Posted 2011-07-27 1:33 PM (#136140 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: missouri
No attack on a group of people was actually intended here, but, if the shoe fits, wear it. I am not a member of PETA, nor am I a fan of HSUS... I am simply saying this overpopulation epidemic needs to stop so we can all manage to live on this planet together! By the way... I'm as hillbilly rooted as any of you (I'm from North Carolina). You think I haven't seen chickens and turkeys and hogs killed? (and horses and cows, too). The biggest criticism I have where I am is that they move a crappy trailerhouse in for every worthless kid and grandkid they have, and, yes it is their right. Doesn't make it any easier to swallow. We don't need to get overheated here....and I'm no pansy that runs and hides if I happen to overload my mouth. Often I do that... consider the source and get a laugh that there is still an ole girl out here that hasn't had her head knocked of by her ole man!! (speaking of which, I have sheltered a few of them down here). Sorry if I blew your skirt up...quit wearin one, try Wrangler's, they look better on ya
Posted 2011-07-28 6:51 AM (#136152 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 182
Very good points presented... I agree that with no slaughter there is like no where for these horses to really go.. then you have people who try to rescue these horses and from what i have seen there is quite few of those people that don't know the real cost entailed to take care of these horses that should be slaughtered instead... as a result they have a bunch of them suffering because they aren't able to get enough feed, or care that they truely need... Since slaugther has been banned I have been asked many times if I would take in free horses.. there is like no place for these things to go anymore... that is why you also are starting to see people just abandoning them out someplace.. The price of horses has gone to hell.. I have found it is hard to sell for a decent price.. so many cheap ones or ones being given away out there.
Posted 2011-07-28 6:59 AM (#136153 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 182
I often feel that the people who are into animal rights ect.. they have no clue as to it really is... many times it is these people who have no experience in knowing what it takes to care for an animal and/or the reasons for why things are done the way they are...
Posted 2011-07-28 10:52 AM (#136157 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1069
Location: MI.
I have been financially fortunate when it came to the ending of 3 of my past horses, I had a choice. I can see points on both sides when looking at the bigger picture even though I prefer not to use slaughter as an end to my horse's life. Again, I have been fortunate but if it came down to rent, food on the table for my family etc., I would hate it but I would send my horse to slaughter but not now, obviously. I don't want my horse shipped to Mexico, suffering. Would opening the houses back up cradle irresponsible owners and breeders?
Posted 2011-07-28 11:17 AM (#136159 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar
I don't believe anyone that has posted in this forum likes the idea of slaughter period. If is however essential to control the over breeding that has occurred. This has also occurred in the beef market in past years but slaughter has rectified that. I personally have 8 head that will never go to slaughter period and if they get to the point of either being hurt or suffering from old age I will take care of it myself. As hard as it is to do I feel an obligation to take care of it myself and have in the past. I can also assure you that I have had vets to do it and I have done it myself and a bullet placed in the correct placement is more humane than with a vet. But with all these unwanted horses and some dangerous ones it is the only alternative, While we may not like every joe on the block breeding anything and everything this is the USA and one mans junk is another mans treasure and everyone has different ideas what is junk. There are already Laws on the books to take care of these people for neglect and shirking their responsibility's. Public enforcement would help in this area. Even in this case you get some people in these organizations that feel like a horse needs to be kept in knee deep grass or in shavings in a stall, their is no common sense. we had one turned in because they were in a muddy lot and that spring we had had a vast amount of rain otherwise were being taking care of. A horse is a horse just like any other livestock until you put the time training and trust into that individual animal.
Posted 2011-07-30 11:20 AM (#136220 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
Leave the country for awhile and you have a slaughter thread! Shoot, I hate these threads, but they may be a necessary evil or at least feed the troll.Horse slaughter is not a necessary evil - that is a euphemism for "helps people financially" - it always has a profit motive on some level.If horse slaughter can be done in a humane manner, why have you pro-slaughter people not gotten that accomplished? Years and years and years of talk about a kinder,gentler slaughter process for horses and it's all talk with no accompanying action.Horse slaughter does not decrease the amount of abuse to horses. In fact, horse slaughter/feedlot operations are EXEMPT from most cruelty laws. In our state, they are SPECIFICALLY exempted and there is documented evidence of terrible, unthinkable cruelty.The horse industry should be ashamed of its opposition to the anti-slaughter legislation that failed because of its opposition. No horse slaughter of US horses - no excuses.
Posted 2011-07-30 1:43 PM (#136226 - in reply to #136221) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
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Posts: 504
I disagree that they are the same - there are significant and meaningful differences between the slaughter of horses for luxury meat consumption in foreign countries and the slaughter of animals whose purpose in our society is to be bred for domestic meat. I would equate it more closely with paying dog owners to release their dogs (think older pets who are more trouble than they are pleasure now) for brutal slaughter to get the to be shipped to a country in which the cultural norm is eating dogs. Additionally, our slaughter houses are not designed for horses and they are brutal.
Posted 2011-07-30 3:49 PM (#136234 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
Would Porky's mother have been bred if there were no slaughter of pigs? Would there be any real number of pigs in the US if they were not allowed to be slaughtered? Are the slaughter houses of pigs designed for some other animal and inherently inappropriate for pigs. What about beef cattle? Would the species exist in America if they were not raised for food?Horses are not cattle or pigs, and the difference between them is real. And, no animal should be treated inhumanely before or during the slaughter process.
Posted 2011-07-30 4:07 PM (#136235 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar
Can you provide this forum with documentation of cruelty in the slaughter process and not he said they said. I will agree about cruealty to any animal; after there dead it doesn't really matter. As far as slaughter houses there are hundreds across the US that process several different species from one plant. The only difference in these animals is the perception that people put on them. With the drought in the entire southwest and already a shortage of cattle to start with and producers haveing to cut down on their herds and high beef prices, Horse meat could be an option.
Posted 2011-07-30 5:04 PM (#136239 - in reply to #136235) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
Read state laws on cruelty and see that feedlots and slaughter houses are exempted from legal requirements for humane treatment including being fed, sheltered, treatment for pain issues, medical care. Horses can lay untreated for days with bleeding hooves resulting from the coffin bone having rotated through the sole - no treatment, no pain medication - and because the feedlot has a legal exemption, it is not illegal. And, yes, there is evidence to these incidents all over the place if you sincerely look.
Posted 2011-07-30 5:30 PM (#136241 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
I won't waste much more time on this, but I will point out that you are confusing two different issues and consolidating arguments. This causes a waste of time and energy in trying to discuss something. Most pro-slaughter people say that horses are subject to more abuse, abandonment, and starvation if they are not slaughtered. There is absolutely no evidence that supports that and, in fact, there are laws the prevent the abuse, abandonment and starvation of horses. The only time that these laws do not apply is when they are in the slaughter process. Some on this thread, which I have only just read, say that they know people who abandon horses and turn them loose. Those people should be prosecuted. Proper disposable of a horse is that person's legal responsibility as much as providing it feed is. The issue about horses (that were bred, raised and used for pleasure and sport) being the same as cattle and pigs (animals that would not have been born at all had they not been bred for slaughter) is a different issue.If you research the humane laws for cattle and pigs, I think that you will NOT find a different legal standard of care between the cattle and pig owner and the feedlot. I'm pretty sure that's true in my state - so, again, there is a difference.
Posted 2011-07-30 7:16 PM (#136249 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Expert
Posts: 1205
Location: Arkansas
Well, we are beef producers. We know a tremendous amount about what is legal and appropiate for production, handling, preparation and sale, and processing of cattle. Just a note to say there are multiple restrictions on beef being processed, in relation to the medications that are in its system. This is referred to as a withdrawal period. Furthermore, many laws exist for the express purpose of sensible humane handling of these cattle, contrary to many "sources" one cannot even unload a broken-legged or other wise non ambulatory animal at the sale barn or meat processors. There is a great deal of confusion and hysteria by well meaning people who think they understand all this, but are really sadly misinformed. Do I have feelings for our cows, calves, and bulls? Yes, I have held sick ones in my lap, and have buried some that were good to us and had nothing to look forward to, and were pretty worthless to eat! Have I had horses put to sleep, and properly buried, yes, and to this day I can take you to their graves.
I do know that many animals are dumped to starve, pets of all types, and yes, many horses. I can take you right now to a skeleton in the national forest of a dumped horse. To prosecute these people one has to catch them first, not like the processing plant where government inspectors are present to observe this process. To kill a horse humanely, that is a question, is it not.. Proper bullet placement, captive bolt gun, those animals can be safely eaten by other animals in the food chain, whether the meat eaters are wild animals, zoo animals, or dogs eating Alpo. Do I eat meat? You betchya. Would I eat horse meat......not if I knew it, or could help it......but if it was that or starve, I guess I likely would. I will say that once the animal has died, if it can be salvaged to feed some other needy animals, that should not be an upsetting thing, this is nature. HUMANE slaughter is one possible part of that process.
The wild horse who lives and dies in the wild, well, his likelihood of an easy death is horribly remote....but it's sure natural. A humane slaughter death is truly more easy than that...
The chemically euthanized horse requires special disposal. For people with money, land, equipment or a combination of those... this can be done. For those without as much means, they must make harder choices. Should these poor people have perhaps researched more of the possible expenses, including end of life......certainly. But often they find this out at the least affordable time, and who am I to say that the modest price this horse might afford them, as it passes to humane slaughter is not needed for the most immediate needs of their family? These are hard subjects, and the answers are not entirely encapsulated in either money or emotion, but in facts, though they are hard to face, and still require common sense and hard work for the common good of man and animal. I remain appreciative of the original post of this thread being written from an especially well informed intelligent viewpoint. That is my final contribution to this thread.
Posted 2011-07-30 7:53 PM (#136252 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar
Thank you Flying H Farm for saying it better that I ever could; I do not think a lot of people realize how bad the horse industry is in. The individual I referred to earlier with the horses on the National Forest is a current Board member on a major national horse assoc and breed registry. He could not even get bids except on 4 or 5 out of 70 head of horses. The only alternative's were: Haul them to a sale and go to slaughter which he did not want to do; Turn them over to a horse rescue which they could not take any more or let them roam the national forest and bide for time hoping something would give, So don't judge him until you have walked in their shoe's. He has not abandoned these horses but due to the drought conditions he felt like it was the only alternative he had, I just think it is a waste that we have this situation with these horse's and there are children in the world dyeing of starvation that would gladly make use of this resource. But then again I guess the horse may rate better than those kids to some.
Posted 2011-07-30 8:04 PM (#136253 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
So, FlyingHFarm, you answer that other poster's question about whether there are two sets of laws for cattle - one for those bound for slaughter and one for those not bound for slaughter. It is as I thought - the same law for all cattle. That is not true for horses in my state and that is a legal fact. Many horses that are slaughtered could find homes. I myself have bid directly against the killer buyer and have a friend who had to bid a ridiculous amount to keep a horse from the killer buyer. Horse slaughter is not about the needs of the animals and their protection, it is about the profit motive of an industry as well as to the individual. There are people who, rather than feed a horse during a winter the follows a drought, send it to slaughter only to replace it the following year. There was a vet's wife with whom I spoke, and her answer about their old broodmares was "Well, we couldn't have them dying here!!!" There is a certain level of responsibility that any animal owner must have. To give many people a choice between getting $300 for killing a horse and paying for feed or even the advertisement and aggravation of selling it, is more "personal responsibility" than they can handle. Horses must be protected from that type of person. Oh they are so poor...........rarely true. It's about priorities. I'll just quote the old Popeye movie - "Wrong is wrong even if it helps you." No, it's just about priorities, not financial wherewithal. The legislation that the horse community stopped from passing allowed for people to have their own horses slaughtered for their own consumption, and it also allowed slaughter for other-than-human consumption.
Posted 2011-07-30 8:07 PM (#136254 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
Horse meat is a luxury meat, not a meat that goes to feed starving children. And no, I don't have to walk in the shoes of an animal abuser to know that it is wrong, and how do you know the various financial situations of people who are antislaughter?