Posted 2006-07-13 11:46 AM (#44556 - in reply to #44551) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Member
Posts: 31 Location: Nashville, TN
First of all....what does turn out space in Europe have to do with anything?
Second of all....I am not suggesting that ANYONE has to buy or use or even like a Brenderup trailer(nor do I give a horses hiney). You, however, were implying that if any one uses or thinks about using a Brenderup that they were doing it simply out of human convenience and that they had NO concern regarding their horse's safety. And I take offense to that and that isn't a fair statement. If these trailers were so "unsafe" for the animals they would not be so successful in ANY country. I too doubt that all European horses are pulled in B-ups but you can't argue with 50+ years of success. In addition, can anyone supply the factual data (data....not what is percieved as common sense) showing that one trailer is safer than another in an accident. If so, and the data show that B-ups are less safe than another trailer then great, they should be taken off the market.
The only reason I brought up this subject was because I wanted to know about SAFELY trailering a horse with an existing vehicle in ANY trailer and B-up has this claim of being specific for that need. Many have supplied good, solid arguments and the conclusion is that the towing vehicle and the trailer must match (obviously) and that B-up may be too generous with their claims of small vehicle, regardless of the braking system. That IS useful information and a warrented opinion.
And REALLY let's be honest aren't all trailers for human convenience; so that we can have fun on off-site trails, go to Dressage competitions, camping etc. Back in the day people would ride to where they needed to be or pony a horse off of a carriage. The trailer in and of itself is an invention of "human convenience". I am sure any horse would tell you that any trailering is a pain for them. And if there is no such thing as a "safe" horse trailer....then we are all guilty putting our lifestyle above the best interest of our horses saftey. It seems that the safest horse trailer is one that has a smart driver behind the wheel of an appropriate vehicle.
And finally, the bitless bridle was not a comparison of safety but rather another example of an inflammatory subject. I fully understand that the bitless bridle is not a horse safety issue but it seems that people who have them love them and people who think they are strange criticize them.
Posted 2006-07-13 12:19 PM (#44558 - in reply to #44557) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Member
Posts: 31 Location: Nashville, TN
I'm finished. Thanks again. I have learn a lot. I promise not to bring it up again but I will enjoy lurking when the next innocent victim gets trapped into this debate.
Posted 2006-07-13 12:41 PM (#44563 - in reply to #44549) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Member
Posts: 23
Originally written by Flush on 2006-07-13 10:38 AM
Majoras,
I hope you got what you came for. If you do go with a B-up, please post back here and let us know your experience. I think my "owner=thumbs up" "non-owner = thumps down" prediction was true again
TwoAppys,
As far as people talking about things they know little about, you may want to take your own advice when it comes to trailer brakes. Just so you know, I am a mechanical engineer and have spent quite a bit of time getting this stuff pounded in my brain. The only time your Brenderup trailer brakes work is when the trailer is applying a force against your car (pushing). They simply will not work any other way. Now if it is a good brake system that is adjusted properly, the amount of force that it pushes with will be quite small. You probably don't feel the pushing because it is so small, but to say the trailer pushes zero on the car is just dead wrong, no matter how many smilies you use
Once the the brakes of the trailer are applied and the trailer slows to a speed just slightly less than the car, It indeed does stop pushing on the car. If the car continues to slow, the process will repeat. Brenderup did not invent this concept. They do it in a unique way, but the principal is the same.
If you just said the pushing on the car is so small it is not noticable, I would have left it alone, but when you said "No push on the car! Nevah evah any push on the car!" It was clear you don't undestand how your brakes actually work!
I do know how they work. See, unlike most poeople in here claiming to know how they work, engineer or not, I actually have a Brenderup and USE IT. Just about on a daily basis, how about that. A strange concept, I know.
From the Brenderup site :
Only BRENDERUP REAL® TRAILERS employs INERTIA® 4-wheel brakes designed to operate as the driver comes off the accelerator pedal and before getting to the brake pedal.Under ALL circumstances whenever the trailer tries to push on the tow vehicle the trailer brakes are being applied in direct proportion to the weight of the trailer at the time and the rate of deceleration.The INERTIA® brake system also has an independent parking brake, emergency breakaway and antilock characteristics.
Whenever the trailer TRIES to push the tow vehicle. See? TRIES. The instant the car slows down (or trailer speeds up,) the coupler moves, the trailer brakes activate. There is no lag time. There is no push on the car. EVAH!
Either that or it's soooooo freakin' slight that no one can feel it. If it's that slight, well, then it's nothing to me. If that is the case, I stand corrected. But I want to SEE PROOF first!
Posted 2006-07-13 12:52 PM (#44564 - in reply to #44511) Subject: You guys crack me up ! ! !
Veteran
Posts: 190 Location: Texas
This is one of the funniest debates that occurs on this website.
Passion and "technology" and the usual "FACTS" keep me rolling on the floor and laughing.
I especially like the how safe are they in a roll-over tangent. (Is the debate there whether it is safer to bounce around in a can vs. getting crushed in a can?) Can't wait for the airbag side guard beam, seat belt options. If safety were really the absolute first consideration, everyone would slow down by 15 or 20 miles per hour. They wouldn't drive on urban freeways, etc.
The lack of turnout in Europe is a great tangent too; how did that get into this discussion? (FYI, my experience in that area leads me to believe that they get it in the European country side and they don't get much in the cities . . . not much different from here in the US . . . but who really cares!)
So good to be back from my trip out west; Terrific to get back and see the debates still rage.
Posted 2006-07-13 12:55 PM (#44566 - in reply to #44426) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Expert
Posts: 2689
There are MANY things that you just don't have to have in order to know that you want to NOT have them.
BTW, registering a trademark (or pretending to) on words such as "REAL" and "INERTIA" doesn't carry much credibility. You have merely quoted ad copy.
If you try to THINK this through you will eventually come to the conclusion that Isaac Newton probably DID have it about right - well, close enough (-:
Posted 2006-07-13 1:11 PM (#44568 - in reply to #44542) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Member
Posts: 23
Originally written by Reg on 2006-07-13 9:14 AM
You ONLY need to review lo-skool fysiks to understand what is going on with ANY sort of surge brake. Whether you decide to draw it up as a kinetic energy model or as a simple force diagram, there is no MAGIC added by including the name Brenderup. Ask yourself this very simple question; Where does the working force come from that actuates the trailer's brakes ? If you STILL get stuck at the coupler mechanism... ask yourself if it would work with a "zero mass" tow vehicle in front. Gottit ? good. ...and oh, by the way - there is a small spring in the coupler mechanism that has to be overcome before ANY trailer braking can occur. This is to help prevent "hunting", but you probably knew that already. OTOH, if your trailer is holding your car/truck back on downgrades, maybe that is the part that is missing or has failed ?
My Brenderup doesn't hold me back on downgrades, why would it? Because of a spring? You don't know Brenderups very well. If yours is doing something strange, better get it fix--Oh, shoot! I forgot, you don't have one!! There's never any lag with my brenderup brakes, that I have ever felt or know of. If there is with yours--oh, I did it again! I doubt there's even a spring in there. Do you have a picture of it or some kind of proof? Because as far as I know, it's some sliding thing. I don't recall hearing anything about a spring. But I could be wrong!
I LOVE going down twisty, turny, steep major mountains. While all the electric brake people are p00ping themselves and creeping down like snails because they are being pushed, I have no problems whatsoevah. None. Nothing. Zero. A walk in the park. <--- Like this!
I FEEL NO PUSHING! Therefore, if I am being pushed, it must be soooo slight that it doesn't even register. Not down hills, not coasting, never felt any push. So to that I say: SO WHAT!? You say it's pushing the car. Well, maybe on paper. But not when you're driving the darn thing! (You know what I mean!) Even the Brenderup site says, when the trailer tries to push the car, the brakes come on. TRIES to push it. The brakes activate! TRIES to PUSH. How do you explain that? PLEASE don't say marketing ploy. I beg you!
Posted 2006-07-13 1:44 PM (#44570 - in reply to #44426) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Member
Posts: 40 Location: Richmond, VA
The ONLY reason I brought turnout in Europe up is because someone said something to the effect that Benderups were used in Europe, so we should use them here.
I merely used turnout as an example that just b/c something is done in Europe doesn't mean it is the BEST thing for people here to do.
When I talk about safety, I'm not ONLY talking about trailer construction. I view a tow vehicle and trailer as a UNIT. The fact that Benderup encourages insufficient tow vehicles is a HUGE component of safety.
And if breaking were all there is to tow vehicle adequacy, we'd all be hauling with Explorers.
www.equispirit.com
For anyone interested in hauling safety---even if you don't want their trailers.
Long before they made trailers, Neva Scheve was a pioneer in horse safety and comfort research.
As to the crash testing, well, we just don't have data.
Again, I ask, why was Benderup ever designed in the first place?
Posted 2006-07-13 2:08 PM (#44572 - in reply to #44570) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Member
Posts: 31 Location: Nashville, TN
Originally written by chevalnoir on 2006-07-13 1:44 PM
Again, I ask, why was Benderup ever designed in the first place?
And again, I ask, why was ANY trailer designed in the first place....Brenderup, Equispirit, Sundowner etc, etc, etc.....
No crash data.....no arguement.
I agree that one should not push the size of their towing vehicle. But again, what factual data is there to suggest that B-ups CAN'T be pulled by the smaller vehicles. Again....I am not talking about looking at one and sizing up the trailer versus the vehicle.
B-up must have done it's homework. In lawsuit happy America, if there was a possibility for a lawsuit due to inaccurate representation of what a trailer can do...it would have happened..
Anyone know of one.
But to my comments, the same applies since I don't have data that small vehicles can pull B-ups.
So, really we (including myself) should stop arguing in the unfactual and I will try to find some solid data. If I find it from an independent source, then I will share.
By-the-was Chevalnoir,
If there IS no crash test data for any trailer...how do you know which company REALLY puts horse safety as #1. And if this person was a pioneer in equine safety research where did they record/store their data. HMMMMMMM
SO until we see data...really none of us have a real argument.
Posted 2006-07-13 2:20 PM (#44577 - in reply to #44426) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Regular
Posts: 59 Location: Colorado
TwoAppys,
I am sure that YOU don't feel the trailer pushing against the car. You might say if the force is so small so what, and to that I more or less agree. We were simply trying to educate you a little on how these brakes work. If you don't care to think about it, that is up to do.
Imagine if you hooked up your trailer to your car. Now imagine if you could stick you finger up inbetween the ball of your car and the trailer coupler. Your finger would go behind the ball, but in front of the coupler. Now imagine you have someone drive your rig at 3mph while you walk along with your finger stuck up in there. Now have the person in the car slam on the brakes. I GUARANTEE YOU your finger will get pinched. That same force you feel on your finger is the force being applied to your car.
Other than you doing that, it will be very hard to PROVE to you there is force being transfered from the trailer to the car.
There is no magic telemetry that tells the trailer to stop. The force (although slight) of the trailer's inertia pushing into the car is what actuates the brake coupler. Think of the brake coupler as a brake pedal, because that is exactly what it is. Remember you have to PUSH on a brake pedal to activate it. The pedal is pushing on your foot with as much force as you are pushing on it. I think that it is the concept you are not getting.
If you actually stop and think about it, rather than just trying to argue you would realize there HAS to be some transfer of force, otherwise how are the trailer brakes being activated???
Again, I like Brenderup so don't think I am against them. If money weren't a factor it is the trailer I would buy. In this case however their marketing slogans have worked well on someone.
Posted 2006-07-13 4:26 PM (#44580 - in reply to #44570) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Veteran
Posts: 190 Location: Texas
There are several different brands of trailers available in Europe. Most of them are pretty similar to the Brenderup. The one in this picture is Thule brand. As far as I know, Brenderup is the only European manufacturer that has an arrangement to sell their trailers (assembled in Midland, TX) in the US. You can see several other brands at this website http://www.towahorse.co.uk/
There are many different brands of them. They do work. They don't kill horses. Bazillions of miles have been driven. Thousands of them are used every week. Thousands and thousands of them have happy satisfied owners.
I worry much more about stupid or inattentive drivers than I do about horsetrailers brands and or horsetrailer engineering.
As pointless as this thread, is I really do enjoy it. Reminds me of when my kids were young. Those really were good times!
Since 1997, all new drivers have been given a category B (car) driving licence only, which limits the weight of vehicle they can drive and trailer they can tow.
If you passed your test on or after 1st January 1997, then you can drive a car and trailer so long as the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and the maximum laden weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, regardless of whether the trailer is loaded or not at the time.
To add to the weight entitlement in order to tow trailers such as twin axle horse trailers drivers need to pass a practical category B+E (car and trailer) test. If the towing vehicle has more than eight seats, (i.e. a Landrover 110 Station wagon), unless you passed your test before 1st January 1997, you will have to take a minibus test before you can drive it, or a minibus towing test if you want to tow a horse trailer with it.
The tests take approximately one and a half hours and are conducted at DSA large goods vehicle testing centres.
The fine for 'driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence' is a £1000 and 3 - 6 penalty points. An unlicensed driver would be unlikely to have valid insurance which carries a further fine of £5,000 and 3 - 6 penalty points. For a new driver, this could mean losing their licence altogether under the New Drivers Act, and having to retake their theory and practical tests. . Drivers who obtained their licence before 1997 were given full category B + E licence entitlement automatically.
Colin Maddock, of The Driving Standards Agency Customer Service Unit says: "The law was changed in 1997 as part of a number of driver licensing changes aimed at enhancing driver safety through the harmonisation of licensing procedures across the European Union.
In the year 2001-2002, we conducted just 299 car and trailer tests against 1.3 million car tests, and we're concerned that some new drivers are going on to drive cars towing trailers without first acquiring the correct driving licence entitlement.”
The test
The test is split into 2 sections, off-road manoeuvring and on road driving. The off-road manoeuvring part has 3 exercises - reversing around a pylon (B) and into a coned bay (C) (see picture below), 20 mph controlled stop and a hill start. You will also be required to uncouple and couple the trailer.
The on-road drive lasts about an hour and covers a route of 15 to 20 miles and looks at the driver’s ability to control the longer, heavier combination and to read the road well ahead, be able to react to hazards in good time because of the extra weight and stopping distance.
Posted 2006-07-13 5:11 PM (#44585 - in reply to #44426) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Location: KY
Hey Rollin: Doing well here. Cannot imagine the weeping, wailing and hollering if we all had to take a test before pulling out with one of our rather huge rigs (comparatively speaking, of course!).
And yes I did find that bit interesting! Ride on. And how are the Dressage horses doing? I mentioned dressage to my horse the other day and he did not seem interested. Any suggestions?
Posted 2006-07-13 5:21 PM (#44588 - in reply to #44585) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Veteran
Posts: 190 Location: Texas
Rose,
You know we are going to get in trouble for being so "off topic."
We gotta quit meeting like this!
Don't have any advice about how to get a horse interested in Dressage . . . All but one of ours has never known anything but Dressage. That lone exception is 28 years old and in retirement from long ago when my wife showed cutters. As long has he has this good retirement deal going he won't spill the beans to any of the other horses.
Posted 2006-07-13 5:36 PM (#44589 - in reply to #44584) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Expert
Posts: 1416 Location: sc
Originally written by RollinPonies on 2006-07-13 6:01 PM
Imagine if this happened here in the US!!!!!
Roll on
i "imagine" these types of threads....."bdup are no good", "your 1/2 ton certainly can not tow or stop a horse trailer", "bigger trucks with bigger brakes can stop quicker", and "you NEED a 300hp/600tq diesel to maintain safe speeds" would be far less common. more people would actually have some training, instead of "30 years of experience", and know what they are talking about.
Posted 2006-07-13 7:46 PM (#44593 - in reply to #44572) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Member
Posts: 40 Location: Richmond, VA
If there IS no crash test data for any trailer...how do you know which company REALLY puts horse safety as #1. And if this person was a pioneer in equine safety research where did they record/store their data.
I am NOT saying only 1 company puts horse safety as #1. There are MANY good options out there.Read the book by Neva Scheve or go to the web site. She was designing for Trail-Et long before she had her own company.There is very little data indeed, which is part of what makes this so hard. But, go to the web site or read the book. There is some good research there.Ok, lets pretend that Benderup is the be all, end all of trailers.Why are there still tractor trailers? If this is the safest, most effective, and durable way to transport goods, why the need for big trucks? Why not just make a bigger bender up to go behind a pick up?After all, if our horses are perfectly safe in them, why wouldn't some wood be????
Posted 2006-07-13 8:23 PM (#44595 - in reply to #44577) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Member
Posts: 23
Originally written by Flush on 2006-07-13 2:20 PM
TwoAppys,
I am sure that YOU don't feel the trailer pushing against the car. You might say if the force is so small so what, and to that I more or less agree. We were simply trying to educate you a little on how these brakes work. If you don't care to think about it, that is up to do.
Imagine if you hooked up your trailer to your car. Now imagine if you could stick you finger up inbetween the ball of your car and the trailer coupler. Your finger would go behind the ball, but in front of the coupler. Now imagine you have someone drive your rig at 3mph while you walk along with your finger stuck up in there. Now have the person in the car slam on the brakes. I GUARANTEE YOU your finger will get pinched. That same force you feel on your finger is the force being applied to your car.
Other than you doing that, it will be very hard to PROVE to you there is force being transfered from the trailer to the car.
There is no magic telemetry that tells the trailer to stop. The force (although slight) of the trailer's inertia pushing into the car is what actuates the brake coupler. Think of the brake coupler as a brake pedal, because that is exactly what it is. Remember you have to PUSH on a brake pedal to activate it. The pedal is pushing on your foot with as much force as you are pushing on it. I think that it is the concept you are not getting.
If you actually stop and think about it, rather than just trying to argue you would realize there HAS to be some transfer of force, otherwise how are the trailer brakes being activated???
Again, I like Brenderup so don't think I am against them. If money weren't a factor it is the trailer I would buy. In this case however their marketing slogans have worked well on someone.
Posted 2006-07-13 9:57 PM (#44597 - in reply to #44593) Subject: Brenderups, Tractor Trailers & hauling wood?
Veteran
Posts: 190 Location: Texas
Darquehorse,
Wow, a terrific new direction for this tread: tractor trailer rigs and hauling wood. This thread just keeps getting better and better!!!!
What about transporting with helicopters? I bet there is a good analogy just waiting in the wings about helicopters.
Last year wifey bought a horse in Germany. (Yes, this part is REALLY true.) They shipped it to Amsterdam and then flew it to JFK and trailered it to North Texas. It looked something like this >>>
I wonder what kind of braking that plane had? Inertia or electric?
How come nobody has come up with an analogy that uses space or rail transport yet? Come on . . . somebody . . . you're bound to be thinking it . . .
We may just cancel the satellite TV at our house.
Don't need it for entertainment any more.
Roll on
PS - here is the safest way to transport a horse >>>
Posted 2006-07-13 11:16 PM (#44602 - in reply to #44426) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Location: KY
Going to show my age, I remember horses and all sorts of things being shipped via rail. And Rollin you are right about getting in trouble for being off topic, but here goes anyway. When I was a kid, my dad worked for a railroad and he would get some of the railroad crew to pick up sacks of oysters (yes, they were in the shell and in burlap bags, this was probably prior to the invention of plastic) in New Orleans and bring them to Chattanooga. Back then that was an overnight run; oysters were incredibly fresh and delicious....mmmm. getting hungry, may need to go raid the frig....
Posted 2006-07-14 1:39 PM (#44623 - in reply to #44572) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Expert
Posts: 2689
Originally written by majoras on 2006-07-13 2:08 PM
Originally written by chevalnoir on 2006-07-13 1:44 PM
Again, I ask, why was Benderup ever designed in the first place?
And again, I ask, why was ANY trailer designed in the first place....Brenderup, Equispirit, Sundowner etc, etc, etc.....
No crash data.....no arguement.
I agree that one should not push the size of their towing vehicle. But again, what factual data is there to suggest that B-ups CAN'T be pulled by the smaller vehicles. Again....I am not talking about looking at one and sizing up the trailer versus the vehicle.
B-up must have done it's homework. In lawsuit happy America, if there was a possibility for a lawsuit due to inaccurate representation of what a trailer can do...it would have happened..
Anyone know of one.
But to my comments, the same applies since I don't have data that small vehicles can pull B-ups.
So, really we (including myself) should stop arguing in the unfactual and I will try to find some solid data. If I find it from an independent source, then I will share.
By-the-was Chevalnoir,
If there IS no crash test data for any trailer...how do you know which company REALLY puts horse safety as #1. And if this person was a pioneer in equine safety research where did they record/store their data. HMMMMMMM
SO until we see data...really none of us have a real argument.
Until such data is available such things can be discussed on the basis of common sense and sound engineering principles, not that the two are mutually exclusive (-:
The global warming tangent is TEMPTING at this point.
We can deny the evidence and the science, "just wait until ALL the data is in, then we can draw conclusions" - Hmmmm
Posted 2006-07-14 4:27 PM (#44640 - in reply to #44592) Subject: RE: Brenderup trailers
Veteran
Posts: 167 Location: Monroe, WA
Originally written by iCE CRM on 2006-07-13 7:34 PM
One thing no one mentioned. They are too ugly for me.
Oh yeah..... and the frikkin "escape" doors under the horses heads (that you must crawl through at their knee level, BTW) are a real pain in the neck/back/knees and elbows. and don't forget those infernal protruding ramp hook/latches on the sides, that are primed and ready to catch on halters of exiting horses - been there, gone though that, ain't EVER (or is that "NEVAH EVAH) hauling another one.I'm outta here, it's not all THAT entertaining.
Brenderup trailers
Nevah evah any push on the car!" It was clear you don't undestand how your brakes actually work! 
Just about on a daily basis, how about that. A strange concept, I know. 
:
I doubt there's even a spring in there. Do you have a picture of it or some kind of proof? Because as far as I know, it's some sliding thing. I don't recall hearing anything about a spring. 
<--- Like this!
Therefore, if I am being pushed, it must be soooo slight that it doesn't even register. Not down hills, not coasting, never felt any push. So to that I say: SO WHAT!? You say it's pushing the car. Well, maybe on paper. But not when you're driving the darn thing! (You know what I mean!) Even the Brenderup site says, when the trailer tries to push the car, the brakes come on. TRIES to push it. The brakes activate! TRIES to PUSH. How do you explain that?
PLEASE don't say marketing ploy. I beg you!
than I do about horsetrailers brands and or horsetrailer engineering.
I think I get it now, thank you!
