The very essence of this forum is the free and uncensored exchange of information. A trend is developing, wherein the access to this knowledge is being confined. If you read the more recent postings, you can see a shift in attitude, where this open concept is being severely restricted.

In past postings have been threads such as "all Exiss trailers leak". The next result has included several replies that state,"I was going to buy an Exiss, but now that I know that all Exiss trailers are junk, I wouldn't touch that brand with a ten foot poll". That triggers a response from owners that angrily defend the Exiss brand and finally the post dies down, until a new forum member steps into the hornets nest with a question about Exiss trailers.

The same thing is happening about the frames of the great orange trailers, buckling floor panels on others, steel vs. aluminum and so on.

Now what is happening as a result, in an effort to avoid confrontation, people with legitimate problems or discussions, are refraining from posting their concerns. On this page alone, is the owner of an aluminum trailer who had a major problem with the floor joists cracking and the flooring being crushed by the horses. The brand of trailer was not discussed for fear of a confrontation.

Again on this page is a posting of an owner who bought a part from Exiss, and was reluctant to say so, in an effort to avoid any unpleasantness.

What we are creating, is a forum in which people who want to know of a particular problem or specific knowledge, will not have access to it. If I own an Exiss or want to buy one, I would be grateful for any information about it. I can then either avoid buying one, or know how to repair the problem I already have.

If a posting is made that states," my best friend's brother, whose grandfather has an uncle, that is a dealer who no longer sells....................". This statement has absolutely no veracity and can easily be ignored, just like the 40mph trailer accident. It has no relevance. BUT, if somebody says "my Exiss leaks at the stack vent", I want to know why, how many other people have had the same issue, and what it takes to fix the problem. This is the type of information that we should not restrict in any way. I want to know if my trailer has a problem. I don't want to know or care about your opinion of my trailer.

There have been comments made, where the posting author was reluctant to state the facts, because he was afraid of legal retaliation. It is not unlawful to write about the truth. It only becomes libelous when an unjust effort is made to slur the name of a person or business, in an effort to cause him personal or monetary harm. If you have recounted the facts as they happened, no one can win any litigation against you. 

We are becoming politically correct in an effort to not to offend anyone. We are hurting ourselves and our own precious forum because of these trends. We have to speak up and tell the facts as they are. Lets stop beating around the bushes. This forum is a wonderful venue and is worth saving.

 BOL  Gard

Well,I agree.But there's one problem: it's not always the posters on a thread that keep people reluctant to speak about brand names,or ask questions about a certain item and name it,or state what you say are the true facts about something they've purchased and are having problems with.

Case in point: some time back,a woman created a thread about buying a certain trailer from a dealer which she named,and went on to state the facts,(I assume) about the problems.This led to a discussion about dealers in general.I made a post where I stated that I had bought a trailer (I named the brand) from "---" and all I said was the first initial of a dealer.No name,just an initial,of which there are 26 of those in the alphabet.Also there are hundreds of dealers,and it could have been any one of those hundreds.Guess what happened? next thing I know,the entire post,mine,and hers,and maybe the thread,I'm not sure I remember this correctly,but,I DO know my post and hers were deleted! I didn't say a thing wrong,I spoke the truth.But,my post  got censored for speaking the truth.

I agree with you Gard and Crowleysridgegirl. In regards to making a comment about a particular dealer, if a person has had a "not so great experience" you get hushed here by top dog and threatened to be deleted. So.. how is a person supposed to know who (bad dealers) to stay away from and which trailers have issues ect ect.

edited for spelling

Since attorneys use the shotgun method when in come to defamation suits...The owner of this forum does have the right to delete messages that for whatever reason he deems that place him/her in legal jeporady...as the current cases have shown...if a web site eliminates a posting someone has deemed to be a defamation of their product or person, they can not be held liable...

In many legal systems, adverse public statements about legal citizens presented as fact must be proven false to be defamatory or slanderous/libel. Proving adverse, public character statements to be true is often the best defense against a prosecution for libel and/or defamation. Statements of opinion that cannot be proven true or false will likely need to apply some other kind of defense. The use of the defense of justification has dangers, however; if the defendant libels the plaintiff and then runs the defense of truth and fails, he may be said to have aggravated the harm.

Another important aspect of defamation is the difference between fact and opinion. Statements made as "facts" are frequently actionable defamation. Statements of opinion or pure opinion are not actionable. In order to win damages in a libel case, the plaintiff must first show that the statements were "statements of fact or mixed statements of opinion and fact" and second that these statements were false. Conversely, a typical defense to defamation is that the statements are opinion. One of the major tests to distinguish whether a statement is fact or opinion is whether the statement can be proved true or false in a court of law. If the statement can be proved true or false, then, on that basis, the case will be heard by a jury to determine whether it is true or false. If the statement cannot be proved true or false, the court may dismiss the libel case without it ever going to a jury to find facts in the case.

By the way..the above is just MY OPINION...

I didn't see the thread in which you were involved and deleted, so I don't know from first hand experience what happened. I didn't know that this forum was subject to censorship; I guess I'm naive to think that we were allowed to call a spade a spade.

I have witnessed some spirited exchanges that were not withdrawn; some that included unnecessary name calling and generalizations. It was these exchanges that led me to believe, that we, in fact had some liberties.

I can't help but wonder if it was the tone of the criticism, or the way the subject was originally presented, that resulted in the whole thread being deleted. Some complainants use personal attacks to spew their wrath, when a more objective narrative might gain further results. In all fairness to whomever the moderator is, we are sometimes our own worse enemy.

Is there a listing of rules which describes what is and what is not acceptable? I would like to be made aware of a listing of them, so I don't commit any violations.

I still believe in the premise of my original thread. If I have a problem with an Exiss trailer, I am going to ask about it and use that name. I have complained strongly about Firestone tires and have never been deleted. If the floor on my trailer is junk, I will tell anyone who will listen. But I will do it factually and explain the circumstances, and let the reader decide a course of action based on his instincts. If I try to persuade a reader to a point based on emotions and half truths, he will doubt the veracity of everything I say.

Perhaps we have to be more careful about how we present our problems and ideas. I have called some things "crap" and told people they were "ripped off" without censorship. That may evoke a different rule than allowing someone to call a dealer a crook and not to buy from him. That would be where a gray area comes into play with liability issues. To say don't buy from a certain dealer can be construed as trying to financially hurt that dealership. But to relate the facts of what the dealer did or did not do is lawful. You can say that a xyz trailer is poorly made because... (list the problems)

I hope this forum will not be curtailed by an overzealous administrator. I hope we all can continue to enjoy and learn all about our rigs, horses and friends through this venue. I have enjoyed being a member and hope that others have as well.

BOL  Gard

This is from the Board Rules section...

Section III:  Legalities

1.  Any personal message you send to another, may be copied and distributed by the person you send it to.  A good rule of thumb on the internet?  If you post it, it is public.

2.  We reserve the right to delete any message or poster for any reason.  This is a privately owned board room - and those that seek to disrupt the board for their own purposes, gains or amusement will be removed at the owners discretion.

3.  Your messages are not screened before they are posted so you remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless, Horse Trailer World and their agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).  We reserve the right to revoke your membership to the forum or disable your posting ability for any reason.

4.   Horse Trailer World reserves the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you. 

5.  If anything in this board policy bothers you or causes you undue frustration, please feel free to email us, or simply do not post on this board. 

Item #2 pretty much covers it...

My take is if a message is deleted...and you feel strongly about it...as the Judge says ...REPHRASE THE QUESTION...

or post to the administration a question if there was a complaint...the worse that can happen is they will say...It's none of your business......BTDT(been there, done that)

Thanks Paul. So if they own it, they can take their ball and go home.

 Much is constantly being discussed now without a problem, so we should still be able to converse in a civilized fashion, without incurring the wrath of the fickle finger.

Gard

I think the problem isn't with the free flow of information, its the free flow of bad information and there is a point when nothing good is coming from it.

Everyone will have a slightly different take on a situation but considers their experience the norm- for instance, I went to a local trailer dealer than had been recommended to me from several friends as being very good to deal with. I went to the dealership and wasn't  given the "easy to deal with treament" and was very disappointed. Now I could start ranting and raving about this but I won't. Too many others have been pleased customers so maybe it was a bad day, who knows? The same goes for trailers- the door latch of mine trailer sticks so is the whole line faulty? No but too many people here have knee jerk reactions,get carried away and then the chairs start flying on the board. Of course the thread is now shut down- there is no point to it any longer. Thats not politically correct but common sense managment.

As long as the posters who frequent this forum use it responsibly, everything will be fine. When thread start with the name calling and accusations, I'd rather see them stopped than continue down a path of no good. Threads with good information, helpful information, relavant information,will continue.

But I had a whole lot more wrong with the sale than just   a door latch sticking.ANd I did'nt start "ranting and raving",and,all I had said was "I bought a new trailer from B." That's it.All I said in regard to the lady's post on her thread.I think it would be  going overboard a little to construe that it was defamation of somebody's character,or that the salesman was having a bad day.I didn't see any justification for my post being deleted when at the same time,people were talking on a thread and actually getting into a pretty ugly discussion over a Sundowner trailer at the Congress show.I notice that none of you guys' posts ever get deleted,and you aren't known for reserving your opinions either. 

And for the record here,it was NOT "Shinin B" trailer sales in Kentucky that I was referring to,either.

There have been comments made, where the posting author was reluctant to state the facts, because he was afraid of legal retaliation. It is not unlawful to write about the truth. It only becomes libelous when an unjust effort is made to slur the name of a person or business, in an effort to cause him personal or monetary harm. If you have recounted the facts as they happened, no one can win any litigation against you. 

We are becoming politically correct in an effort to not to offend anyone. We are hurting ourselves and our own precious forum because of these trends. We have to speak up and tell the facts as they are. Lets stop beating around the bushes. This forum is a wonderful venue and is worth saving.

 BOL  Gard

 Maybe it is the weather today.Has anybody seen what we're in store for down here??? Not looking good.

Think that I will go exercise one of my freedoms and vote today.I waste too much time on the computer in general so I need to go do something constructive for a change.

the whole trailer forum is starting to look like something off of YouTube.Gard,guess I should have replied to your OP with a PM instead.

I created this posting to make people think about the changes that are being made to this forum. I believe I made my point. Since doing so, I have learned that because it is wholly owned and maintained by one entity, it will never be truly democratic. The moderator's rules are; there are no rules. We will do what we want when we want to. If we are to live within this constraint, we will have to maintain proper correspondence that is acceptable.

At various times, we have been allowed to vent without censorship. Not everything negative has been deleted. We are, apparently, being given enough space to state our problems if it doesn't get out of hand.

I can only assume that the problem CRG had, was that she was caught up in a larger discussion, wherein the entire posting was deleted to alleviate an out of control thread.

My original premise was that we are unnecessarily censuring ourselves, in an effort not to start an argument. By doing so, we are limiting the knowledge and experiences that pattern the very reason this forum exists.

Unless you include a large manufacturer who is willing to sue an individual with no hope of any collection, there is little reason to fear being involved in any litigation within the confines of this forum. Just because Jane Doe does not like the way I called her favorite brand of trailer a pile of junk, she will have a long and expensive road, only to discover she won't have any recovery to appease her feelings. The libel laws are clear, to win you have to show an intent of damage. Stating the facts does not qualify.

At least this thread stirred things up a bit, and woke us out of our midwinter stupor. In the future, when necessary, I will not be so generic in some of my discussions. However, I will always try to be factual and not disrespectful.

Farmbabe, I believe your posting about the flow of poor information is spot on. Your thread was excellent and I wish I were able to express myself as well.

I thank all of you, who thought enough of this problem, to take the time to express your feelings. You are the very fabric of this forum and the reason it has succeeded so well.

BOL  Gard

Good discussion. 

No changes have been made to the board, and in fact, little on this board has been deleted over the course of the past nine years.  When a thread is removed, 90% of the time it's because several have written to complain and the thread has run it's course anyway.  The other 10% has been my own discretion on what's fair. 

Here's what we have to deal with and any suggestions for a win/win is welcome.

1.  This board is for information, and is not a court of law or even a forum for arbitration in legal disputes.  But people try to use it for that.

People can post about bad product/service experiences.  That is good information and the reader can draw legitimate inferences.   But when they name company's or individuals involved, they are in fact using US to forward their own agenda.  Do we have a right to know who bad sellers/buyers are?  Absolutely!  That's why we have a legal system.  If someone has been found guilty we want to know about it here.

I'd love to have a "free" board where nothing is deleted.  Unfortunately, anger and emotion often erases fair play.  People who have been "wronged" sometimes go on the attack, and attacks on a "free" board quickly result in a very quiet and "unfree" board. 

It's a tough balance.  I've had people email us and accuse us of allowing their reputation to be crucified when a thread was allowed to continue, and in fact, threaten us with legal action.  But when we occasionally delete a thread, we become bookburning, Nazi censors.

Speaking of POLITICAL!! Any of you exercising your right to vote today? Here in N.C. we don't get to have any say on the matter until May 06 2008. By then it's pretty much a "done deal", don't think we'll sway the outcome one way or another.

Horse Trailer, just felt like I should to say something about a horse trailer, cause this IS, HTW!! Not "POLITICS WORLD"

Hey...I didn't say it was cheap...

and I DEFINITELY didn't say it was QUICK...

I know what 25 lawyers at the bottom of the sea is....

A good start...

Or what do you call 25 lawyers buried up to their necks...

Not deep enough...

Wow, what a wasps nest this discussion thread has become....

Here is my two cents worth:

1. The individual(s) that own this forum have the right to censor it as they fit. It's kind of like living in your parent's house and living by their rules while under their roof. Anyone who doesn't like it can leave and start their own ultimate freedom of speech forum. For the record, this is not meant as a personal attack against ANYONE in this forum as I  have not yet seen any postings that I have interpreted as offensive. I can understand the owners of the forum deleting posts if someone complains about it. Why is this anyone's hill to die on? Move on.

2. One thing that has not been mentioned is the impact of naming a company or individual on the advertisers who pay to market their products. Above the forums are advertising banners for dealerships, trailers, etc... If one of those paid advertisers are named in a negative manner then I can see why they would complain to the owner of the site. The issue of whether the complaint is legitimate would be irrelevant. I can also see how this entire forum could easily turn into a complaint board once that tone was set. As others have pointed out, this is an information forum and not a venue to resolve disputes. That is what the courts are for.

Anyways, that is my opinion. Again, I am absolutely not singling out any one person in a negative manner so please do not look for any subtext in my comments. I am a regular user of this forum and I really enjoy the content and the opinions provided by the many wise and experienced people who contribute here.

Regards,

Jodie