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Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2008-06-20 9:07 PM (#86098 - in reply to #86096)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Originally written by TIMEIT on 2008-06-20 9:31 PM

Bush 1 signed the bill to ban off shore drilling and Clinton signed the bill to do no drilling in ANWR   Thats the story and i am sticking to it...........

Soooo...what difference does that make?...

 For the average case, drilling in ANWR would reduce crude oil by 75 cents, out of a current $130, in 2025. This amounts to about a 0.5% change. The total production from ANWAR would be, in 2024, approximately 1% of the United States needs.

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loveduffy
Reg. Feb 2006
Posted 2008-06-20 9:24 PM (#86099 - in reply to #86096)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less



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maybe I am slow but the way I see it if everybody is driving at $ 4.35 - a gal why would the price drop if the demand for the gas and diesel has not. To drill would not bring the price down the speculator would keep the price up because they know you need the stuff if not the usa then they could and would sell it to anybody that would give  there the  price pre barrel if they got the stuff you wont they there are in the driver's seat
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Longrider
Reg. Oct 2004
Posted 2008-06-20 9:26 PM (#86100 - in reply to #86085)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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We can't refine the oil we would extract.

Unfortunately, The only legitimate short term solution is CONSERVATION.

Paul, you're exactly correct.  Conservation is the answer, not just finding more and more to whet the appetites of those who want cheap fossil fuels to consume in their Hummer so they can high roll.

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HWBar
Reg. Nov 2005
Posted 2008-06-20 11:34 PM (#86106 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less



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Conservation is the answer............. and $4.00 a gallon gas is encouraging the conservation, it's a shame that we overweight, rude, entitled Americans are forced into conservation by the price of gas, but it's true.

Maybe the friggin dumba*ses that we sent to DC can come up with an energy plan that will force us to conserve without a payment plan, but Osama-Bama is just going to tax us until we can't pay for gas anymore, and that in turn will cause us to conserve.

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muleskinner
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2008-06-21 4:47 AM (#86109 - in reply to #86096)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Originally written by TIMEIT on 2008-06-20 8:31 PM

Bush 1 signed the bill to ban off shore drilling and Clinton signed the bill to do no drilling in ANWR Thats the story and i am sticking to it...........
Your close. Congress passed the bill to drill in Anwar and Bill Clinton vetoed it,otherwise we could be pumping a million barrels per day from Anwar
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2008-06-21 10:49 AM (#86122 - in reply to #86109)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Originally written by muleskinner on 2008-06-21 5:47 AM

Originally written by TIMEIT on 2008-06-20 8:31 PM

Bush 1 signed the bill to ban off shore drilling and Clinton signed the bill to do no drilling in ANWR Thats the story and i am sticking to it...........
Your close. Congress passed the bill to drill in Anwar and Bill Clinton vetoed it,otherwise we could be pumping a million barrels per day from Anwar

What about ANWR - the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge? The controversy rages. As of today, there is no known oil in ANWR - it can't be known until the rocks are drilled. The U.S. Geological Survey, using sophisticated estimation techniques that factor in the geology and other "knowns," gives a best guess for the amount of oil that MAY be in ANWR at 10.4 billion barrels of technically recoverable oil. That sounds like a lot, but it's less than Prudhoe Bay contained. At about 13 billion barrels, Prudhoe was the largest oil field in North America, but most of its oil has been produced. In contrast, the world's largest oil field, Ghawar in Saudi Arabia, contained about 85 billion barrels, with much remaining.

That guesstimate of 10.4 billion barrels in ANWR works out to 520 days' supply at our current rate of consumption. But in reality, even if it's there, it won't be produced in a whoosh. Any oil will take years to come on-stream, and will be produced over a period of perhaps 20 years. A reasonable production rate over that time would be one million barrels per day - just 5% of today's 20 Mb/d consumption. Given that our rate of consumption is increasing by 4% to 5% each year, all the possible oil in ANWR would do nothing but help keep pace with demand growth. Helpful, but no panacea.

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HWBar
Reg. Nov 2005
Posted 2008-06-21 12:23 PM (#86126 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less



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Paul I agree with most of what you say, but how about we take another look at this "helpful" idea.

If there was an older gentleman who had his arms full of supplies and he was trying to go inside of a building and you happened to be standing there, would you just stand there and watch him struggle with the door? Or would you try and be "helpful" and open it for him?

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rsandi5218
Reg. Apr 2007
Posted 2008-06-21 1:26 PM (#86129 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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rsandi5218
Reg. Apr 2007
Posted 2008-06-21 1:34 PM (#86130 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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What if it's not about supply and demand or consumption. What if a barrel of crude trades on all global markets in USD. What if the USD has sunk in value and it takes more USD to make the same worth now, than it used too. What if that was the cause? More domestic drilling would still trade with the same USD and oil companies would just have more product. The global market is what's killing us.

randy
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Painted Horse
Reg. May 2005
Posted 2008-06-21 4:40 PM (#86135 - in reply to #86130)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less



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The higher cost will make us think about conservation. It does me!  And at the higher cost it makes the oil companies think about the alternatives. At some point some of our other energy resource become viable. The Oil Shale and Tar sands in the Green River Formation of Utah/Colorado are said to hold 1.2 to 1.8 Trillion Barrels of oil. They just need to spend the money to develop an economical  recovery method to get it.

Just out of college 30 years ago, I worked for a company that developed a jet engine that ran on powdered coal. Basically coal that was pulverized in a form similar to graphite powder.  The jet engine ran just fine on that fuel. It is not practical to fly a plane on coal because of the weight. But it had other viable uses. The turbine shaft produced electricity and the exhaust produced heat which was used to make steam. One small engine could produce the electrial and heating needs for remote manufacturing plant.

As resources become scares or econmomically out of reach, people will find and perfect other solutions.

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muleskinner
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2008-06-21 5:22 PM (#86137 - in reply to #86100)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Originally written by Longrider on 2008-06-20 9:26 PM


We can't refine the oil we would extract.

Unfortunately, The only legitimate short term solution is CONSERVATION.

Paul, you're exactly correct. Conservation is the answer, not just finding more and more to whet the appetites of those who want cheap fossil fuels to consume in their Hummer so they can high roll.

The people driving Hummers would probably think a duallie or sports chassis pulling a large LQ> trailer is high-rolling,the problem with conservation is most ever wants some-one else to do the conserving.
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muleskinner
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2008-06-21 5:41 PM (#86138 - in reply to #86122)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2008-06-21 10:49 AM

Originally written by muleskinner on 2008-06-21 5:47 AM

Originally written by TIMEIT on 2008-06-20 8:31 PM

Bush 1 signed the bill to ban off shore drilling and Clinton signed the bill to do no drilling in ANWR Thats the story and i am sticking to it...........
Your close. Congress passed the bill to drill in Anwar and Bill Clinton vetoed it,otherwise we could be pumping a million barrels per day from Anwar

What about ANWR - the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge? The controversy rages. As of today, there is no known oil in ANWR - it can't be known until the rocks are drilled. The U.S. Geological Survey, using sophisticated estimation techniques that factor in the geology and other "knowns," gives a best guess for the amount of oil that MAY be in ANWR at 10.4 billion barrels of technically recoverable oil. That sounds like a lot, but it's less than Prudhoe Bay contained. At about 13 billion barrels, Prudhoe was the largest oil field in North America, but most of its oil has been produced. In contrast, the world's largest oil field, Ghawar in Saudi Arabia, contained about 85 billion barrels, with much remaining.

That guesstimate of 10.4 billion barrels in ANWR works out to 520 days' supply at our current rate of consumption. But in reality, even if it's there, it won't be produced in a whoosh. Any oil will take years to come on-stream, and will be produced over a period of perhaps 20 years. A reasonable production rate over that time would be one million barrels per day - just 5% of today's 20 Mb/d consumption. Given that our rate of consumption is increasing by 4% to 5% each year, all the possible oil in ANWR would do nothing but help keep pace with demand growth. Helpful, but no panacea.

Why is it that a milion barrels per day of new oil would not effect the price of oil,but even a slight decrease in current supply sends the prices sky-rocketing,but there's really no point in discussing this anymore,no minds are going to be changed,but there will be some sad folks up in the cold country this winter,when heating oil hits it all time high.,if it gets high enough people will be begging for drilling and the voices of the tree hugging leftists will be drowned out.
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2008-06-21 7:07 PM (#86141 - in reply to #86138)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Originally written by muleskinner on 2008-06-21 6:41 PM

Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2008-06-21 10:49 AM

Originally written by muleskinner on 2008-06-21 5:47 AM

Originally written by TIMEIT on 2008-06-20 8:31 PM

Bush 1 signed the bill to ban off shore drilling and Clinton signed the bill to do no drilling in ANWR Thats the story and i am sticking to it...........
Your close. Congress passed the bill to drill in Anwar and Bill Clinton vetoed it,otherwise we could be pumping a million barrels per day from Anwar

What about ANWR - the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge? The controversy rages. As of today, there is no known oil in ANWR - it can't be known until the rocks are drilled. The U.S. Geological Survey, using sophisticated estimation techniques that factor in the geology and other "knowns," gives a best guess for the amount of oil that MAY be in ANWR at 10.4 billion barrels of technically recoverable oil. That sounds like a lot, but it's less than Prudhoe Bay contained. At about 13 billion barrels, Prudhoe was the largest oil field in North America, but most of its oil has been produced. In contrast, the world's largest oil field, Ghawar in Saudi Arabia, contained about 85 billion barrels, with much remaining.

That guesstimate of 10.4 billion barrels in ANWR works out to 520 days' supply at our current rate of consumption. But in reality, even if it's there, it won't be produced in a whoosh. Any oil will take years to come on-stream, and will be produced over a period of perhaps 20 years. A reasonable production rate over that time would be one million barrels per day - just 5% of today's 20 Mb/d consumption. Given that our rate of consumption is increasing by 4% to 5% each year, all the possible oil in ANWR would do nothing but help keep pace with demand growth. Helpful, but no panacea.

Why is it that a milion barrels per day of new oil would not effect the price of oil,but even a slight decrease in current supply sends the prices sky-rocketing,but there's really no point in discussing this anymore,no minds are going to be changed,but there will be some sad folks up in the cold country this winter,when heating oil hits it all time high.,if it gets high enough people will be begging for drilling and the voices of the tree hugging leftists will be drowned out.

A million extra barrels a day WITHOUT Conservation would be status quo...the price of oil will NOT go down, because OIL is NOT a DOMESTIC COMMODITY, but a WORLD COMMODITY, and WORLD DEMAND is/WAS(?) increasing...(This could be under review as currently ALL Indian Airlines are about to go broke, due to RAPIDLY INCREASING fuel costs, high level meeting are going on as we speak...)

If you look at the multi-national oil companies...there are NOT many that are purely U.S. corporations anymore...they sell to the highest bidder...whether that be the U.S., China, India, whoever...

Short of a massive recession or worse a depression Gasoline will never go below $3.00/gallon...

The real sad end to this story would be to do the exploratory drillings and then discover there is less oil there than originally anticipated...

 



Edited by PaulChristenson 2008-06-21 7:10 PM
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HWBar
Reg. Nov 2005
Posted 2008-06-22 6:53 AM (#86156 - in reply to #86141)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less



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Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2008-06-21 7:07 PM

 

The real sad end to this story would be to do the exploratory drillings and then discover there is less oil there than originally anticipated...

 

 

 

 

Why would that be so sad?...........To use 2,000 of 19million acres in an effort to find and capture a resource that is so desperately needed is not "SAD" it's "SMART".

An unfolded newspaper represents the 19million acres, A Capital "O", in the type, on the paper represents the 2000 acres. The friggin moose will go find another place to romance his gals.

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loveduffy
Reg. Feb 2006
Posted 2008-06-22 9:47 AM (#86159 - in reply to #86156)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less



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it is time to find a other sources of energy keep looking if the USA can come up with something better then oil then we (USA) can sell it that would drop the price
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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2008-06-22 10:51 AM (#86161 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Regardless of every conservation measure we incorporate, or every drilling we conduct, the price of energy and the durable goods it effects, will never again be at the low rates we once had. Because energy is sold in a global market, and we are only one of its purchasers, we have to pay the going price as dictated by the various countries all vying for the same product.

Any financial relief and lowering of the costs by new drilling. will not be measured in dollars, it will be in cents per gallon. By then, the additional costs of the goods we consume, will have exceeded any energy savings.

We are at the beginning of a new era in the costs of living. Personal conservation is one of the most affective means to save money. Many new sources of energy involve more energy to produce than they offer in benefits. A new, cheap resource is not yet available. We have to adapt or we will fail.

Gard

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threeman
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2008-06-22 10:54 AM (#86162 - in reply to #86137)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Originally written by muleskinner on 2008-06-21 5:22 PM

Originally written by Longrider on 2008-06-20 9:26 PM


We can't refine the oil we would extract.

Unfortunately, The only legitimate short term solution is CONSERVATION.

Paul, you're exactly correct. Conservation is the answer, not just finding more and more to whet the appetites of those who want cheap fossil fuels to consume in their Hummer so they can high roll.

The people driving Hummers would probably think a duallie or sports chassis pulling a large LQ> trailer is high-rolling,the problem with conservation is most ever wants some-one else to do the conserving.

 

Probably what they think when the IH4400 comes by because we left late and we are running 80.

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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2008-06-22 7:10 PM (#86172 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Here's some interesting technology that may have merit. Don't know how big a GN it would tow or the pin weight on the rear axle. Don't think it comes in a dually, and forget the aroma of diesel.

   http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html

Gard

 

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loveduffy
Reg. Feb 2006
Posted 2008-06-22 8:58 PM (#86173 - in reply to #86172)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less



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what gets me is right now I feel like a hostage -!!!!if the people who have oil say no oil to the USA then what???? I know this is going to read bad but I like the USA to be in the drivers sit of are own country I think we have to many country's that drive are world ( USA)
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2008-06-23 6:03 AM (#86179 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Even with this oil prices went up...which reinforces the fact that world demand has INCREASED!!!

Oil minister: Saudi willing to increase crude output

AP
Posted: 2008-06-22 18:56:17
JIDDAH, Saudi Arabia (AP) - Facing strong U.S. pressure and global dismay over oil prices, Saudi Arabia said Sunday it will produce more crude this year if the market needs it. But the vague pledge fell far short of U.S. hopes for a specific increase and may do little to lower prices immediately.

For now, the current "oil shock" leaves Western countries with little choice but to move toward nuclear power and change their energy-consumption habits, Britain's prime minister warned at a rare meeting of oil-producing and consuming nations.

Saudi Arabia - the world's top crude exporter - called the gathering Sunday to send a message that it, too, is concerned by high oil prices inflicting economic pain worldwide.

Instead, the meeting highlighted the sharp disagreement between producers like Saudi Arabia and consuming countries like Britain and the United States over the core factors driving steep price hikes. Oil closed near $135 a barrel on Friday - almost double the price a year ago.

The cost of gasoline also has become a sore point in the U.S. presidential race, with President Bush and presumed Republican nominee John McCain calling on Congress to lift its long-standing ban on offshore oil and gas drilling. Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic nominee, has said such moves will do nothing to ease American consumers' pain short-term.

The U.S. and other nations argue that oil production has not kept up with increasing demand, especially from China, India and the Middle East. But Saudi Arabia and other OPEC countries say there is no shortage of oil and instead blame financial speculation and the falling U.S. dollar.

Saudi Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi said the kingdom is willing to produce more than the 9.7 million barrels of oil a day it had already planned to produce in July - if the market requires it.

But the Saudi oil minister also blamed speculators and asserted supply is not the problem.

"In today's environment, I am convinced that supply and demand balances and crude oil production levels are not the primary drivers of the current market situation," al-Naimi said. Officials and energy executives from more than 35 countries thronged a large hall where he spoke.

King Abdullah also said Saudi Arabia is not the culprit.

The king cited several factors driving "the unjustified, swift rise in oil prices" including "speculators who play the market out of selfish interests," plus higher consumption by developing countries and higher taxes in some countries.

U.S. Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman, however, said earlier that U.S. officials had found no evidence speculators are driving up prices.

Saudi officials have consistently said the country would provide enough oil to supply the market. The kingdom announced a 300,000 barrel per day production increase in May and said before the start of the Jiddah meeting that it would add another 200,000 barrels per day in July, raising total daily output to 9.7 million barrels.

Both announcements had already been factored into oil prices before Sunday's meeting - and neither did much to stem their rise. Total worldwide crude production is about 85 million barrels per day.

The Saudi output increase is "going to help a little bit, maybe reduce prices just a little," New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, a Democrat and former President Bill Clinton's energy secretary, said on CNN's "Late Edition" program. "It won't be significant."

It remained unclear if Sunday's announcements would have any greater effect.

At least one analyst said he thought they would only spur prices higher.

The oil market has been in a holding pattern to see if Saudi Arabia would take more aggressive steps toward boosting output, said Stephen Schork, an oil market analyst and trader in Villanova, Pa. The market's likely to view the announcement as a sign it will not, he said.

"We don't know anything more today that we didn't know Friday," said Schork, who predicted "$150 (a barrel) here we come."

Linda Rafield, senior oil analyst at energy trade publication Platts, said she expected the reaction to be less dramatic.

"I don't see prices going into freefall at the start of trading this evening, but I don't see the bulls being given any reason to bid prices back up to the $140 level," she said.

Bush has visited Saudi Arabia twice this year to push the country's king to increase oil production but has little to show for the effort.

To address long-term concerns about supply, al-Naimi said Saudi Arabia also is willing to invest to boost its spare oil production capacity above the current 12.5 million barrels per day planned for the end of 2009 - again, if the market requires it.

That reversed previous indications the country would not go beyond that figure.

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown echoed U.S. officials' calls for commitments of specific production increases. Such actions would help ensure that "instead of uncertainty and unpredictability, there is greater certainty, and instead of instability, there is greater stability," he said.

But he and Bodman also urged consuming countries to increase energy efficiency and invest in alternative sources of fuel. Brown said the high prices - what he termed an "oil shock" - leave industrialized countries with few choices but turning more to nuclear power and lowering energy consumption.

A joint statement issued by participants also urged countries to improve energy efficiency. The vaguely worded statement also promoted investment in spare capacity and called for improved transparency and regulation of financial markets, but provided few specifics - again highlighting the confusion and disagreements over the core causes of oil's price surge.

Abdullah called for the creation of a $1 billion energy initiative to help poor countries combat fuel prices and said Saudi Arabia would contribute $500 million to provide loans to finance development and energy projects.

Associated Press reporters Donna Abu-Nasr in Jiddah and Adam Schreck and John Wilen in New York contributed to this report.
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loveduffy
Reg. Feb 2006
Posted 2008-06-23 9:37 PM (#86223 - in reply to #86179)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less



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Saudi will give loans out to country that can not pay for the oil  already. that could put these country's at the hand of the Saudi. the article did not say if Saudi would sell the oil at a lower price or that the oil company would  decrease the price if the oil was cheaper everybody is still maken money at a very hight price
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Tresvolte
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2008-06-24 8:04 AM (#86243 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less




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This makes for interesting reading...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jun/24/enron-loophole-keeps-oil-speculation-unleashed/

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olehossgal
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2008-06-25 5:35 PM (#86368 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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  With all due respect to the different opinions that have been expressed here....as one who's been around quite a while(I'm nearly 67), I believe gard has it pretty well pegged. I do not believe that energy prices will ever go 'back down' by much, and that the only thing that *might* really help is to learn to be much more conservative. Of course, that would mean that Americans, many of whom, in my observation, feel very 'entitled' and are very 'spoiled' to doing whatever they please, would actually have to think of someone besides themselves on an ongoing basis. I'd be very pleasantly surprised to see that happen, but am not going to hold my breath! Example: try driving at around 55-60 on the interstate...it is WELL documented that that speed gives the best gas mileage, but... clearly, most drivers are just too damned important for it to take THEM a bit longer to get where they are going....it would just be too much of a 'sacrifice' to allow more time to get there, I guess. One wonders how we EVER survived in previous times?? (If I sound disgusted, it is because I AM...) I have been around long enough to be QUITE sure that the world wouldn't screech to a halt if the pace slowed down a bit...but I am in a distinct minority, I guess...a driver passed me on a double yellow line yesterday, after I had the audacity to pull onto the highway from my side road when (it turned out to be a 'she'!)was less than a mile away, and I didn't 'stomp' on my accelerator for a 'jackrabbit' takeoff(as do most drivers nowadays; can you say "WORSE gas mileage?")...then when we got up to the shiney new 4 lane section,I  could see her flailing her hands and posturing because she got behind a VERY cautious driver in a section where ongoing 'construction' had traffic down to a single lane per side....and where was she headed in such an all-consuming hurry? Why, to the new WALMART, of course!

I agree about ethanol--what a boondoggle, with the gov't, in usual manner, 'falling for' an 'answer to our problems' that just 'ain't so'. No, I suppose I don't blame the farmers who are getting much bigger prices for their crop, but.....

I believe we DO, as a society, need to GET WITH IT in development of a VARIETY of alternatives! Some will work one place, others, better in another situation--but NONE will work if we don't get busy and 'make' them do so!

(Ironic that the last link cited concerned yet another wonderful 'gift' to our society from the CROOKS at ENRON....)

Flame away if you must; I've spent long hours outdoors in my life, and my ole hide is tough!

Margo in New Mexico(again, burning...we need RAIN!)

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hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2008-06-25 8:02 PM (#86373 - in reply to #85966)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Dave you are totally right. We need to open up our own sites now. Why should every other oil producing country drill offshore but us? We have the technology now to do it right. Even Katrina didn't destroy the sites in the Gulf. We also have to keep developing alternative sources of energy. That is key!! But we need to be free of Chavez and the Middle East now!
I signed the petition the day it came out!
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muleskinner
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2008-06-25 10:16 PM (#86376 - in reply to #86368)
Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less


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Location: Danielsville,Ga.
Originally written by olehossgal on 2008-06-25 5:35 PM

With all due respect to the different opinions that have been expressed here....as one who's been around quite a while(I'm nearly 67), I believe gard has it pretty well pegged. I do not believe that energy prices will ever go 'back down' by much, and that the only thing that *might* really help is to learn to be much more conservative. Of course, that would mean that Americans, many of whom, in my observation, feel very 'entitled' and are very 'spoiled' to doing whatever they please, would actually have to think of someone besides themselves on an ongoing basis. I'd be very pleasantly surprised to see that happen, but am not going to hold my breath! Example: try driving at around 55-60 on the interstate...it is WELL documented that that speed gives the best gas mileage, but... clearly, most drivers arejust too damned important for it to take THEM a bit longer to get where they are going....it would just be too much of a 'sacrifice' to allow more time to get there, I guess. One wonders how we EVER survived in previous times?? (If I sound disgusted, it is because I AM...) I have been around long enough to be QUITE sure that the world wouldn't screech to a halt if the pace slowed down a bit...but I am in a distinct minority, I guess...a driver passed me on a double yellow line yesterday, after I had the audacity to pull onto the highway from my side road when (it turned out to be a 'she'!)was less than a mile away, and I didn't 'stomp' on my accelerator for a 'jackrabbit' takeoff(as do most drivers nowadays; can you say "WORSE gas mileage?")...then when we got up to the shiney new 4 lane section,I could see her flailing her hands and posturing because she got behind a VERY cautious driver in a section where ongoing 'construction' had traffic down to a single lane per side....and where was she headed in such an all-consuming hurry? Why, to the newWALMART, of course!

I agree about ethanol--what a boondoggle, with the gov't, in usual manner, 'falling for' an 'answer to our problems' that just 'ain't so'. No, I suppose I don't blame the farmers who are getting much bigger prices for their crop, but.....

I believe we DO, as a society, need to GET WITH IT in development of a VARIETY of alternatives! Some will work one place, others, better in another situation--but NONE will work if we don't get busy and 'make' them do so!

(Ironic that the last link cited concerned yet another wonderful 'gift' to our society from the CROOKS at ENRON....)

Flame away if you must; I've spent long hours outdoors in my life, and my ole hide is tough!

Margo in New Mexico(again, burning...we need RAIN!)

Margo: No need to flame. Your assessment is very credible. I just read a press release from the AP ,saying in the year 2030 90% of the worlds energy will still come from fossil fuels,this alternative energy ,for the most part, is still pie in the sky . conservation will only work,if it is mandated,ie,rationing.so the oil thats in the ground will have to be produced ,even if it does take ten years,we will need it more then than now.but it won't have much effect on prices.
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