Posted 2008-08-11 11:29 AM (#89473 - in reply to #89204) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain...
How many blowouts have you had? The reason I am asking is if you have had numerous on the same location, or same axle, it could be an axle issue. If they have been spread around on the trailer, I would upgrade the tires and go from there. Heavier axles are going to create some structural issues, ie: frame that the axles are mounted on will have to change. On torsion axles when you get larger, your mounting brackets get closer together, meaning your frame will have to get narrower, putting more fender inside your trailer. Upgrade the tires & axles, and if that stops your problems, good. If it doesn't, then you know you are going to have to change your axles which will be some considerable $$$$. Just my opinion, but that is where I would start. Good luck!
Posted 2008-08-11 11:38 AM (#89475 - in reply to #89473) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Regular
Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
So far just 1 blow out, but when I went to get the tire replaced the tire dealer pointed out the front tire on the same side and told me that the tire was seperating or had a broken belt inside the tire and need to get it off before I had another blow out. That is when they pointed out that the wheels was not rated for the psi of the tires. wheels rated for 80psi and tires rated for 94psi at 3500 lbs. SO if I run the tires at 80psi to match the wheels it looks like I have flats and could ruin a tire, if I run the tire at the rated weight of 94 psi now I have a chance to ruin a wheel and tire.
Posted 2008-08-11 11:52 AM (#89476 - in reply to #89204) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain...
Sounds like you are definitely have tire issues. I would upgrade the tires and wheels and go from there. Didn't I read somewhere that the tires are Winland poly belt? Get rid of them...you are going to sooner or later one at a time...and upgrade...
Posted 2008-08-11 1:43 PM (#89488 - in reply to #89476) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Regular
Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
YES, Winland tires. I got pictures of them last night and now I found out that the tire show to be a 14PR but on the other side that shows the weight rating it shows a load range F! That is a 12 ply!
Posted 2008-08-13 10:25 AM (#89640 - in reply to #89636) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Regular
Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
What do you mean "your whole day will be spoiled (-:"?
After I thought about this for a little bit, I realize what you mean by spoil my whole day! Not really just 1 day either, it is everyday I need to use it. one because I can only actually haul 2 maybe 3 horses at eh most to stay within my weight limit and two, because I bought a 4 horse trailer for that reason, to haul 4 horse not to haul 3 hosrse and have to take another truck and trailer for the last one or even have to have someone pick up the last horse for me.
Not good at all when you spend that much money and expect it to be what you was told and have been told or researched about, then to find out that it is not at all!
Talk about a spoiled day!
Posted 2008-08-13 11:48 AM (#89649 - in reply to #89640) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
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Posts: 2689
Originally written by c.will_09 on 2008-08-13 10:25 AM
What do you mean "your whole day will be spoiled (-:"?
After I thought about this for a little bit, I realize what you mean by spoil my whole day! Not really just 1 day either, it is everyday I need to use it. one because I can only actually haul 2 maybe 3 horses at eh most to stay within my weight limit and two, because I bought a 4 horse trailer for that reason, to haul 4 horse not to haul 3 hosrse and have to take another truck and trailer for the last one or even have to have someone pick up the last horse for me.
Not good at all when you spend that much money and expect it to be what you was told and have been told or researched about, then to find out that it is not at all!
Talk about a spoiled day!
I guess the "take away" is to read the VIN tag before you buy.
Tires, rims and axle capacities should add up to more than the vehicle manufacturer's rated GVW. Did you get a 4 horse trailer that has a GVW less than it's curb weight plus 4 horses (nominal 1,000 lbs each) ?
Posted 2008-08-13 12:31 PM (#89654 - in reply to #89649) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Regular
Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
When I bought the trailer I was told the empty dry weight was 10,650lbs and the gross weight on the sticker shows 18,667lbs so that sould leave me just over 8000lbs. for horses, tack and supplies which should be good. But after we started having tire/wheel problems I had the trailer scaled at a CAT scale and that is when we found out the empty dry weight was actually 12,740lbs. so there is the problem, that cuts us back to under 6000lbs for 4 horses, tack and supplies. And using RANCH HORSES that avg around 1250lbs each that menas when I load 4 horses I am at 5000lbs and only have 1000lbs at the most for tack and supplies (water, feed, hay) That really dont sound bad if I am just going to the vet or have no need to haul tack or supplies with me. BUt that leads us back to the other problem, when loaded with 2 large horses and 2 small horses and all tanks full but the waste tanks I am over my axle weight by almost 700lbs. Then I can load all 4 of my large horses and I am almost 1100lbs. over my axle weight.
Posted 2008-08-14 4:46 PM (#89729 - in reply to #89204) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Regular
Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
Is there any type of federal regulation for trailer safety as far as tire, wheels, axles not being rated for the vehicle they are being used on? (ie:guidelines one must follow in the during any part of the building process) I found something called the RVIA, but I don't know if they are just for the LQ part of the trailer or for the entire structure.
Posted 2008-08-14 4:53 PM (#89730 - in reply to #89729) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
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Posts: 2689
Originally written by c.will_09 on 2008-08-14 4:46 PM
Is there any type of federal regulation for trailer safety as far as tire, wheels, axles not being rated for the vehicle they are being used on? (ie:guidelines one must follow in the during any part of the building process) I found something called the RVIA, but I don't know if they are just for the LQ part of the trailer or for the entire structure.
c.will
There is a manufacturer's association, I forgot the acronym.
Fed regs ?, sure.
Search GVW and I'm sure you'll come across them.
This might be a good place to start, happy reading;
Posted 2008-08-15 12:08 PM (#89766 - in reply to #89204) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
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Posts: 22
Location: 03303
The design of your trailer is perfectly legal. Your tag weight capacity is 18,667 pounds. You can put 14,000 pounds on your axles (I'm assuming your tires and wheels are rated at 3,500 pounds or better) and 4,667 pounds on the pin. The pin weight is 21.4% of the trailer's total weight. In theory, there is nothing wrong with that.
The problem is when reality sets in. Unless you're weight placement is perfect, if you're at your maximum, you're going to go over your limits.
The problem is there is no safety margin with this type of design. Conservative engineers design the pin and axles at more than the capacity weight.
Posted 2008-08-15 4:33 PM (#89784 - in reply to #89766) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Regular
Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
Originally written by equinetransport on 2008-08-15 12:08 PM You can put 14,000 pounds on your axles (I'm assuming your tires and wheels are rated at 3,500 pounds or better) and 4,667 pounds on the pin. The pin weight is 21.4% of the trailer's total weight. In theory, there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is when reality sets in. Unless you're weight placement is perfect, if you're at your maximum, you're going to go over your limits. The problem is there is no safety margin with this type of design. Conservative engineers design the pin and axles at more than the capacity weight. Best of luck, Jim Clark-Dawe
You are right with 2 7-k lbs axles I can haul 14-klbs on the axles. But the problem is, we was told (and the website states)when we bought the trailer that the empty weight is 10,650lbs. That would be great and we would not having the prboelms we are if that was the CORRECT weight. The actual empty dry weight of my trailer is 12,740lbs and that is what is messing up everything! But your other figures are correct. When I am loaded as I stated earlier with an axles weight of 14,660 and a gross weight of 18,800 I have 4140lbs on the pin (22%) which is not bad. Yes the tires are rated at 3500lbs @ 94psi and the wheels are rated at 3750lbs @ 80psi and this is where one of the problem lies. That is why no tire dealer around here will install new tires for me. The other problem is if the engineers are being "conservative" and the pin and axle weight was to be more than the actual capacity, why did this trailer not have 8-klbs axles at least? Unless the manurfacture is figuring the empty weight before they install the LQ but when you look at the paper work and the website under LQ model trailers that is where they have stated the weights of the each model trailer they offer. So to have a "safety margin" this should have had 8-klbs axles or even larger.
Posted 2008-08-15 4:55 PM (#89786 - in reply to #89782) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Regular
Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
Yes, here is what I copied from the othe post:
Subject : RE: HELP tires / wheels 911! Posted : 2008-08-03 2:05 PM Post #88901 - In reply to #88899
I just looked at the link you posted and I think that is the tires this tire dealer in wanting to install, but what about the wheels? The info on the wheel shows a rating of 3750 lbs. but thepsi is only80#.
This is the problem I guess, the dealer is telling me that if I install these tires and put a 100 or 110 psi in them that there is a chance the wheel would come apart!
Subject : RE: HELP tires / wheels 911! Posted : 2008-08-03 2:52 PM Post #88907 - In reply to #88905
Yes, I have taken this trailer over the CAT scales and I had the tire dealer check it also and the gross weight is right at 19-k lbs. and the actual axle weight the time I checked it with 2 of my large horses and 2 of my avg. horses was 14,660lbs, but this was loaded with everything but the black and grey water tanks full. The empty or (dry) gross weight is 12,740lbs.
I haul with a 07 Dodge cab -n chassis quad cab with CM hauler bed, 6.7 diesel, auto, factory exhaust brake (HELPS A TON with this load) and you are right we hit the scale loaded right at 25-k lbs loaded
I think this is what you are asking for!
As for as covering the LQ and stuff, it should , but it don't unless I only haul 3 horses. I bought a 4 horse trailer to be able to haul 4 horses in and assuming the manurfacture's number was correct. I was told to get smaller horses, carry less cargo and was even told that I should have know what this trailer weighed when I bought it. (well I thought I did know after weeks of internet research about this trailer)
Posted 2008-08-16 6:51 PM (#89836 - in reply to #89787) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
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Posts: 2689
Here's a write up of trailer manufacturer's obligation to keep tire records.
The manufacturer SHOULD be able to verify that the tires and rims delivered on the trailer were not switched after it left the factory. http://www.natm.com/ComplianceTechnical/TireWheelRimPresentation/de...
Having just noticed your comments that the trailer's sales literature states a significantly different curb weight from actual - I think you have a case that you have been short changed on payload capacity.
GET 'EM !
Edit;
Just a thought;
Re-check the web site where it says 10,650 lbs empty.
Is that for a trailer with an unfinished camper section ?
{Is 2090 lbs "Likely" to be the result of fitting out a whatever size camper section ?}
Posted 2008-08-16 11:31 PM (#89841 - in reply to #89836) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Regular
Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
I have re checked it, my better half has re checked it and then we checked it again and copied it for our records. And it states 10,650lbs. for this model trailer and I assume this the weight when it leaves the factory.
But I was told that the manurfacture checked a few of these "before" going into production, so that is telling me that the weight posted could very well be before the LQ package was installed. We also checked the website and found no option's for tire/wheel or axle upgrades on LQ model trailers. Now they are trying to tell me that it is my fault that the trailer does not have the correct equipment on it and I should have know about the weight when I ordered the trailer. YES, I ordered this trailer from an authorized dealer who was in contact with the manufacture during the entire process. So, my thinking is since I ordered it from a authorized dealer who was in contact with the manufacture during every step of the ordering process, the manufacture should have known if there was going to be a problem with the equipment on this size trailer. When I ordered it, we added some of the options that are available on this model.
Posted 2008-08-17 1:00 AM (#89845 - in reply to #89636) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 544 Location: Claxton, Ga.
Originally written by Reg on 2008-08-13 1:41 PM
You can mess with phatter tires, wider rims and heftier axles all you want, but that won't change the vehicle's weight rating on the VIN tag. Hint/clue if you are weighed over what is shown on the VIN tag your whole day will be spoiled (-:
FYI, DOT goes by axle weight ratings and tire load capacity. The manufaturer GVWR number is a recommended number. Not an inforced number. Folks have been taken to court over this issue due to an accident and won the case because the GVW is a recommended number. The rules that I live by state to not go over the lower of the two, axle weight rating or tire weight rating. We can argue about this all day long but if you do some research you can form your own opinion. This is mine. A guy on DTR was sued for this issue and won the case. He was over his GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) and had an accident when a person pulled out in front of him. Needless to say, they were killed and everyone was sueing. He won the case. Enough said.
Posted 2008-08-17 5:09 AM (#89847 - in reply to #89845) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
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Posts: 2689
Originally written by Spooler on 2008-08-17 1:00 AM
Originally written by Reg on 2008-08-13 1:41 PM
You can mess with phatter tires, wider rims and heftier axles all you want, but that won't change the vehicle's weight rating on the VIN tag. Hint/clue if you are weighed over what is shown on the VIN tag your whole day will be spoiled (-:
FYI, DOT goes by axle weight ratings and tire load capacity. The manufaturer GVWR number is a recommended number. Not an inforced number. Folks have been taken to court over this issue due to an accident and won the case because the GVW is a recommended number. The rules that I live by state to not go over the lower of the two, axle weight rating or tire weight rating. We can argue about this all day long but if you do some research you can form your own opinion. This is mine. A guy on DTR was sued for this issue and won the case. He was over his GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) and had an accident when a person pulled out in front of him. Needless to say, they were killed and everyone was sueing. He won the case. Enough said.
I have no doubt that you could "beat it" with a sufficiently good and presumably expensive lawyer. Almost anything can be beat, DUI and speeding being common.
It will still get you at least a ticket in CT or PA, that is enough to spoil your day and probably a month or two, even if you get off relatively lightly.
Posted 2008-08-17 7:38 AM (#89849 - in reply to #89204) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Member
Posts: 22
Location: 03303
I've read your thread on your tires. Basic short version is tires are being used with excessive weight, sidewalls of tire flex excessively, tires go "BOOM!"
Let's go back to the trailer manufacturer. It designs a trailer based on cost/benefits. This determines your price point. Also, depending on the manufacturer, its priority might be horse trailers or LQ. If the priority is LQ, the manufacturer is well aware that many travel trailers don't travel very much. Even a lot of horse trailers don't travel very far.
As a result, a manufacturer can put the minimal requirements on a trailer, working on the assumption that the trailer won't be traveling far enough for those minimal requirements to show up as a problem. Advantage is that the manufacturer can offer a cheaper product.
Your trailer meets the minimal requirements to safely get down the road, but you're using it at a heavier weight and more frequently than the manufacturer hoped for.
Empty weight of a trailer is just that. Empty. No cargo and LQ is cargo. Unfortunately, the manufacturers are not dealing with the situation. This goes back to many LQ trailers being designed for two Shetland ponies and two inflatable horses.
As I said, if I could fit them, I'd go with 8 or 9k axles and the appropriate tires and wheels. This would give a safety margin. Just increasing the tires and wheels leaves the potential of busted or bent axles. Blowing a tire is a lot better.
Alternatives would include a diet, or maybe just slowing down. On the bright side, replacing the axles doesn't produce just junk, but some stuff you can resell.
I do feel sorry for you. A lot of the stuff here is known, but it just isn't being told.
Posted 2008-08-17 9:14 PM (#89870 - in reply to #89849) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
Regular
Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
So they offer and build a 4 horse trailer with LQ to haul 4 hosres in, it is upto the customer to make sure it has the right equipment to handle the weight? I understand that a few manufactures will take the cheap way out, but this goes back to the tires and wheels casuing the main problem. They was not matched for the trailer to begain with. I just check the small gooseneck that we bought a couple of weeks ago 07 S&H 3 horse with a 2' SW and it has an empty weight of 4400lbs with 2 5200lbs axles, 2 10ply tires rated at 3640lbs at 80psi and steel wheel rated at 3750lbs at 80psi. It is hard to believe that a new $7000.00 trailer has the right equipment to haul horses safely and a $60-k LQ trailer does not!
Posted 2008-08-17 9:25 PM (#89872 - in reply to #89870) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
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Posts: 2689
I think it might be an either/or choice.
Empty trailer 10,xxx lbs as a shell.
Your choice on how you fill it up - to the limit of axles, rims, tires, GVW, whatever comes first.
Whatever weight goes in as camper section fittings gets subtracted from what can go in as horse flesh - or the other way around, according to priorities.
The choice seems to be between carrying a fitted out camper, or horses, or some of each. Just can't have ALL of each.
e.g. If the camper section has to have a lot of tile and marble think more towards a couple of small ponies. If you MUST haul drafts use motels or B&Bs
Posted 2008-08-17 9:38 PM (#89873 - in reply to #89872) Subject: RE: Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
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Posts: 73 Location: Decatur, Texas
I have checked their websit many times and talked to my dealer, other dealers, and flyers and the weight they are stating is the full LQ ready to hit the road.
Running trailer at MAX weight cap.
