank.

This enhances the fuel system's reliability, and because the fuel is consistantly pressurised and pushed towards the carbs, the engine runs smother with less fluctuations. Fuel vapour lock is reduced and fuel densities altered by temperatures, have less of an operational affect. 

It should be a simple matter to install an auxilliary electric pump near to your tank. The OEM pump can be left undisturbed. The electric pump could be powered directly from the generator when it's running, with a battery powered, momentary action, override switch installed to prime the carb for starting.

Pumps are much more efficient pushing a fluid, than trying to create a vacuum to pull the fliud. You also lessen the chance of loosing a prime on a vertical lift. Many pumps are adjustable for usage with float carburators, with pressures ranging from 4 - 7 PSI. They are available at most auto parts stores, or many sources on the internet.

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tom-tom
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2011-02-07 10:30 AM (#129868 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Location: Barnesville, Ga.
Do I need to get a higher pressure pump maybe 10-20 psi instead of the 3 psi pump onan uses and install a pressure regulator with a guage and set it 3 psi? Didn't know if it would take the extra pressure to push the fuel up that high.
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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2011-02-07 11:27 AM (#129871 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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My memory is a bit foggy, but in school I think I was instructed that a head pressure of one pound was realised with a 39" lift. If that is in fact true, a 7' height would take a pressure of about ~2 1/4 lbs to overcome. Most modern low pressure pumps have built in regulators with a high limit of 4-7 lbs depending on the model and manuf. If you need 3 psi for the carb, and ~ 2 1/4 psi for the lift, this should be within the range of the pump.

High pressure pumps used on fuel injection systems can sometime put out as much as 75 psi, and are often regulated to 39 PSI. You may not need a seperate fuel pressure regulator. Install the LP pump and see how the carb's needle and seat react. If it properly maintains the float bowl fuel level and doesn't overfill, you should be good to go. I typically run a 7 psi pump on a 4 lb system with no modifications.

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calamityj
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2011-02-07 5:43 PM (#129893 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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My husband says you need to get that gen off the roof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or it will keep burning the fuel pumps up. The pumps were not designed to lift fuel up, and, it is illegal to have it up on the roof....s0, you can remount the generator in the lower part of your tack, and put a DOT fuel tank under your rear manger and make sure everything is ventilated properly. Good Luck. (We dealt with this issue in a previous life/LQ trailer.
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retento
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2011-02-07 6:48 PM (#129894 - in reply to #129893)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Originally written by calamityj on 2011-02-07 6:43 PM

My husband says you need to get that gen off the roof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or it will keep burning the fuel pumps up. The pumps were not designed to lift fuel up, and, it is illegal to have it up on the roof....s0, you can remount the generator in the lower part of your tack, and put a DOT fuel tank under your rear manger and make sure everything is ventilated properly. Good Luck. (We dealt with this issue in a previous life/LQ trailer.

Haven't heard that one before....

 

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flyinghfarm
Reg. Mar 2004
Posted 2011-02-07 6:58 PM (#129895 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Man, there's a bunch of em mounted up there (ours, is in the rear tack with tank in the manger...no vertical lift),.... not saying it is legal, or not..........don't know..........but would like to know.......is your husband somehow in a field that would have the scoop on this?  This is very interesting, some of my good friends have some very very nice trailers with preofessionally mounted gensets up top, and I am appalled if it could get them into trouble like with the DOT or somebody...

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tom-tom
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2011-02-07 7:08 PM (#129897 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Posts: 317
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Location: Barnesville, Ga.

I absolutely love having my gen on the roof.  Wouldn't want it any where else.  Gets the heat and exhaust away from me and my horses.  I don't really see what the problem would be with where it is mounted.  I had one in a different trailer mounted in the mid tack and was concerned about the heat the unit made.  It was an onan too.  Propane though and I didn't have a minutes trouble out of it.  Probably only used it 100 hours in 3 years.  The way I see it the dealer is the responsible party.  They installed it and the fuel tank and if it were illegal I am sure that they wouldn't have done it.  The biggest down fall to having it on the roof is that you have to service it off a ladder.  I have a friend with a 4star his is mounted in the manager and he has trouble venting the heat when he uses his.

 

Over the road reefer units are mounted at the top of trailer with their fuel tank mounted under the frame.  How is this any different?  I don't understand the issue.  Elighten me. 



Edited by tom-tom 2011-02-07 7:12 PM
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2011-02-07 7:13 PM (#129898 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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What you need is a transfer pump to lift the fuel to a small tank that the fuel pump on the generator can pump from...The important figures to be aware of when choosing a transfer pump is Max. Total Head (ft.) and Max. Suction Lift (ft.)
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tom-tom
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2011-02-07 7:19 PM (#129900 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Posts: 317
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Location: Barnesville, Ga.

My gen setup is very similar to the follwing:

http://www.horsetrailerworld.com/home/trailerdetail.asp?ID=191426

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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2011-02-07 10:31 PM (#129908 - in reply to #129898)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Location: western PA

Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2011-02-07 8:13 PM

What you need is a transfer pump to lift the fuel to a small tank that the fuel pump on the generator can pump from...The important figures to be aware of when choosing a transfer pump is Max. Total Head (ft.) and Max. Suction Lift (ft.)

A second, elevated, smaller tank would require additional involvement to work properly. It would include extra plumbing as well as the tank. To fill the smaller tank from a large one, would preclude constant monitoring, so as not to overfill the top tank. Spilled fuel on top of the trailer would be very dangerous. The smaller tank would shorten the run times, and it would have to be refilled more often. A quantity guage would be necessary, with a remote sending unit and a placement that could be read from the ground level. This system would also have to use two fuel pumps.

It would be much easier to use the existing plumbing, and add an in line pressure pump.

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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2011-02-08 1:47 PM (#129932 - in reply to #129908)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Originally written by gard on 2011-02-07 11:31 PM

Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2011-02-07 8:13 PM

What you need is a transfer pump to lift the fuel to a small tank that the fuel pump on the generator can pump from...The important figures to be aware of when choosing a transfer pump is Max. Total Head (ft.) and Max. Suction Lift (ft.)

A second, elevated, smaller tank would require additional involvement to work properly. It would include extra plumbing as well as the tank. To fill the smaller tank from a large one, would preclude constant monitoring, so as not to overfill the top tank. Spilled fuel on top of the trailer would be very dangerous. The smaller tank would shorten the run times, and it would have to be refilled more often. A quantity guage would be necessary, with a remote sending unit and a placement that could be read from the ground level. This system would also have to use two fuel pumps.

It would be much easier to use the existing plumbing, and add an in line pressure pump.

If "Rube Goldberg" is NOT involved in the design process...then I'm NOT interested...
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beenaround
Reg. May 2004
Posted 2011-02-08 4:19 PM (#129938 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?




100
Location: A high mountain peak
Cummins/Onan dealers sell an inline pump for about $100 that is set to handle this lift. Most dealers use them to install generators on the roof. The part # is A029F891

Edited by beenaround 2011-02-08 4:20 PM
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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2011-02-09 10:41 AM (#129977 - in reply to #129932)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Posts: 5870
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Location: western PA

Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2011-02-08 2:47 PM

If "Rube Goldberg" is NOT involved in the design process...then I'm NOT interested...

Uncle Rube certainly has been around for a long time. He's responsible for learning to start fire, was the first person to eat a lobster, showed the builders how to get a large stone on the top of the pyramids, initiated the industrial revolution, and last I heard, told Al Gore how to start the internet.

Amazing man that Rube. Civilisation would not be the same without him.



Edited by gard 2011-02-09 10:43 AM
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calamityj
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2011-02-09 11:20 AM (#129979 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Location: missouri
The RVIA regulations in the state of Missouri state that you cannot have a fuel tank on the roof or hayrack. (rollover/fire hazard? I don't know...)
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tom-tom
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2011-02-09 11:37 AM (#129982 - in reply to #129857)
Subject: RE: Generator fuel pump questions?


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Posts: 317
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Location: Barnesville, Ga.
Fuel tank is not on the roof. Fuel tank is mounted under the trailer to the frame.
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