Posted 2011-07-30 8:10 PM (#136255 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 504
I read the wiki article until paragraph two, where it lost all credibility. It's not a neutral article and its contents should be viewed with suspicion.
Posted 2011-07-30 8:26 PM (#136257 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 165 Location: Western Ar
Mam with all due respect it would appear to me that you live in a city or close to; Have never owned a farm and have absoutly no idea what farmers go through every day. Just a preconceived notion that it is a perfect world and everything is all Rosie. I will tell you the same thing i told the other lady; You don't have to worry about bidding against the killer buyer just give me your address and how many head you want and pay for part of the shipping. We will see how long that will last on the 5 acres you probably own. When you have a couple hundred head that your taking care of then you can join the abusers when you are broke and can't afford it. When is the last time you stayed up all night with one and put your heart and soul into saving it just for it to die. Flying H is right on what she has stated. You take one cow to the sale that you may not have birdshotted and didn't know about I can promise you that all devil will break loose and you will have a lot of exsplaining to do,
Posted 2011-07-30 9:09 PM (#136260 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 165 Location: Western Ar
Your post that Horse Meat is a Luxury Meat not a meat that goes to starving children; I believe it says all we need to know about you. With All Due respect
Posted 2011-07-30 11:57 PM (#136264 - in reply to #136249) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 3853 Location: Vermont
Originally written by flyinghfarm on 2011-07-30 7:16 PM
The chemically euthanized horse requires special disposal. For people with money, land, equipment or a combination of those... this can be done. For those without as much means, they must make harder choices. Should these poor people have perhaps researched more of the possible expenses, including end of life......certainly. But often they find this out at the least affordable time, and who am I to say that the modest price this horse might afford them, as it passes to humane slaughter is not needed for the most immediate needs of their family? These are hard subjects, and the answers are not entirely encapsulated in either money or emotion, but in facts, though they are hard to face, and still require common sense and hard work for the common good of man and animal. I remain appreciative of the original post of this thread being written from an especially well informed intelligent viewpoint. That is my final contribution to this thread.
Actually euthanized horses depending on laws, regulations and availability, a horse's body may be buried, cremated, rendered or taken to a landfill.
Posted 2011-07-31 7:03 AM (#136266 - in reply to #136254) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 282 Location: southcentral pennsylvania
As for horse meat being a "luxury" meat, I can not speak for all countries in the world, but can for Mongolia. 10 million head of livestock (horses, sheep, goats) and 1 million people. I spent almost 2 weeks on a horse trek in central Mongolia. And yes, I ate horse meat. Common item for the table.
Posted 2011-07-31 8:28 AM (#136268 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 504
I have in this discussion (and always) limited my discussion to the slaughter of American horses. The original post on this thread concerned American horses. No American horses or horse meat is exported to Mongolia. In some countries they eat dogs, in some they eat cats, in some they eat monkeys (even live monkeys), and in some they eat human fetuses. But, all of that is irrelevant to the slaughter of American horses for consumption by Europeans and Japanese. American horse meat is expensive and is destined for higher end restaurants. So, what is your point?
Posted 2011-07-31 9:30 AM (#136270 - in reply to #136268) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 282 Location: southcentral pennsylvania
I apologize, Phoresic, for my misinterpretation of one of your replies, i.e., "significant and meaningful differences between slaughter of horses for luxury meat consumption in foreign countries........." I was merely pointing out that it is not a "luxury" meat in all foreign countries.
Posted 2011-07-31 10:37 AM (#136272 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 504
No problem. It's just that people (who are new to the debate) can be easily confused by the many issues in the slaughter of American horses as the internet discussions tend to have wide swings and confusion of issues. If the discussion is not very focused it becomes even harder for them to form their opinions. For all of us who have been in this debate for a long time, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that many are new to it. If it weren't for them, I would not be in this discussion at all. I'll go out on a limb here and say that I think the things that people need to understand in order to form their own opinions include: 1) is it helpful or harmful to horses in general and individually to have slaughter of American horses as it exists today (and during the last 30 years) or is simply a matter of industry and personal profit motive, 2) is controlling/stopping the slaughter of American horses in America or in unregulated countries (and the related transportation) contrary to private property rights of individuals. Clearly, I think it is 100 percent profit motive and zero percent for horse - I'm not even saying that that makes it wrong, just that people who are trying to form their opinions need to understand this and not blindly accept that horses will be harmed if slaughter (and relating transportation) of American horses for non-personal human consumption is made illegal.I am a limited government person, but see that the government can have a role in the treatment of animals - though, of course, as governments do, that role will be expanded too far - but politically, we have bigger issues than horse slaughter facing us. It sounds like you had a cool trip and if you posted about it, I'd like to read about it.
Posted 2011-07-31 1:47 PM (#136274 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 690 Location: missouri
One idea... Soylent Green is making a comeback! Anyone recall the sci-fi movie from the 70's???? Where they took older people to some "Disneyworld type" place, killed them like livestock,then turned them into protein pills for the remaining population to eat???? This admistration is headed there ie; Medicare-Medicaid-Social Security cutbacks... threatened credit rating of the U.S., 10-20+% unemployment, etc. What are we talkin about here? We may need these horses to ride *not for entertainment* when they legislate our trucks out of existence...
Relax peeps, go have two glasses of Merlot, or Chardonay, or good ole Bud Light.
Posted 2011-07-31 4:17 PM (#136276 - in reply to #136268) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 406 Location: Minneapolis, MN
American horse meat is expensive and is destined for higher end restaurants. So, what is your point?
You're gonna have to back that statement up with a link or two. Beef is shipped all around the world, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the price of horse meat is less than that of beef. Given what the kill buyers are paying.
Posted 2011-08-01 11:50 AM (#136311 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 229
flyinghfarms, you provided a very thoughtful response, as did some others. It's hard times for some folks now and looking to get harder in the future. Every year I go to the Western States Horse Expo. The turnout was poor, both vendors and customers. However, I did see one new outfit and they were raffling something. Being a sucker for a charity raffle I decided to ask some questions before I plopped down a chuck of my shopping money. These folks were helping people who had lost both job and sometimes home and couldn't keep their horses. They were either re-homing or euthanizeing. $300-400 for kill and disposal is a fair chunk of change for somebody who doesn't even have a job. I live in Oregon and we are fifth in the nation per capita for food stamps. You can't much sell a horse around here unless it's something really fancy. And yes, people are just turning the horses loose in the national forests and it works quite well until winter. We've got big mustang corrals in the eastern part of the state, 500-2000 horses live there. These horses need to be fed all year long. As times get tougher, how can we collectively afford this? doughbelly, I agree. I'm sure that my little calves don't want to go to slaughter any more than a horse does. I don't think it matters to the 4H kids either. They like their steers just as much as another kid likes their horse. Kid's with tears in their eyes at the auction showing their steers. That said, my horses are going nowhere and will be planted with me. But I understand that other folks might not be so fortunate.
Posted 2011-08-01 12:46 PM (#136312 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 165 Location: Western Ar
I have been lucky enough to have leased extra pasture and Hay meadows I use approxx 100 rounds bales and 700 square bales each year to provide for horses that I have carried over in the last four or five years. I have a surplus of around 300 round bales and 3000 square bales that I sell to buyers that buy every year from me. This year this total will be cut in half. the people buying from me are in trouble and I can do nothing about it. We had a wet spring and the 1st cutting was around 30% short then we went into a drought with no end in sight.I do not even know if we will get a 2nd cutting.
This weekend I had 5 phone calls from Texas and One from New Mexico looking for hay,(I am not a hay broker) They are getting desperate, Normally in years past this area shipped a lot of hay to those areas. This year you cannot even buy hay here at any price right now. The Hay producers are even short themselves. I can tell you that there are a lot of producers selling out or severely cutting down for lack of hay. My point is cattle has a slaughter market to go to.
As I was making my morning runs to the Vet Clinic and local Coop I observed 5 different farmettes with horses ranging from 5 to 10 head. There was no grass in the pasture. They had no hay in the barn or stacked outside. If they could find hay and if they could afford $100 dollars a bale for it, figure how long it would take to deplete a family's financees that are already struggling. Now consider this effecting the entire south west and all the people in this same predictment. They have no where to sell 95% of these horses. They have no hay that they can buy so what do they do. If they hold on to them your animal cruealty people are getting involved which is a felony in Arkansas now. They really don't have a slaughter market to sell to. So you bright people that are against this slaughter tell me a bright idea. Cause more than likely if the weather don't change quick you are going to see some of the cruealest sights a person can imagine. I am so soft hearted I cannot even haul off our steers that we butcher. But I'll be damned if I let an animal sit in the pasture and die a slow miserable death. The only education I have came from being on the farm, So I really wouold like for some of these bright minded. educated people please tell me what the frickin soloution is.
Posted 2011-08-01 1:00 PM (#136313 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 504
We went through the worst drought in 500 years and the worst single year since 1725 or something not too long ago. Hay was scarce and expensive. Still the people who had their priorities right were able to provide for their animals. For many people, the FIRST thing they want to cut out of their budget is feeding and selling expenses for their animals, and that's the problem - especially coupled with the idea that it's too much trouble to give them away. Just takes too much effort, and most people put a ridiculous price on a horse and wont' take less, then send it off to slaughter rather than take the $2000 that it might have been worth when they priced it at $4500. This happens over and over and over.If the situation really did exist as you describe, then those people should have the horse euthanized (chemical or expert shot) and rendered or buried, whichever they want and can do rather than let the horse starve. You are talking about Texas and New Mexico, not NYC. The cost wouldn't be much more there than here, and that's up to $150. That being said, I do not believe your scenario is real.
Posted 2011-08-01 6:51 PM (#136330 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 45
I understand the sentimentality about horses, but as a former 4-Her I can tell you that those kids are just as attached to cattle, sheep, pigs, etc., as horses, seen plenty of tears at the conclusion of the fairs during the auction. After having been around horses since the 50's (I was born in '53), I have never seen horse prices so low. I don't know where you are from, Phoresic, but when you state people are asking $4500 for a $2000 horse, well you aren't in my area, nor are you really educated as to the problems and issues with the livestock market. I ride competitive trail and endurance, I picked up a weanling colt, full Arab, with excellent bloodlines, his granddaddy was a 100-mile horse, for $1 four years ago. Owner said she could keep him for nine months and wouldn't be able to sell him for what she had in him. Would liked to have given him to someone who could keep him a stallion, because he was such a good horse, and she had gelded his sire, due to economic times. I told her he was going to be gelded on my property, but if she found someone else who was willling to take him and keep him a stallion, I would let them have him, got no takers so I have a fine four-year-old young horse for $1. Times have only gotten worse. I got an e-mail today about several Arabian horses, that haven't been feed for three days due to a domestic dispute. They are in Ark., free for the taking, the pictures show they are nice. I have been looking lately for the right gaited horse, for a family member, and have found a few for free, (one was a nice Paso Fino registered gelding, very sweet, just too small for my relative's purposes, would be fine for a smaller adult), a few for around the $250 to $500 range. Now I live in eastern Kansas, one of the more prosperous areas, though we are having a heat wave and drought, we are having nothing like the folks in Texas, western Kansas and elsewhere, our corn may be burning up, but I still know we are lucky in comparison to many. I have plenty of pasture and won't have problems with hay this fall. I can take care of my five horses, three of which are old and lame, but they are my babies and they will stay with me as long as I can take care of them. I have had to put down six old horses, in the last ten years, all shooting them with the awful chemicals and paid to have them taken away, except for my dad's old stallion, paid to have him buried, though I have to admit I didn't like putting a horse in the ground with the poison leaking out of his body. Cost me quite a bit, I certainly am sympathethic to people who can't afford to do this. There is no excuse that we couldn't have humane slaughter places for unwanted horses. I would still chose to put my horses down with a vet at home, but I don't expect everyone who owns a horse to always have such funds, and quite frankly whether a horse is used for dog meat or whatever it is better than sticking poison in them to polute the ground. I have a friend who just acquired some special American Saddlebred horses from back east, auctioned off for little next to nothing, why?, because there was a catatrophic illness in the family and they went bankrupt. Any and all of us can be susceptible to that kind of bad luck, our horses may not our first concern when we are trying to save property and provide for our family. I know more than one farmer who had to sell off land and the kids' inheritance due to illness. I know that things are worse in the western states. Lots of noise about responsible breeding, too, but the reality is you can breed two outstanding horses, and still only get an average or below average colt. That's why breeders breed so many because that one special horse might be one out of hundred, or one out of thousand or more. I have seen some well-bred horses, with a big pricetag to boot, that I wouldn't take for free, and some average backyard horses that could come home with me in a heartbeat. Being a distance rider I have different interests than some, and I can appreciate all breeds and all types of horses, what I personally require is an athletic horse. As long as we have horses, for whatever purpose, pleasure, competition, ranching, etc., we will have excess animals and we need humane slaughter houses that are local, no need for injured horses to be shipped hundreds of miles. Oh, by the way, my vet is a personal friend of mine, she charges me less than her normal customers to put down a horse, last time was about $125, think she usually charges $175 or more, then there is the rendering people, they picked up the horse for about $150, probably the cost is more now since gas prices went up. That's been a few years ago. I would say it is at least $300. If you have several horses that is no small change in this part of the country.
Posted 2011-08-01 8:43 PM (#136335 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 504
People tried for 30 years to have humane slaughter of horses and failed. Establish a system and place that is truly humane, *then* the various sides can talk - but not before the system that has existed for the last 30 years has been totally revamped. Pro-slaughter people want to keep slaughtering the horses in the horrible system and talk about fixing the system. I say you fix the system *first* - no horse to slaughter until you *prove* that the system has been totally revamped - and that will never happen.
Posted 2011-08-01 11:15 PM (#136343 - in reply to #136340) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 504
That's not very polite. I readily admit that I am anti slaughter. I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I have an agenda. Are you saying that you will not convince me that slaughter of horses in the current system as it has existed for 30 years is acceptable? That is true. You will not change my mind as I investigated all of this quite thoroughly before forming my opinion. I am very well apprised of the facts, and have been for several years. Paying people to subject their horses to a system that is admittedly (by most people) very brutal is not a solution that is acceptable.There are cheaper options in the disposition of horses, as you, yourself admit - you opted for the cheaper option of burial. The poster above stated the cost of having her horse euthanized by her friend vet. Because of her friendly relationship, she probably had not investigated a cheaper option, though I did not ask her. Our renderer will shoot a horse (and seemed quite competent and knowledgeable in such things) for free when he comes to pick up an animal. So, there are options that can reduce the cost of killing a horse. There are also many people who will take in an extra horse or two if they have room. I have four that would have ended up at slaughter. There are legal and social pressures that prevent many people from starving a horse to death. If you have a horse in your pasture that is starving, your neighbors will see it and you will see it. If you send it to slaughter, you don't have to admit it to anyone, including yourself. The fact is that there are options for a horse that you don't want, but if you pay someone $300 to $900, they have no incentive to explore those options.
Posted 2011-08-01 11:45 PM (#136345 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 2957 Location: North Carolina
Just my $.02 to the discussion. Banning horse slaughter is excessive gov't. What is good policy for an urban area like NYC is bad policy for middle NC (where I am now, having lived in both places.) It is far better to to govern least and allow individuals to make the best for them choice. As Russia and China have learned, Central planning is a disaster for the individual. Too bad, we can't learn from those mistakes.
My vet said it best, Since ending US horse slaughter, he has seen more horses in "poor condition" (euphemism for starved) than in the rest of his career of many years. Is there cause and effect or just a coincidence? I think it's cause and effect
Posted 2011-08-01 11:47 PM (#136346 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 165 Location: Western Ar
Since you are so knowlegable of the facts and have investigated it so well; Lay it out here in black and white and quit spoutin all this BS. I would sincerely like to hear it cause I can tell you that I can go ballistic when I see someone actually abusing animals. Now if you are on here to just yank people's chain that is fine . Cause right now our high's are 110 degrees and dang sure to hot to work horses or do anything else and this sure breaks up the boredom
Posted 2011-08-01 11:52 PM (#136347 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 165 Location: Western Ar
New York City!! you got to be kidding me; LMBO and your trying to tell us the country facts of life. No wonder, do you even know how beef gets on your plate. you do know they have to kill it first.
Posted 2011-08-01 11:52 PM (#136348 - in reply to #136343) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 2957 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by Phoresic on 2011-08-01 8:15 PM
That's not very polite. I readily admit that I am anti slaughter. ...
Phoresic. It is not polite to inflict your views on me, yet you and your ilk have just done that by turning our gov't to your view. You have taken away my freedom to make a particular choice.
Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
One idea... Soylent Green is making a comeback! Anyone recall the sci-fi movie from the 70's???? Where they took older people to some "Disneyworld type" place, killed them like livestock,then turned them into protein pills for the remaining population to eat???? This admistration is headed there ie; Medicare-Medicaid-Social Security cutbacks... threatened credit rating of the U.S., 10-20+% unemployment, etc. What are we talkin about here? We may need these horses to ride *not for entertainment* when they legislate our trucks out of existence...