Posted 2008-10-16 12:47 PM (#93153 - in reply to #93137) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Regular
Posts: 92
Originally written by Towfoo on 2008-10-16 3:56 AM
Originally written by FrancaV on 2008-10-15 11:51 PM
Just to be completely accurate ... MoveOn.org is not part of the Obama campaign. MoveOn.org has been around for a long time - ten years, I believe - long before most people had ever heard of Obama.
This statement's a bit of a red herring. Sure, MoveOn.org is a 501c and not legally affiliated with the Obama campaign, but they ARE campaigning for Obama.
Not a red herring at all. You simply didn't read the whole thing. As quoted, not all MoveOn.org entities are 501(c) - that wasn't even the point. The point is they are not supported by, or endorsed by any candidate. They are not "the Obama campaign" as stated by hosspuller. For a more extreme example, it's pretty obvious where the NRA is going to put its money and its mouth in any election, but they are not part of a particular candidate's campaign either; they are their own entity with their own agenda.
Posted 2008-10-16 4:44 PM (#93157 - in reply to #92467) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Location: KY
Hawaii is a member state of the United States of America. So, being born in Hawaii makes a person a U.S. citizen, from birth on regardless of where one lives thereafter.
Living in an area where another religion is more prevalent does not ipso facto make one a member of that religion.
Now to my joke of the day:
What do you call a person who can speak only one language?
Posted 2008-10-16 4:52 PM (#93158 - in reply to #92467) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Location: KY
Since this is an extremely active group of folks, I would like to find out your opinions on the following:
I have been asked to explore the possibility of filing a lawsuit, requesting class status for the plaintiff(s), asking the US/USDA to allow horse slaughter (for human and/or animal consumption) to begin. The basis for the suit would be that the US/USDA (and State of Illinois) took/diminished the value of the plaintiff(s) property (horses) without compensation by the closure of the slaughter plants, and thus impeded interstate and international commerce.
Posted 2008-10-16 5:06 PM (#93161 - in reply to #93153) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Veteran
Posts: 296 Location: Tennessee
Originally written by FrancaV on 2008-10-16 12:47 PM
Not a red herring at all. You simply didn't read the whole thing. As quoted, not all MoveOn.org entities are 501(c) - that wasn't even the point. The point is they are not supported by, or endorsed by any candidate. They are not "the Obama campaign" as stated by hosspuller. For a more extreme example, it's pretty obvious where the NRA is going to put its money and its mouth in any election, but they are not part of a particular candidate's campaign either; they are their own entity with their own agenda.
Weak analogy. The NRA supports 2nd amendment rights. They endorse candidates of all political parties (e.g., Phil Bredesen here in TN), so long as that person is a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment. MoveOn.org supports only left of center democrats, and the farther left the better. But I got your point, which is that they are a separate legal entity from the Obama campaign. In real-world practice, not so much.
Posted 2008-10-16 7:22 PM (#93164 - in reply to #93158) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Expert
Posts: 2957 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by rose on 2008-10-16 2:52 AM
Since this is an extremely active group of folks, I would like to find out your opinions on the following:
I have been asked to explore the possibility of filing a lawsuit, requesting class status for the plaintiff(s), asking the US/USDA to allow horse slaughter (for human and/or animal consumption) to begin. The basis for the suit would be that the US/USDA (and State of Illinois) took/diminished the value of the plaintiff(s) property (horses) without compensation by the closure of the slaughter plants, and thus impeded interstate and international commerce.
Just my opinion... not legal opinion
I would join this class. I never understood the rational to banning horse slaughter. The law treats horses as livestock. If my horse injures someone or their property I'm responsible. Why then, should my determination of my property be diminished? Is any other property so restricted? (without harm to the public...ie Hazwaste)
Posted 2008-10-16 7:32 PM (#93165 - in reply to #93153) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Expert
Posts: 2957 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by FrancaV on 2008-10-16 1:13 AM
Originally written by Towfoo on 2008-10-16 3:56 AM Originally written by FrancaV on 2008-10-15 11:51 PM
Just to be completely accurate ... MoveOn.org is not part of the Obama campaign. MoveOn.org has been around for a long time - ten years, I believe - long before most people had ever heard of Obama.
This statement's a bit of a red herring. Sure, MoveOn.org is a 501c and not legally affiliated with the Obama campaign, but they ARE campaigning for Obama.
Not a red herring at all. You simply didn't read the whole thing. As quoted, not all MoveOn.org entities are 501(c) - that wasn't even the point. The point is they are not supported by, or endorsed by any candidate. They are not "the Obama campaign" as stated by hosspuller. For a more extreme example, it's pretty obvious where the NRA is going to put its money and its mouth in any election, but they are not part of a particular candidate's campaign either; they are their own entity with their own agenda.
FrancaV ... I would dispute the lack of connection to the Obama campaign. I originally joined the Obama web site. Therefore Obama shared my contact with moveon.org.
I blame McCain for the abominable McCain-Feingold law. Instead of regulating money, (and causing sham 501 organizations) just make it completely transparent where its coming from. Down to the dollar... who, where, how & totals. There is an old saying... wise when applied to politics... "Follow the Money"
Posted 2008-10-16 7:41 PM (#93166 - in reply to #93161) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Regular
Posts: 92
Originally written by Towfoo on 2008-10-16 3:06 PM
Weak analogy. The NRA supports 2nd amendment rights. They endorse candidates of all political parties (e.g., Phil Bredesen here in TN), so long as that person is a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment. MoveOn.org supports only left of center democrats, and the farther left the better. But I got your point, which is that they are a separate legal entity from the Obama campaign. In real-world practice, not so much.
In terms of my point, it was a perfectly good analogy.
Your description of MoveOn.org is still not accurate ... MoveOn.org supports moderate and progressive candidates. The definitions I found of "progressive" in political usage show it to mean something broader than either "conservative" or "liberal", and indicate a leaning of center-left, rather than far-left.
Interestingly enough, some on-the-fence Republicans I heard interviewed following the last debate, after hearing Obama speak, found him to be "less liberal" (their words, not mine) than they had been led to believe.
Posted 2008-10-16 11:00 PM (#93179 - in reply to #92467) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Elite Veteran
Posts: 714 Location: Minnesota
Rose-Hosspuller almost took the words out of my mouth. I would join that suit even though I have misgivings about most class action suits. It seems that the only real winners are the attorneys.
Posted 2008-10-17 3:55 AM (#93184 - in reply to #93166) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Veteran
Posts: 296 Location: Tennessee
Originally written by FrancaV on 2008-10-16 7:41 PM
Your description of MoveOn.org is still not accurate ... MoveOn.org supports moderate and progressive candidates. The definitions I found of "progressive" in political usage show it to mean something broader than either "conservative" or "liberal", and indicate a leaning of center-left, rather than far-left.
Interestingly enough, some on-the-fence Republicans I heard interviewed following the last debate, after hearing Obama speak, found him to be "less liberal" (their words, not mine) than they had been led to believe.
MoveOn.org frequently works in concert with the likes of ANSWER, Democratic Socialists of America, and the Communist Party USA. Not very "moderate" if you ask me.
All candidates tilt toward the center in the general election. Obama would have been stupid not to do the same, and he's definitely not stupid. I'm still not sure what his true stripes are, but my gut tells me he's pretty far left of center by any reasonable definition of "center." Just look at his voting record in congress (ranked "most liberal senator" in '07 by National Journal), not to mention his affiliations with ACORN, Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, the Chicago New Party, the Democratic Socialists of America, et al. Obama has openly expressed a certain comfort level with the agendas of all these folks.
Anyway, I guess it all boils down to what you call "the center" and "progressive." Frankly, I hope I'm wrong and you're right, because it looks like the guy's gonna win.
Posted 2008-10-17 11:19 AM (#93196 - in reply to #92467) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Expert
Posts: 1877 Location: NY
this is a good debate thank you to all for the input . what I would like to see it's all people running for office have to go on t.v. and be hooked to a lie detector and ask question for real people. do politicians think that Americans can handle the true?
Posted 2008-10-17 11:42 AM (#93199 - in reply to #93174) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Expert
Posts: 2957 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by rose on 2008-10-16 8:02 AM
Hosspuller: Thanks for your input. Think I will post the question over on the horse board.
Rose ... There's another question in the same vein. Who decided the ban on ordinary light bulbs was good for me? I pay the electric bill not the gov't.
The CFL take a lot more time to reach full brightness. I have several light bulbs on motion detectors INSIDE my barn & sheds. Open the door and there's no fumbling for the switch... the light comes on. As long as I'm in range the light is on. Leave and the light automatically shuts off. This kind of service is the worst for a CFL.
The more gov't intrusion in your life, the worst off you'll be.
Posted 2008-10-18 12:36 AM (#93209 - in reply to #93184) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Regular
Posts: 92
Originally written by Towfoo on 2008-10-17 1:55 AM
Just look at his voting record in congress (ranked "most liberal senator" in '07 by National Journal), not to mention his affiliations with ACORN, Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, the Chicago New Party, the Democratic Socialists of America, et al. Obama has openly expressed a certain comfort level with the agendas of all these folks.
For real information on all of the above you can go to http://www.snopes.com and http://www.factcheck.org. There is far too much info to quote here, but I'll address the first item in your list. Snopes.com does not allow reproduction of its articles without permission but here is a link to just one of mulitple articles that clarify the "most liberal" claim:
Many points are addressed in the article but the one in question is easy to find - it's the last one on the page. There were reference links included which I have copied directly from those sites:
Anyway, I guess it all boils down to what you call "the center" and "progressive." Frankly, I hope I'm wrong and you're right, because it looks like the guy's gonna win.
Posted 2008-10-18 4:52 PM (#93220 - in reply to #93196) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Veteran
Posts: 296 Location: Tennessee
Originally written by loveduffy on 2008-10-17 11:19 AM
this is a good debate thank you to all for the input . what I would like to see it's all people running for office have to go on t.v. and be hooked to a lie detector and ask question for real people. do politicians think that Americans can handle the true?
LOL, great idea, although I hear it's pretty easy to tell even without a lie detector. If you watch their faces and notice their lips moving, there's a high probability they are lying.
Retento, I voted on Thursday. Was about 15th in line and it took me about 10 minutes total, but when I came out the line had about 150 people. Guess I got lucky and hit it at the right time.
Both of those are good sites, but neither has a monopoly on factual information (fortunately). On rare occasions, both have also been wrong. Besides, it's a done deal for me.
Posted 2008-10-19 5:20 PM (#93244 - in reply to #93199) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Expert
Posts: 2828 Location: Southern New Mexico
Originally written by hosspuller on 2008-10-17 11:42 PM
Rose ... There's another question in the same vein. Who decided the ban on ordinary light bulbs was good for me? I pay the electric bill not the gov't.
The CFL take a lot more time to reach full brightness. I have several light bulbs on motion detectors INSIDE my barn & sheds. Open the door and there's no fumbling for the switch... the light comes on. As long as I'm in range the light is on. Leave and the light automatically shuts off. This kind of service is the worst for a CFL.
The more gov't intrusion in your life, the worst off you'll be.
They are also toxic. They have mucury in them. If you break one in a carpet your not suopposed to vaccume it up and when they break or burn out your not supposed to send them to a landfill.
I've been looking at the led lights but man are they expensive!!!
Posted 2008-10-19 6:25 PM (#93245 - in reply to #92467) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 522 Location: Tucumcari NM
another big headache is going to be what to do with all the out-dated televisions when they need to be replaced. I saw an estimate somewhere of 100 million sets that will wind up in the landfills.
Posted 2008-10-20 4:37 AM (#93258 - in reply to #93245) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Expert
Posts: 3802 Location: Rocky Mount N.C.
Originally written by Marla on 2008-10-19 7:25 PM
another big headache is going to be what to do with all the out-dated televisions when they need to be replaced. I saw an estimate somewhere of 100 million sets that will wind up in the landfills.
Marla
Most of them around here end up on the shoulder of the road or on someones farm path..... Folks from town haul their crap and unwanted dogs and cats out here in the country and just throw it/them out. With the slaughter houses shut down, they'll soon be turning the unwanted horses loose.
Posted 2008-10-20 3:11 PM (#93290 - in reply to #92467) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 522 Location: Tucumcari NM
That is exactly what happened around here when the ostrich and emu farms went bust. We had ostriches and emus running wild all over the range. Pretty neat, actually. I would rather see them turned loose to fend for themselves than to see them penned up and starved to death. I am sure turning them loose would cause some problems, but what else is there?
Posted 2008-10-22 8:48 PM (#93433 - in reply to #92467) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 544 Location: Claxton, Ga.
The facts of the matter is Obama has not provided his birth certificate when asked. Nothing, notta, zilch. So, until he does he is not a natural born US Citizen. End of Story.
Posted 2008-10-22 9:37 PM (#93437 - in reply to #93433) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Expert
Posts: 2957 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by Spooler on 2008-10-22 6:48 AM
The facts of the matter is Obama has not provided his birth certificate when asked. Nothing, notta, zilch. So, until he does he is not a natural born US Citizen. End of Story.
Spooler ... This is a non-issue for me. BHO is more secretive than McCain. But what has been released appears to confirm he is a natural born citizen as legally defined. As is McCain. (Born of US service personnel in Panama)
Obama has already proven to be a liar. He said he would accept federal funding for the general election if his opponent would. McCain did, Obama didn't.
Posted 2008-10-23 12:10 AM (#93450 - in reply to #93433) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Regular
Posts: 92
Originally written by Spooler on 2008-10-22 6:48 PM
The facts of the matter is Obama has not provided his birth certificate when asked. Nothing, notta, zilch. So, until he does he is not a natural born US Citizen. End of Story.
That happens to be a lie, and proven as such some considerable time ago, though the lie continues to circulate. As do so many others.
Posted 2008-10-23 12:46 AM (#93452 - in reply to #93437) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Regular
Posts: 92
Originally written by hosspuller on 2008-10-22 7:37 PM
... But what has been released appears to confirm he is a natural born citizen as legally defined. As is McCain. (Born of US service personnel in Panama)
Thank you for posting that link. I'm getting really tired of doing other peoples' homework for them.
Obama has already proven to be a liar. He said he would accept federal funding for the general election if his opponent would. McCain did, Obama didn't.
Obama's word is zilch...
They are plenty of lies to go around. If you deem Obama to be a liar you must do the same for McCain. And Ms. Palin. In fact, my informal tally shows more lies on the McCain campaign side. Which of the vast numbers of lies on either side are more serious I leave to each person to decide on his own.
Posted 2008-10-23 9:12 AM (#93466 - in reply to #93452) Subject: RE: Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
Expert
Posts: 5870 Location: western PA
They are plenty of lies to go around. If you deem Obama to be a liar you must do the same for McCain. And Ms. Palin. In fact, my informal tally shows more lies on the McCain campaign side. Which of the vast numbers of lies on either side are more serious I leave to each person to decide on his own.
Franca,
Thank you for your posting of unbiased and truthful discussions. It is a welcome respite from the normal histrionics, rhetoric and misinformation that normally prevails.
Whatta Mess ! and how did we get in this basket?
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