Posted 2008-06-19 9:42 AM (#85973 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 5870 Location: western PA
The oil companies presently have hundreds of thousands of acres of leased property that are sitting unused for drilling. If we were to open up all our shorelines and protected areas, it would be five to ten years before any of this oil would make its way to our economy. It would not ease our present pain at all. In fact, it is estimated that those reserves would last less than 2 1/2 years at our present rate of consumption.
We need to develop alternative fuels and not just corn. Nuclear, wind, solar etc. We need energy efficient vehicles, and less dependence on oil. The world's demand for oil grows every day, because it's a relatively inexpensive source of energy. But it's a finite product, and while we may not see the end of the well, our children might.
Our days of cheap gas are over. Many parts of the world have experienced this reality for some time. Only when it hits our pocket books do we look up and take notice. We have ignored the warnings of experts for some time now. Now we can no longer do so.
Posted 2008-06-19 9:51 AM (#85976 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 474 Location: White Mills, Ky.
Okay, I have to start by saying that I am quite ignorant about a lot of this. I have been reading a lot lately about drilling in the ANWR where it is said that there is enough oil to fuel America for the next 400 years. And they would only need to drill on about 1/10 of .01% of the ANWR.
I am all for environmental responsibility, but what about our government's fiscal responsibility to it's citizens? We are throwing trillions of dollars at foreign countries when we could be spending that money and creating jobs right here at home.
In the coal mining regions of KY, the companies are allowed to mine for X-number of years and then must "replenish" the site with soil and indigenous trees and plants. They have even PLANTED thistles (I have a few hundred I'd like to donate from my fence rows) and other plants to attract birds.
Maybe I am naive about all of this, but couldn't something like that work in the ANWR?
Posted 2008-06-19 10:10 AM (#85978 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 1723 Location: michigan
gard -you are totally wrong here. If we had been drilling in ANWR since Bill Clinton vetoed it in 1994-'95, since 2003 -- had we begun drilling back in the mid-nineties -- one million barrels of oil would have been on the market for use by us but instead that and 85% of the coastline is off limits to oil exploration. There is no truth to the assertion that oil reserves would be depleated within a few years. Far, far from it. In the name of the environment we haven't bulit a new refinery in some 30 years,capacity is down,demand is up...the only long term solution is MORE energy, not less.
Alternative engery is myth and a huge bust. Wind and solar is extremely inefficent. Ethenol is a inferior fuel that has a lower MPG and higher polluatnts than fossil fuels.
Your arguement that drilling now won't have an immediate impact is hog wash. its that attitude that has gotten us to this point in the first place.Instead of looking toward the future and the obvious needs to of a growing ecomony and mantaining our standard of living,stupid polticians and voters sacrificed this country in the name of the enivroment. Drill now...and keep on drilling right here, right now.
Posted 2008-06-19 10:22 AM (#85979 - in reply to #85973) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Elite Veteran
Posts: 720 Location: Never miss a good chance to shut up.
Originally written by gard on 2008-06-19 9:42 AM
The oil companies presently have hundreds of thousands of acres of leased property that are sitting unused for drilling. If we were to open up all our shorelines and protected areas, it would be five to ten years before any of this oil would make its way to our economy. It would not ease our present pain at all. In fact, it is estimated that those reserves would last less than 2 1/2 years at our present rate of consumption.
We need to develop alternative fuels and not just corn. Nuclear, wind, solar etc. We need energy efficient vehicles, and less dependence on oil. The world's demand for oil grows every day, because it's a relatively inexpensive source of energy. But it's a finite product, and while we may not see the end of the well, our children might.
Our days of cheap gas are over. Many parts of the world have experienced this reality for some time. Only when it hits our pocket books do we look up and take notice. We have ignored the warnings of experts for some time now. Now we can no longer do so.
Gard
Much of the current rise in gas is due from speculation buyers and the knowledge from oil countries that we are "captive" markets. Simply agreeing to increased drilling sends a message to the speculators that their prices from the current speculation will not continue, and that supply and demand will not hold up in future markets. As many of you know, speculators buy and sell based on futures.
It also sends a strong message to those with oil that the "golden goose" will not be around forever for them to fleece.
And yes, we CANNOT drill our way out of this, and we need alternatives so we're not captive to one form of energy like we've become accustomed.
But you have to start somewhere . . . you have to move in several directions . . . and you can't wait for perfect solutions.
And we can agree to disagree on this thread . . no problem. If the powers to be had an answer, we wouldn't be in this situation. We're all trying to find answers - and I, for one, just want to have my discontent heard - and make a positive suggestion on what we might do while we wait.
Posted 2008-06-19 11:05 AM (#85981 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 3853 Location: Vermont
Drilling on the North Slope is a con...If you are interested check where most of the oil from Alaska actually goes...It does NOT come to US refineries...
And for what an oil company pays for an offshore lease is a JOKE...I could pay for some on my credit card and not dent my credit limit...
And when it comes to paying their fair share...Check out to see what if anything MOBIL/EXXON has ever paid for the Exxon Valdez Spill...
Posted 2008-06-19 12:35 PM (#85989 - in reply to #85978) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 5870 Location: western PA
Originally written by farmbabe on 2008-06-19 11:10 AM
gard -you are totally wrong here. Alternative energy is myth and a huge bust. Wind and solar is extremely inefficent. Ethenol is a inferior fuel that has a lower MPG and higher polluatnts than fossil fuels.
Your arguement that drilling now won't have an immediate impact is hog wash. its that attitude that has gotten us to this point in the first place.
Farmbabe
And a great hog wash to you. I guess our nuclear fueled power plants don't exist? Neither do the wind farms? And the solar fields are strictly our imagination? You might want to check the latest senate sub committee's report on available fuel sources. Please have a nice day.
Posted 2008-06-19 12:49 PM (#85991 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
New User
Posts: 3
Location: NW Ohio
IMO, I think we should be doing more with hydrogen as a fuel, just for the simple fact that it is very easy to produce. Just don't fill your dirigible with it!
Posted 2008-06-19 1:08 PM (#85993 - in reply to #85991) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Elite Veteran
Posts: 720 Location: Never miss a good chance to shut up.
Wind mills and solar do exist. That's not the point. These alternatives have a long way to go to make an immediate impact, that's all we're saying. I can generate electricity with a hand crank, they exist too - but I don't think hand cranked generators are going to have a big impact on the U.S. energy needs anytime soon.
And when was the last nuclear plant built in the U.S.?
Posted 2008-06-19 1:23 PM (#85996 - in reply to #85973) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Regular
Posts: 54 Location: Danielsville,Ga.
Yep Gard,your correct,all the big Duallies and living Qtr. trailers will become boat anchors, and then we can go back to camping the way it used to be,a horse,campfire and a bedroll,
Posted 2008-06-19 1:34 PM (#85998 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 1283 Location: Home of Wild Turkey Whiskey
As long as the left wing wack jobs(see above) ideas are in play then we will never get the problem fixed. If we annouce that we are going to drill in ANWAR oil prices will fall the next day, because they are speculating on "future supply", "not current supply". The best way to describe ANWAR is take the New York Times newspaper and unfold it and lay it out flat. That is ANWAR then find an "O" on the pages somewhere, that represents the 2,000 acres that would be disrupted for drilling. So explain to me now, how that will stop the reproduction of Moose. As far as the ethanol that's a joke, the US government subsidises every gallon of E85 by $1.40 and it takes 8 tenths of a gallon of fossil fuel to produce 1 gallon of ethanol. The folks in Iowa are riding a title wave of DC cash all the way to the bank on this one, is it their fault?, no way if the stupid Government is dumb enought to come up with the program you can't blame the farmer for participating. I haven't found a windmill yet that will power my Duramax but if you know of one put me on it Mr. Enviromental Wackjob.
Posted 2008-06-19 2:40 PM (#86003 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 1723 Location: michigan
Dave you are right- so called alternatives do exist but its a myth they can't even start replacing our engery needs.
This from-
Junk Science: A Green Sings the Renewable Energy Blues
Monday, July 30, 2007
By Steven Milloy
'..........If you could collect the average annual rainfall of the 900,000-square-kilometer Canadian province of Ontario — about 680,000 billion liters of water — and store it behind a dam 60 meters tall, you would produce about 11,000 Megawatts of electricity — which is only about 80 percent of the output of Canada’s 25 nuclear power stations, Ausubel says.
In other words, this works out to a power production rate of 0.012 watts per square meter of land. It would take 1 square kilometer of land to provide enough electricity for about 12 Canadians, according to Ausubel, who says this inefficiency is a key reason for the reduced demand for hydroelectric power.
Biomass is an even worse renewable source of energy than hydroelectric power in terms of ecological harm.
Large-scale power generation from biomass would require that “vast areas be shaved or harvested annually,” Ausubel says. It would take 2,500 square kilometers of prime Iowa farmland to produce as much electricity from biomass as from a single nuclear power plant.
“Increased use of biomass fuel in any form is criminal,” Ausubel stated in a media release. “Every automobile would require a pasture of 1-2 hectares.” He added.
Wind power? While it’s much less land intensive than biomass, that’s not saying much. A 770-square-kilometer area would only produce as much electricity as a single 1,000 Megawatt nuclear plant.
A wind farm the size of Texas would be required to extract, store and transport annual U.S. energy needs. “Every square meter of Connecticut” would have to be turned into a wind farm to provide all of New York City’s electricity demands.
Solar power is also quite a land hog. As photovoltaic cells are only 10 percent efficient and have seen no breakthroughs in 30 years, U.S. electric consumption would require a 150,000-square kilometer area of photovoltaics, plus additional land for electricity storage and retrieval.
The photovoltaic industry would have to step up its production by 600,000 times to produce the same amount of power as that generated by single 1,000 Megawatt nuclear plant...."
Drill now...
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That story was tilted as far left as you can tilt a story about drilling in ANWAR, but seeing as how it came from the same folks that disrespected the Veterans of Iwo Jima, by having them hoist a tree in the air a couple months ago I can understand how they have this so wrong also. You all keep living under a tree and we will all be speaking Chinese before you know it.
Posted 2008-06-19 8:15 PM (#86019 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 2957 Location: North Carolina
Some of the post have hinted at the solution I see...
It is NOT More drilling, It is not Wind power, It is Not Nuclear, It is Not Biomass, It is Not waste fryer oil, It is not conservation, ....
It (the energy solution for us) is .....
All the above and More. Our society needs allot of energy to provide the life style that we have become accustomed to. The waste oil burners that crow about driving their diesel for less than a $1/ gal will cry a river if all diesel fuel was sourced from McDonald's. There is just not enough of any single source to keep our country operating. We should not lock away any energy source unless we want to go back to the 8th century lifestyle. Expensive energy will create jobs and opportunities along with great pain. Not using any of our resources will prolong the pain.
Drill more, Drill here, Drill Now!
Build nuclear plants, build them well, build them in my town. (I'd even live next to one, if they let me ride my horse around the plant)
Posted 2008-06-19 9:17 PM (#86022 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 3853 Location: Vermont
Environmental arguments aside, here are the dirty little secrets no one talks about with regard to domestic drilling.
Oil companies have not utilized the leases they have now
Why open up new areas to drilling when oil companies hold over 4,000 undeveloped leases in the western Gulf of Mexico? What’s more, the government already leases 44 million acres offshore, of which only 10.5 million—or one quarter—are producing oil or gas.
There isn’t enough drilling equipment.
Due to the high price of oil, existing drilling ships are “booked solid for the next five years,” and demand for deepwater rigs has driven up the price of such ships. Oil companies just don’t have the resources to explore oil fields in the OCS.
We can’t refine the oil we would extract.
In his speech yesterday, President Bush noted that, “Refineries are the critical link between crude oil and the gasoline and diesel fuel that drivers put in their tanks.” Yet refineries are already so stretched that last year, the United States had to import almost 150 million barrels of gasoline. The Wall Street Journal reported oil companies are not building new refineries because it would be bad for their bottom line. “Building a new refinery from scratch, Exxon believes, would be bad for long-term business.”
Posted 2008-06-19 10:14 PM (#86028 - in reply to #86022) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 1877 Location: NY
they is two problems- one the refiners are setting the price with speculation pricing they have the head quarters in England were the rule do not count-- two the refiner have oil in storage they hold back for a better price. so more oil will not bring the price down. if you wont it and I have it you will pay me for it . that is free trade go as far as the market will bear
Posted 2008-06-19 10:28 PM (#86030 - in reply to #85966) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 5870 Location: western PA
On tonight's news was a piece about ANWR. It stated that if Congress, which is now in session considering this proposal, approved drilling within the oil reserves today, it would take 10 (ten) years before any resulting production could be available for consumption.
How is this is going to immediately lessen our present costs?
Living near a nuclear power plant is no big deal. Because "the not in my backyard folks" have objected to any new construction, the industry's growth has stalled. I wonder if energy starved people will now reconsider.
Posted 2008-06-19 10:30 PM (#86031 - in reply to #86022) Subject: RE: Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
Expert
Posts: 2957 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2008-06-19 8:17 PM
Environmental arguments aside, here are the dirty little secrets no one talks about with regard to domestic drilling.
Oil companies have not utilized the leases they have now
Why open up new areas to drilling when oil companies hold over 4,000 undeveloped leases in the western Gulf of Mexico? What’s more, the government already leases 44 million acres offshore, of which only 10.5 million—or one quarter—are producing oil or gas.
A poor reason against more leases. Not all holes produce oil. Of the holes that produce oil, not all produce in commercial quantities. A hole has to produce a lot of oil or gas to make a production rig profitable.
In my old home town, people would drill gas wells. If they were lucky, their well would produce enough gas for a home. But the wells were not profitable enough for a commercial well.
There isn't enough drilling equipment.
Due to the high price of oil, existing drilling ships are “booked solid for the next five years,” and demand for deepwater rigs has driven up the price of such ships. Oil companies just don't have the resources to explore oil fields in the OCS.
Not enough equipment or oil today. Tomorrow's incremental addition is still an additional resource. Thinking in the short term got us in this squeeze.
We can't refine the oil we would extract.
In his speech yesterday, President Bush noted that, “Refineries are the critical link between crude oil and the gasoline and diesel fuel that drivers put in their tanks.” Yet refineries are already so stretched that last year, the United States had to import almost 150 million barrels of gasoline. The Wall Street Journal reported oil companies are not building new refineries because it would be bad for their bottom line. “Building a new refinery from scratch, Exxon believes, would be bad for long-term business.”
Oil is fungible. It can be refined anywhere and product transported if the costs allow a profit. Additional supply will go to meeting demand. The argument that Alaska's oil goes to the far east is a similar red herring. So what... Canada's oil goes to the refineries in North Dakota and then to the west coast.
Drill here, drill now. Build nuke plants. Mine tar sands. Gasify Coal. Build wind farms off the coast of NE, Research other energy. Let the risk takers take the risks in hopes of getting rich. Gov't has a terrible record of failure. Do we want to repeat the Russian experiance?
Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less
