Saturday morning update:

Essentially no change but she is slightly dehydrated, skin stays "pinched" for a few seconds, gums are paler than normal. She has a lot of tarter, what's up with that?
 
She did not drink anything last night, but it could be because she pooped on her water bucket - I didn't see anything in the water, but the smell of the feces on her bucket may have been enough to dissuade her from drinking.
 
I think perhaps the frequency has lessened slightly. This morning there were three puddles in stall. But when I put her out in the paddock for a stretch she did a short "deposit", because she was stressed that she couldn't be with the others in the pasture. She took a brief drink from the tub and then continued pacing the fence.

 Then I put her back in her stall and she had another deposit there, again, I think stress related because she wants to be with the others - which is a good sign. She's still lively and alert, bright-eyed. She was not interested in eating her hay or dengie, though. She did eat a small amount of Endurance (1/4 lb or so)
 

The vet said his "best guess" is bloodworms, because of the symptoms - diarrhea and sudden weight loss. I am thinking she is slightly colicky, (which is also another symptom of bloodworms) because she lays down frequently. I am not worried about it because she gets up immediately when I come into the barn and she most certainly has gut sounds (She sounds like the plumbing system in an old apartment building - gurgle gurgle gurgle.)

Vet says if I want to test for Salmonella, it will have to wait until Monday, so he can send a fresh sample out to the lab (he doesn't have the equipment to do the test himself)

The vet's assistant told me that when I start treating with the Panacur, I should see some kind of improvement before the end of the 5-day treatment.
 
This is just so hard to watch and pretty much do nothing.

 Electrolytes
He still says no to the electrolytes. He says orally administered electrolytes do nothing and contain other ingredients that can cause more gastric disturbance (i.e. sugars, sucralose).

 Probiotics
He still says no to the probiotics, for essentially the same thing. He maintains that pre-packaged probiotics (ie Fast Track) don't do anything because the bacteria is past-prime. 
 
Hydration
His only concern right now is to make sure she's hydrated. I am to call back in a couple hours to report if she's has had something to drink. If not, he will come out and see her and likely give her some IV electrolytes and fluids. If she has consumed a reasonable amount of water, he is not going to do anything.

Weight -
I am going to start taping her to monitor the weight loss. My eye says she hasn't lost any more weight since Wednesday. If you saw her you'd say, yes, she's a little underweight - but not emaciated. I am more alarmed because she was SO fat before. I will post befores and afters...

I know it sounds crazy, but I am going to trust my vet. Unless she goes more downhill. She's looks and acts healthy except for the diarrhea. I am able to monitor hydration, temperature, frequency of deposits.

Other people I have talked to have said, yes, this is an unusually long bout of diarrhea, but not unheard of.

A friend had a mare that had chronic diarrhea for MONTHS. They'd treat her, she'd respond for a while but  it would come back - ultimately they put the mare down and discovered non-cancerous growths in her intestine. She could have lived longer with the diarrhea, but the growths would have eventually caused a painful and fatal colic.

Of course I am not at this stage, but the point is, the horse, with proper management, did not die from the diarrhea. I am not planning to wait months with this, but I will at least wait to see if the Panacur does the trick.

In the meantime, I am going to swap out her hay for hay stretcher pellets or hay from another source. That shouldn't aggrevate the situation and may even help.
 
I so much appreciate everyone's thoughts and suggestions. It appears there are more people on this board who really know what they're talking about, than on other boards. THANKS!

If the vet doesn't want you to administer electrolytes, then why is that a option for him????

Another sign of dehydration can be the lack of stool. Nothing left. The skin test is a concern as that is a sign of dehydration. Keep a close watch on the eyes- if they appear to look sunk in ( compare it to your other horses) then she is in need of IV.

I am not going to second guess your vet. I am not a vet but have had lots of experience raising calves. One the biggest problems with calves is scours ( diarrhea) and the resulting dehydration and death. I have found the faster you start clear liquids( water), eletrolytes and something to thicken the mixture ( such as over the counter medications and or pepto) the better the survival rates of the calf. I usually keep a calve on this for three feedings then start back with milk ( otherwise they can starve to death since the mixture has no nutritional value) I like to keep them outside, with fresh air and exercise. keep in mind we are speaking of baby calves that weigh alot less than a horse so they also go downhill much faster. However, I am concerned since once dehydration sets in, you don't have lots of time to play with even in a grown, mature horse.

Good luck

Because he can $$$CHARGE$$$ for it.

Phooey that electrolytes do nothing in oral form.  Does he thing pedialyte is a farce, too?  I'm starting to wonder about this fella....

Good luck with your horse.

She started with loose stools about 12 days ago. Then the really bad stuff started about 6 days ago. (last wednesday).

The vet came out to see her Wednesday and again on Saturday. He does not feel she is dehydrated, which is his biggest concern. Her skin was a little less elastic, but he said her gums were good, mouth was good and moist. He did finally relent and let me put her on electrolytes and kayo-pec. I've been able to get about 40 -50 ozs in her over the course of a 24 hour period. Not sure if I should keep going.  How long until I see any results from that?

She's drinking well again. It was a little scary for a day or two as she wouldn't drink. But I think it was because I bleached out her water buckets and they smelled funny. I took her out to the big water trough and she drank from there. So I rinsed her buckets out thoroughly and she's now drinking normally.

The frequency is much less now. Two bowel movements overnight -

The vet assured me that she's stable, and he is still betting on the the encysted blood worms. Which I will be able to start treating today or tomorrow - the Panacur is arriving by UPS as no tack stores or grain stores had it around here.

I asked him if it he felt we could afford to wait the five days to wait and see if it's the bloodworms (that's how long the treatment will take) - he assured me that she's in good enough condition to endure that.  In the meantime he is going to send a fresh sample of feces out for samonella testing. He will draw blood again on Wednesday and run another panel to monitor those levels.

He said the next step would be to ship her out to a clinic. He said that the clinic would be able to put her on IV fluids if they felt it necessary, but they would probably do exploratory surgery or biopsy.  I would like to leave that to a last resort.

I will try to upload pictures of her so that you can see her condition... I have not had a lot of time, as you can well imagine.

in reply to a previous post...oral electrolytes go thru the digestive tract which is already upset and guess this vet thinks the high sugar content could upset it more.

when administered IV, it is directly into the bloodstream, therefore bypasses the GI tract, and is where it ultimately needs to be.....in the blood.

   September, 07

   November 3, 2007

Understood.  Many medications are best administered to the opposite end from my mouth, but it's the ease of use that comes into consideration....

Is Jugg full of sugars?

I certainly hope it is not salmonella, as it can make you and everything else sick!!!  Whatever it turns out to be, I would steam wash the barn down after everything is taken care of.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she's better tomorrow.

ps....you must be out in the boonies!  Can't believe you had to wait for the power pac, all the feed stores here sell them. 

Wednesday AM Update - She's still holding her own. No better, no worse. Staying hydrated.  She passed the "skin pinch" test last night, better than expected, that's a good sign.

She is slightly less anorexic now that we are doing the Kayo-pec. She will eat a couple of pounds of hay pellets over the course of the day. And last night she ate most of a flake of hay. That's a big improvement.

She's taking in good amounts of water.

Today will be day 3 of the Panacur PowerPack. I spoke to a vet at Intervet (makers of Panacur) who agreed that this is a logical place to start, given the symptoms and since so far, she's holding up, despite the diarrhea. He said not to look for results for at least a week AFTER we finish the Panacur (which will be on Friday)

I was headed to the Equine Affaire in Massachusetts with a bunch of riding buddies - supposed to head out tomorrow - that's not going to happen. Double disappointment - but I would never even consider leaving this horse is someone else's care - there's always next year.

We are in week 3 and there is nothing new to report, except that she's developed a new symptom as of this past Saturday. She's beginning to lose hair around her muzzle. It's very itchy and she's rubbing the skin raw in a few places. The skin is dry and scaly.

She is also scratching her tail. I am keeping her vulva and between her udder clean, so I do not know what that's all about. Typically, that indicates pinworms, but she just went through that 5-day wormer. I have not yet consulted the vet about this latest development, I will speak to him today.

We finished the Panacur on Friday. I will have to wait until this coming Friday or even longer, to see if that worked. She's still not eating much. I stopped the Kayo-pec as it didn't seem to be making much of a difference. She will eat her grain, so I am giving her small amounts (about 1/4 lb) 3-4 times daily. She will still pick through her hay, and occasionally nibble on hay pellets. She will graze on the lawn, but she's not very interested in what's left in the pasture....

I am fortunate that she's maintaining weight, drinking water. The diarrhea is not as frequent as in the beginning, but the consistency has not changed at all.

She still lays down frequently, but is not thrashing or rolling, she's got good belly sounds.

I just hope that it was the encysted strongyles. I am not sure what the next step is going to be or if I want to put this horse through surgery.

She needs to be evaluated at an equine hospital. Only 50% of colic cases that arrive at the Marion M. Dupont Center Equine hospital in Leesburg, VA require surgery. While she is not a colic case, I bring this up because she may not need surgery. But, she does need an evaluation. You may reach a point where she is not able to be transported. Just my 2 cents and 50 plus years of horse ownership.

Brenda

I had a glelding that came up with the squirting diarrhea...had lots of advice and suggestions from here (thanks!)  But the best advice was PROBIOTIC.  I truly believe that saved Duke's life.  He had gotten dehydrated, even though he was eating and drinking.  I think the neighbors had been giving him carrots and apples off the tree and this caused the problem.  Duke lost so much wieght, that I was embarassed to take him anywhere, but today he is healthy - although just to be on the safe side, no treats.  \ I am going to side with those here and say GET ANOTHER OPINION!  This has gone on too long......

Good luck and I pray for your horse's recovery.

Morgan

Ok, I am giving it until Saturday and if things are not significantly improved, I am going to bring her to an equine clinic. Here are my reasons for waiting until then: She's holding her own.

 She is eating more hay than ever now. That's a huge improvement.

She is drinking about 10 gallons of water per day.

She is still alert, mobile, and very interested in what's going around her.

 I have seen a slight change in her stools. On a scale of 0 to 10 with 0 being the worst day of watery, explosive diarrhea and 10 being "perfect poop" - I rate her at a "1" - there is some substance now. It still is plopping like very wet cow manure, but it's not propelling out of her like a fire hose....

I spoke with another vet at Intervet who concurred with the other Intervet vet and with my own vet: if the worms were the problem, it could take at least a week to see an improvement in her stool. It takes that long and sometimes longer for her digestive system to get back to normal.

The hair loss mystery is solved in that we have determined it is not falling out on its own. She's rubbing it off. My daughter and I were tending to her the other night and my daughter saw her rub the inside of her lip across the stall door, as if itching it. I opened her mouth and saw that her lips and gums are red and irritated, bilaterally, top & bottom. Jeez louise, I thought - ulcers. My vet came and looked at her again. He concluded that she's rubbing the hair off her face because she's itching. She's also rubbing her tail as with pinworms, but that can be because she's tested negative for parasites. (remember, the encysted stronglyes do not show up on a fecal test). And her gums and lips are itchy as well, but being chafed worse by her rubbing them on the stall door.

 He was not sure what was causing the reaction so he went back to the office to research. Was it the Panacur, the KayoPec, the oral electrolytes? Something else?

In the meantime I called Intervet and talked to a vet there. She told me that has not been a reported case of the Panacur causing an allergic reaction, but that the die off of millions of larvae could definitely cause a reaction due to the toxins they are emmitting. My own vet called me later and came up with the same theory.

He has crossed a number of things off the list because she "doesn't fit the profile." Salmonella - no; Giardia? no; Blister beetle poisoning? no; He thinks very strongly that she's reacting to the die off of the larvae.

So, with both vets saying the same thing AND both saying that if she's not better by this weekend, we need to re-think the whole thing, I am willing to give it until Saturday.

In the meantime, if she is suffering from some "unknown" disease, I have to be realistic about how much I can afford to have this horse diagnosed and treated. Let's face it: it could be in the thousands - perhaps 10's of thousands.... I have to be honest with myself and my daughter. I don't have that kind of money. How much debt to I put myself in for a backyard pony. It's tough to admit this and have to make a monetary decision, but common sense does have to prevail.

So, saturday is the day of decision...

My mare is still holding on. We have determined that it is NOT encysted bloodworms as more than 10 days after the last dose of Panacur, she is not improving.

On Friday night, Nov.16 I really thought I was going to lose her. The next morning I packed her up and drove 3.5 hours to another clinic. They gave her 2 bags of electrolytes, drew more blood, did another rectal exam, another fecal exam. Administered probiotics, B-Vitamins and started Naxcel (antibiotic).

Four hours later, they sent us home, with more antibiotic and probiotic, and instructions to get her to eat. Easier said than done. We tried soaked beet pulp with molasses, apples, carrots, dengie, new hay, - nothing.

Yesterday Nov. 19 was another UP and Down day. The 2nd vet said put her out with the herd, she's not contagious, or everyone would be sick by now. So out she went. She follows the other 3 around the pasture, when they settle on a place to graze, she lays down. When they move, she gets up and moves with them, then lays back down again.

Last night, I offered her Quiessence, a magnesium chromium supplement I give the cresty, founder-prone mini. She LOVED it. I contacted the makers and they said I could give her up to 6 ozs daily for a week with no bad side effects. Some friends brought her a special mash last night too, with alfalfa pellets, senior feed and something else. She did eat a few nibbles of that as well.  I will continue to  give her probiotics, if I can get them into her (if not I will be giving some more yogurt with the turkey baster. More electrolytes.

If the antibiotic is working, it should be evident by today. If not, he's going to try steroids as anti-immflamatory. The 2nd vet's in-house blood panel revealed nothing. Two vials were sent to Cornell for analysis, I will have the results Wednesday.

The vet also thinks that the facial and mouth allergy was caused by the Panacur, but that's just his opinion. I wouldn't go slamming the stuff yet. More later.

Boy, Barstow, this is a tough one. I'm wondering, do horses get colitis?  i have a friend who developed it and her symptons were diarhea and an occasional mild fever.  She had to get a certain antibiotic to get rid of it...some antibiotics actually make it worse. If the antibiotics your mare is on don't help she may need to try a different one.

As far as the Panacur causing the allergy, the good it can do will far outweigh any risk, so hopefully people won't slam it for that.

As always you are in my thoughts and prayers.