'
1
Forums Albums Skins 1
Search Register Logon


You are logged in as a guest. Logon or register an account to access more features.
OTHER FORUMS:    Barrel Horses  -   Trucks   -   Cutting  -   Reining  -   Roping 
'
Advice for PSSM horse?

Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Last activity 2010-04-07 2:41 PM
18 replies, 12020 views

View previous thread :: View next thread
   General Discussion -> Horse Talk  Click to return to Barrel Talk
Refresh
Message format
 
JustMary
Reg. May 2008
Posted 2010-01-18 3:13 PM (#115423)
Subject: Advice for PSSM horse?


Regular


Posts: 60
2525
Location: Missouri

I have a 4 y/o QH mare that I bred, raised & trained under saddle.  Last summer (as a 3 y/o and her first year under saddle) she tied up 4 times.  The 3rd & 4th time that it happened she was on a diet modified for PSSM symptoms and I was also giving her a Selenium/Vitamin E supplement.  Late last year a muscle biopsy confirmed that she is PSSM (rather than tying up because of a selenium deficiency or other reason).  I am following the Veterinary specialists' recommendations regarding diet (low starch, adding oil, additional Vit E, etc).   She is turned out 23 hours/day but really doesn't self exercise much at all.

I'm looking for other suggestions for management.  Regular exercise is recommended (difficult at this time of year because there is thick shoe-sucking mud everywhere!) for PSSM horses.  Does anyone have other management ideas?  I had big plans for trail riding and a Ranch Horse competition now and then.  The frequency of her episodes makes me wonder if her future is doomed.  Thanks.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
huntseat
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2010-01-19 9:26 PM (#115482 - in reply to #115423)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Expert


Posts: 1989
1000500100100100100252525
Location: South Central OK

Please tell us you will spay the mare.  It seems NSAID's are the drug of choice and hot blankets, but even light work will set off an attack, so it looks like no matter what you do you are rolling the dice.

Have you looked into donating her to a veterinary college?

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
JustMary
Reg. May 2008
Posted 2010-01-20 9:01 AM (#115493 - in reply to #115423)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Regular


Posts: 60
2525
Location: Missouri
Her future depends on how this spring goes.  She is a pretty reactive filly: not spooky, but she gets pretty ramped up in new surroundings and around new horses; each time she tied up was in someplace new with lots of stimuli.  The vet agrees that light sedation may help, & she is on a much more strict diet now than then.  I am cautiously optimistic.  If she continues to have problems I would consider donating her; I have considered having her put down.  In any case she will not be bred.  It's a heartbreaker, too:  she is a big, pretty, pretty buckskin and is AQHA Incentive Fund Nominated.  Hoping that age and a little seasoning will turn her around so she can have a productive life as a saddle horse.

Edited by JustMary 2010-01-20 9:04 AM
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
huntseat
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2010-01-20 3:32 PM (#115520 - in reply to #115423)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Expert


Posts: 1989
1000500100100100100252525
Location: South Central OK

Doesn't this get worse with age?  If she has an episode in new places with lots of stimuli, you can rule out shows.

Either donate her, or find some little old lady that likes pasture art and give her away.  Keeping her around will only tempt you into using her.

Have you found out if the gene came from her sire or dam?  I think you should notify the owners of both so they can get tested.  If people had done the right thing in the first place maybe HYPP wouldn't be a black eye in the QH world.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
sinful
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2010-01-24 6:18 AM (#115643 - in reply to #115520)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?



Extreme Veteran


Posts: 420
100100100100
Location: Iowa
Originally written by huntseat on 2010-01-20 3:32 PM

  If people had done the right thing in the first place maybe HYPP wouldn't be a black eye in the QH world.

I don't think HYPP is as big a black eye as Cutting Horses whose skin falls off.  You MUST test for HYPP and it's also manageable.  AQHA does not make anyone test for HERDA.  HERDA is not managable.   Yeah, I know there are still some idots out there who still breed for H/H colts.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
huntseat
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2010-01-24 7:57 AM (#115644 - in reply to #115423)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Expert


Posts: 1989
1000500100100100100252525
Location: South Central OK

I completely agree, but that brings me back to redefining "responsible breeder."

I have read it somewhere that if a horse has 2 bad copies of the HERDA gene, they usually die before breeding age.  (One person stated that this alone would self-limit HERDA.)  I am horrified by that, what a horrible fate.

But PSSM, is more unusual in that it appears in SEVERAL breeds of horses, so it might not have a traceable ancestor like HYPP and HERDA.  That makes this more scary to me.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
bbsmfg3
Reg. Dec 2006
Posted 2010-01-24 11:37 AM (#115649 - in reply to #115643)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 376
100100100252525
Location: Missouri
You are right, this does get worse with age. Your best bet at keeping her is regular, every day exercise. That means no days off, period. Doesn't take long per day, but does require 15 to 30 minutes per day of slow regular exercise. The condition gets worse with layoffs, ie, that's why it was many times referred to as "Monday Morning" disease in draft horses that worked all week then had Sunday off and then, tied up on Monday.
Diet plays a big part, most of them can not tolerate protein well at all. There diets must be as protein deficient as possible. Even the legumes in most pastures can be too much.

I'm not aware of it being hereditary, usually caused by feeding and exercise regimes that don't match. However, once they have started, they have a tendency to get progressively worse, with more and more muscular damage, and eventually enough damage to the heart that they die of a heart attack.

Depending on the amount of muscular damage you have currently, there have been good results with IV's of DMSO. It is possible to reverse some damage and with proper exercise and diet have them lead a fairly normal life. Be a good idea to get someone well versed in treatment to give you a hand.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
sinful
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2010-01-24 6:07 PM (#115661 - in reply to #115423)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?



Extreme Veteran


Posts: 420
100100100100
Location: Iowa
JustMary;    Please keep us informed on what you decide to do or the treatment you chose to take. I've never had a horse with PSSM.   I wish you all the luck in the world.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
JustMary
Reg. May 2008
Posted 2010-01-26 10:05 AM (#115725 - in reply to #115649)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Regular


Posts: 60
2525
Location: Missouri

bbsmfg3:  Could you share the source of the information you posted?  I haven't heard ANYTHING about PSSM horses being intolerant of protein; in fact, Drs. Valentine, McCue, Valberg, et al recommend a diet low in starch as PSSM is an inability to properly metabolize sugar (hence lower starch diet).  It is related to a genetic mutation and therefore, is, indeed genetic.  They go as far as recommending corn or vegetable oil over soaked alfalfa cubes as a regular part of the diet.

I have been communicating with a large regional veterinary hospital (for the initial muscle biopsy and follow up after diagnosis).  Their information comes from the University of Minnesota College of Veterinary Medicine.  I promise I have someone "well versed" giving me advice ;-).

I'd also like to know your source for the information about a DMSO IV.  That is just plain scarey: DMSO is a solvent - I can't imagine when it'd be ok to use it intravenously.

If you'd like more information, feel free to check the website @ http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/Advances_in_PSSM/home.html.  As I said, your information seems very contrary to the research and information I have been reading.  I would be interested to see where you got your information.

Thanks

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
bbsmfg3
Reg. Dec 2006
Posted 2010-01-26 11:43 AM (#115735 - in reply to #115423)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 376
100100100252525
Location: Missouri
Mary, unfortunately, we have treated several over the years. It was Purdue University Vet Clinic that gave us the first info. That was back in the 1960's.

They are definitely protein intolerant, we have verified that with the ones we have had. All of those that we treated and kept, got along very well on very low protein diets. As I mentioned, even the legumes in the pastures can be a problem with most of them.

The severe cases, we've treated, they got 3 liters of DMSO IV every 24 hours for 3 days.

From what we have learned, it is true that they don't handle sugars well, but that is due to the intolerance to proteins. No way would I feed one alfalfa, that would be a sure way of causing more problems. Diets high in fat and very, very low in proteins works the best. I seriously doubt that it is genetic. Seen too many cases to believe that one. It is most often caused by a poor balance of exercise and diet. Poor balance is really the wrong term, but for lack of a better term, fits the case. Well conditioned horse are frequently fed high protein diets. If the horse is protein intolerant, then the conditions are right for the occurrence of the condition. You'll find horses with fine threaded muscular build are far less prone to the condition than the heavier coarse threaded muscular builds. You also find that poorly conditioned horse seldom have the problem.

Be a good idea to check with some folks that deal with racing QHs, they probably see more of it than any others.

Edited by bbsmfg3 2010-01-27 7:30 AM
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
flatlandfilly
Reg. Jun 2006
Posted 2010-01-26 10:11 PM (#115757 - in reply to #115735)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Veteran


Posts: 201
100100
Location: Lincoln, NE
That was back in the 1960's.

Is this a misprint? I wouldn't use info from the 1960's to treat human or animal. That was 50+ years ago. Science and technology have advanced light years since then. I'd stick with what current research recommends.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
bbsmfg3
Reg. Dec 2006
Posted 2010-01-27 7:28 AM (#115762 - in reply to #115423)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 376
100100100252525
Location: Missouri
Dear FlatlandFilly,

It is responses like this, that seriously hamper our efforts to treat our horses effectively.

One, you don't read very well. I said the original info came from the 1960's. We have built on that info and have treated animals with this condition in recent years.

Two, we have lost more info about treating horses than we have kept. Back when the horse was a major part of the human lively hood, they knew more about treating horses than we do currently. I still find remedies and aids in a old German vet hand book that predates 1900.

Some common sense application of remedies and treatments from the past, coupled with what's newer can put you in a much better position to treat and cure conditions of the present day horse. Proven experience with what works is impossible to beat. A good example, is the recommendation to feed this horse high protein feed. This condition has been proven to be partially caused by protein intolerance. All of the scientific advancements in the world will not change that. Sometimes are efforts to advance over shadow prior, proven experiences.

JustMary wrote "I'm looking for other suggestions for management. Regular exercise is recommended (difficult at this time of year because there is thick shoe-sucking mud everywhere!) for PSSM horses. Does anyone have other management ideas?"

I do believe she would not be asking for other suggestions if her current advise, from the current day "experts" was solving her problem. Her experience with the folks she is using for advise is also evidence of the differing opinions among the "experts". I can site you at least 4 vet clinics that differ from the ones she has sited.

All of the newer information in the world will not get around the fact that these horses must have a nearly totally protein free diet and regular daily exercise. If she wants to keep the horse, she may need to do things like, spray the pasture for legumes and put her with another animal that will keep her moving in the pasture. Otherwise, the mare will eventually die a horrid death. You do not want to see a horse die from this condition, it is something you would not wish on your worst enemy.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
JustMary
Reg. May 2008
Posted 2010-01-27 9:11 AM (#115770 - in reply to #115762)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Regular


Posts: 60
2525
Location: Missouri

bbsmfg3:  I really would like to see the websites or info that you are citing.  Dr. Beth Valentine is currently one of the leading recognized experts in treating PSSM/EPSM horses, as is the U of MN the leader in PSSM research.  They each recommend a diet with soaked alfalfa cubes or pellets, along with a normal-to-high protein diet, low starch/sugar with added dietary fat.  I haven't found any information (after numerous google searches) to contradict that advice.

I am looking for other advice because I have nothing better to do right now.  It would be pointless and counter-productive to try to longe or exercise her when it is impossible to do so with regularity, so I don't know whether or not it is working.  While she is turned out for the winter, I'm doing my homework/building a reference file.  Come spring time I'll have a full arsenal of information and will be ready should our current regimen not work.

I really would like to see your sources of information. 

Thanks again.



Edited by JustMary 2010-01-27 9:25 AM
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
bbsmfg3
Reg. Dec 2006
Posted 2010-01-27 12:09 PM (#115784 - in reply to #115423)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 376
100100100252525
Location: Missouri
JustMary, your in Missouri. Try the Mid Rivers Equine Clinic, or the University of Missouri or Texas A&M.

Your going to find, as I suspect you already have, that "expert" opinions very a great deal.

I know from personal experience what has, and has not, worked. We learned the hard way. It was the vets at Purdue Univ vet clinic that first got us going in the right direction. All of those vets are gone. I have no idea what they may tell you now. Each vet has their own opinion, and they very a lot. I can tell you, we have treated several of these and lost none of them short term. We did loose one that had a severe case and died 8 years after treatment. The 8 years were healthy active years, but very well guarded. He never had any legumes and was exercised regularly.

I believe the condition is more prevalent than we think, very few cases are properly, if at all, diagnosed. I believe you could intentionally create the condition with about any coarse muscle fiber horse, with the right combination of diet and exercise. Many, many horses that they claim are colicing are actually tying up as a result of this condition. Fortunately, most cases are mild and the same meds fix either. I am very skeptical about it being genetic. If it were genetic you could predict it occurring in selective horses. Yes, it is genetic in that the parentage of those that get it, are normally of the same build type(muscle fiber type)
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
huntseat
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2010-01-28 10:34 AM (#115836 - in reply to #115423)
Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


Expert


Posts: 1989
1000500100100100100252525
Location: South Central OK

Well , since 1960 we have learned lots.

  • Equine polysaccharide storage myopathy, also called EPSM or PSSM, is a metabolic muscular condition in horses that causes tying up, and is also related to a glycogen storage disorder.[27] While also seen in some draft horse breeds, PSSM has been traced to three specific but undisclosed bloodlines in Quarter Horses, with an autosomal recessive inheritance pattern.[28] 48% of Quarter Horses with symptoms of neuromuscular disease have PSSM. To some extent it can be diet controlled with specialized low-starch diets, but genetic testing is advised before breeding, as the condition exists at a subclinical level in approximately 6% of the general Quarter Horse population.[29]

    29. ^ Church, "ACVIM 2006", The Horse Online News

  • http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=191 and yes, it is related to sugar storage and yes, they found the genetic mutation, bad genes get passed on by breeding horses with bad genes...we have come quite a long way in the last 50 years!



  • Edited by huntseat 2010-01-28 10:43 AM
    share Top of the page Bottom of the page
    bbsmfg3
    Reg. Dec 2006
    Posted 2010-01-28 1:17 PM (#115845 - in reply to #115762)
    Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


    Extreme Veteran


    Posts: 376
    100100100252525
    Location: Missouri
    quote:"we have come quite a long way in the last 50 years!"

    Yes, now if we could just capture what we've lost in the last 200 years we'd be even better off.

    I believe my statement above was:
    quote:"
    Some common sense application of remedies and treatments from the past, coupled with what's newer can put you in a much better position to treat and cure conditions of the present day horse."
    share Top of the page Bottom of the page
    three beat
    Reg. Mar 2010
    Posted 2010-03-25 11:56 AM (#117992 - in reply to #115423)
    Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


    New User


    Posts: 1

    We also have a QH with PSSM.

    Based on vets advise, we are currently modifying his feed to increase protien, decrease carbs. We will be starting with short daily exercise in the next few weeks. Dr. Valberg's research and recommendations seem to be the most referenced. Has it worked for you so far? I read all the posts responding to your question of Jan. 18, 2010 and was wondering how things are working out and how your horse is responding?

    Do you have any advice, observations or cautions you can share?

    Thank you.

    share Top of the page Bottom of the page
    loveduffy
    Reg. Feb 2006
    Posted 2010-03-26 9:27 PM (#118044 - in reply to #115423)
    Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?



    Expert


    Posts: 1871
    10005001001001002525
    Location: NY
    I hope you can help her thought this
    share Top of the page Bottom of the page
    JustMary
    Reg. May 2008
    Posted 2010-04-07 2:41 PM (#118560 - in reply to #117992)
    Subject: RE: Advice for PSSM horse?


    Regular


    Posts: 60
    2525
    Location: Missouri
    Originally written by three beat on 2010-03-25 11:56 AM

    We also have a QH with PSSM.

    Based on vets advise, we are currently modifying his feed to increase protien, decrease carbs. We will be starting with short daily exercise in the next few weeks. Dr. Valberg's research and recommendations seem to be the most referenced. Has it worked for you so far? I read all the posts responding to your question of Jan. 18, 2010 and was wondering how things are working out and how your horse is responding?

    Do you have any advice, observations or cautions you can share?

    Thank you.

    Things have been going reasonably well.  She has not had an episode since last fall (before her actual diagnosis).  She is on a low starch ration; I add vitamin E, a calming supplement amd top dress with vegetable oil.  She is in light use and has been doing well.  If I take her anywhere to ride, I dose with acepromazine (per vet's approval/instructions).  I don't know what jher future holds, but things are not looking as dismal now as 4 months ago :).  Good luck with your horse.

    share Top of the page Bottom of the page
    Jump to page : 1
    Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
    Jump to forum :
    Search this forum
    Printer friendly version
    E-mail a link to this thread
    Message format
     

    '
    Registered to: Horse Trailer World
    (Delete all cookies set by this site)