Posted 2008-01-31 8:07 AM (#75695 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 430
Location: TN
Okay... You got my feathers ruffled but probably not in the way you intended. I love the way these videos are editted. There are always people that are abusive of animals no matter what the situation, BUT WITHOUT SEEING THESE SITUATIONS FROM THE BEGINNING WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE TRUTH IS.
The point that most people opposed to production agriculture can't seem to understand is that happy, healthy animals produce much more that ones who are abused. Did you know that the man with the skid loader was trying to get a downer cow up to try to get her back on her feet? Sometimes they need to be picked up and have their feet placed back underneath them because they can't get up by themselves. This is a last step measure before they are destroyed because they can't get up! No one talks about the farmers who don't push production in order to keep their animals longer. Any idiot can figure out that it is better to take care of the animals you have rather than replace them.
You may be shocked at what happens in some small animal veterinary clinics as far as "humane" treatment and euthanasia. I've seen animals bagged and put in a freezer before their last breath has been taken. I've seen small animal vets be rough and abusive with animals that aren't cooperative.
We had a horse we put recently down after spending 3 weeks working with vets to even keep him on his feet or from casting himself in a stall or through our fence. Had anyone seen me whacking at him trying to get him up or keep him up, they would have assumed I was beating the snot out of him, which is the furthest thing from the truth! This was an animal we considered to be a member of our family and had invested a lot into emotionally and were devestated to lose, but this is a large animal who needs to handled sometimes not as gently as an uneducated general public perceives. I won't even go into the amount of time and money spent to attempt to heal this horse and keep him comfortable.
Check out both sides of the story before believing propaganda. What do you truely know about production agriculture in order to judge it? Do you have a degree in Animal Science? Have you ever been to a real working farm? Have you ever spent a day with a farmer when the temperature doesn't rise above zero and it seems like it is impossible to get anything accomplished? Or spent the day making hay and putting it away when it is 90 plus degrees in the shade? Do you have any idea where your food comes from???
LIFE AIN'T ALWAYS BEAUTIFUL!!! When we Americans as a society wake up and realize this, maybe we can concentrate on putting our efforts towards the real problems in society! Drug addiction, alcoholism, child abuse, homelessness, unemployment, war....
Posted 2008-01-31 8:22 AM (#75696 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 294
Location: Fort Worth, Tx
I will second what Cutter said about not judging by what you have been presented here. I work with animals and know from personal experience that what a group like PETA and even the HSUS will present as truth is, more often than not, lies. In fact PETA has been known to actually stage the production-that is they actually are hurting the animals themselves and filming it, then blaming it on someone else. (In my opinion, PETA is less about saving animals and more about getting publicity) So I always reserve judgment when it comes to something that I have not witnessed firsthand in this kind of situation. That being said, it is everyone's responsibility that works with/owns animals to treat them in a humane manner-but as Cutter said, you can't judge what that as until you are in the situation yourself.
Posted 2008-01-31 8:56 AM (#75700 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 430
Location: TN
I think the other thing that riles me up is the fact it says "campaign" right in the link address. "Campaigns" are planned and plotted, hoping to guide the end to a specific result.
I'm not sure we should be picking on production agriculture when the horse world itself has some nasty issues to deal with. I'm always amazed at the number of people who profess to love horse racing and yet do not see it as cruelty. Most people don't know what a pit is on the back stretch of a track is used for. I am also amazed at the number of so called "rescues" out there- saving horses that should have been euthanised a long time ago. When the horse world finishes cleaning up our act, then we can start criticizing other aspects of the agriculture industry.
Posted 2008-01-31 11:36 AM (#75718 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 219
Location: Mt. Clemens, MI 48043
I also agree with Cutter. I have a throughbred we thought of training and running her too. You must understand we were new to the "Racing Industry." After what we have seen, we decided to just have her be a family horse. Cutter only told us just a little of what goes behind the scenes. Our horse is kept where they have racing horses. They are 2/3 year olds that are exercised six days a week, shoed every month, kept in their stalls except for when they are exercised, or travel to the track. Then back into their stalls they go. No wonder one of them is on Prozack. There is always more than what you see. I have talked to dairy farmers and cattleman, the truth is not always pleasant.
Posted 2008-01-31 12:03 PM (#75721 - in reply to #75695) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 148
Location: South of Dallas
Originally written by cutter99 on 2008-01-31 8:07 AM
You may be shocked at what happens in some small animal veterinary clinics as far as "humane" treatment and euthanasia. I've seen animals bagged and put in a freezer before their last breath has been taken. I've seen small animal vets be rough and abusive with animals that aren't cooperative.
AMEN!! I was a vet tech for 8 yrs. I STILL have nightmares about things I've seen.
Posted 2008-01-31 12:57 PM (#75731 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
Expert
Posts: 2828
Location: Southern New Mexico
Are you sure that video was shot at a slaughter house? All I saw were dairy cows. Not one "beef" breed was present. They were all Holstiens. I have a friend that had a dairy and when a cow went down the only way to get her out was to drag her out if she couldn't regain her feet.
Posted 2008-01-31 2:02 PM (#75736 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 1069
Location: MI.
It was sent to me via e-mail. It's good to hear opinions. It does look bad but I wanted to see if there is reasoning if you will behind it. The one thing that bothered me was when they couldn't get the cow up, it appeared to be still alive when being dragged. I could be wrong though.....
Posted 2008-01-31 2:51 PM (#75739 - in reply to #75736) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
Expert
Posts: 2828
Location: Southern New Mexico
I think the cow was alive, but can you think of any other way to move an animal that heavy that can't stand? I think it was worse, with a greater chance for injury, when they were trying to move it with the forklift.
Posted 2008-01-31 3:11 PM (#75746 - in reply to #75739) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
Expert
Posts: 1877
Location: NY
I had a horse with EPM and she when down in her stall and could not get up the vet tranquilized her and we drag her out side to euthorize her It look bad but it was the only thing to do
Posted 2008-01-31 4:01 PM (#75750 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 1723
Location: michigan
We are dairy farmers and have had down cows over the years. Its usually due to a bad calving- the calf is too big and the cow cannot deliver the calf without help. It usually results in some nerve damage or at least alot of damage which results in pain when the cow tried to stand. Sometimes they do get sick and in the process of getting up, can injure themselves. In any case, you do have to move them ( such as out of a pasture and to a spot better suited to caring for them) the only way to move 1500 cow is to drag them- a chain around the neck ( not to choke them) hook it up to a loader tractor- off you go. There comes a point where no matter what you do, you cannot get a cow to stand. You can beat the crap out of her- she won't budge. We have used extremely hot water spray on her face, if she can get up, she will.
Most people don't understand animal agriculture. As said before- you can't make money with sick,neglected or abused animals. Yet you cannot treat them as if they are human.We like warm houses but that would cause respriatory problems with animals. most cows are content to live in barns not open pastures. Calves don't care who their mother is as long as they get fed. Dehorning is a necessary procedure...the list goes on but really thats not the point of PETA- they don't want to educate the public- they want money-PERIOD. They can dupe so many stupid Oprah loving people into giving money to help the animals when in fact, it helps only them. most laws passed by ignornace ends up hurting the animals they are trying to help ( allegedly).
As farmers, we have to deal with misinformation all the time. Once you explain something, most people realise the purpose and intent of our practices. Too bad there are so many people that buy into this crap.
Posted 2008-01-31 4:21 PM (#75753 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 1205
Location: Arkansas
FYI, a cow, bull, steer, whatever, has to walk in to the sale barn, no downers allowed to be sold, same thing for the slaughter house. Our family has a USDA approved slaughterhouse, with an independent govt inspector, and I can tell you the law is definite on no cattle that have broken limbs, non-ambulatory, or cancerous are allowed to pass inspection and into the slaughter process. The dairy cattle seen in the video do not represent a slaughter pen, either in facilities seen in the video or the type of cattle utilized primarily for consumption. In addition cattle that are down will become dead cattle if they are not lifted, supported or whatever it takes to get them standing or keep them standing. There are special lifts, slings, and metal hoop arrangements designed to lift a cow up by the hips and hold her up til she can stand on her own. Inspiring a cow that has given up to get up takes some doing.... that video was incomplete and suspect.
Posted 2008-01-31 5:26 PM (#75759 - in reply to #75753) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 1989
Location: South Central OK
I can tell you from personal experience that not all animals "walk" into slaughterhouses. We took a calf in last year that danced with a Buick. I'm eating some of him tonight....
Posted 2008-02-03 2:42 PM (#75951 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 316
Location: Illinois
It's one thing to eat your own downed cattle, but to throw them into the foodchain without testing is not responsible farming. The way they were rolling that dairy cow about with a forklift can not be defined as anything but cruel. They were obviously not trying to 'help' that cow to it's feet, just move it to where they wanted it moved to. If you look closely there are a few cattle that are standing that are questionable.
I am not a vegan, but do believe the meat we eat should be treated with some respect.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated”
Posted 2008-02-03 3:59 PM (#75954 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 1723
Location: michigan
Treated wih respect? What the crap does that mean? How do you "respect" a chicken or a hog? Thats just silly talk. Makes no sense whats so ever and I bet you have never been in farming at all.
I don't believe anything PETA says or does. They are more than willing to do whatever it takes to make a buck from unsuspecting dupes which makes up a huge part of the american population and most of the rest of the world. We are so far removed from animal agriculture that people don't understand it, not to mention, we have given animals "human"status- our emotions, thoughts and feeling...and of course "rights".
As a real life farmer, I'm here to say it ain't always pretty down on the farm. Don't get me started on the big bad "corporate" farming crap either, I mean do you want to eat or not?
Posted 2008-02-03 7:14 PM (#75973 - in reply to #75688) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 238
Location: West Coast
I agree with the comments made by Cutter and Farmbabe. I do think that livestock need to be treated humanely, but how they are handled is different than how we handle our house pets.
These videos are aimed at the average person in the US who knows nothing about livestock. Unfortunately, PETA and the HSUS are not stupid, and this propaganda works very well for them. A bunch of people in my office were all riled up after seeing this video. I tried to explain to them that these cattle were down and if they don't want to/can't get up, you can't just lift them without something much stronger than a human.
Because of this video, some schools in the towns near us are going to stop serving beef to school children.
Posted 2008-02-03 8:54 PM (#75981 - in reply to #75954) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 316
Location: Illinois
Try again Babe. You can treat a chicken or hog with respect and certainly a cow/steer, by feeding it right, not causing any unnecessary stress to the animal before slaughter. I've got plenty of farmers in my family. Best way to get good meat, not just quantity. Downed animals that can't get up, especially for unknown reasons do not need to be put into our food chain, ever! Anyone who can view these images and think otherwise needs to take a good look at themselves. These images do explain why there are more and more outbreaks of e-coli and such issues with meat. As for anyone who would even consider eating their long time companion of a horse as it may be more convenient and tasty is not someone I need for a friend either. After all, I spent around $3,000 (not a fortune, but not exactly in my budget either) saving the live of a then 31yo horse last year. He is still with me and is again amazing people with his spunk and can do attitude, even though I keep trying to tell him he's retired. Even without that for everything we've done together it would have been so wrong for me to quit on him the first time he became 'inconvenient'. After all, he never has quit on me. We took a second place our first time team penning when he was 29yo. BTW I can't thank Purdue University enough for all they did for him and me. Though I think they are amazed at how well he recovered too.
This is my Great Grandmaw Wyns. No small wonder that I inherited the horse gene.
Originally>
Treated wih respect? What the crap does that mean? How do you "respect" a chicken or a hog? Thats just silly talk. Makes no sense whats so ever and I bet you have never been in farming at all.
I don't believe anything PETA says or does. They are more than willing to do whatever it takes to make a buck from unsuspecting dupes which makes up a huge part of the american population and most of the rest of the world. We are so far removed from animal agriculture that people don't understand it, not to mention, we have given animals "human"status- our emotions, thoughts and feeling...and of course "rights".
As a real life farmer, I'm here to say it ain't always pretty down on the farm. Don't get me started on the big bad "corporate" farming crap either, I mean do you want to eat or not?
Posted 2008-02-03 10:06 PM (#75990 - in reply to #75695) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 792
Location: East Tennessee, USA, Planet Earth
>>There are always people that are abusive of animals no matter what the situation, BUT WITHOUT SEEING THESE SITUATIONS FROM THE BEGINNING WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE TRUTH ISThe truth is right there...how can you deny that those animals were being inhumanely treated?>>Did you know that the man with the skid loader was trying to get a downer cow up to try to get her back on her feet? Yes...so she could bne slaughter? But the question should be...why can she NOT get up? The humane thing to do...was to put her down, not try to force her to stand.>> No one talks about the farmers who don't push production in order to keep their animals longer. Any idiot can figure out that it is better to take care of the animals you have rather than replace themGood for those farmers!! I do not eat a lot of meat, and when I do...I make sure that is was humanly raised. I am willing to pay extra $$$ to ensure that the animal that is giving me life...lived a free range life....grazing on grass and not in a feed lot.>>small animal veterinary clinics as far as "humane" treatment and euthanasia. I've seen animals bagged and put in a freezer before their last breath has been takenOwners should stay with their pets until the very end.>>I've seen small animal vets be rough and abusive with animals that aren't cooperativeHave you spoken up for the animals???????>>truely know about production agriculture in order to judge it? Buy from a community supported farm!
Posted 2008-02-03 10:09 PM (#75991 - in reply to #75731) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 792
Location: East Tennessee, USA, Planet Earth
>> Are you sure that video was shot at a slaughter house? All I saw were dairy cows. Not one "beef" breed was presentwhat do you think happens to dairy cows when their milk production goes down?>>when a cow went down the only way to get her out was to drag her out if she couldn't regain her feetwhy not euthanise the poor cos first???
Posted 2008-02-03 10:18 PM (#75993 - in reply to #75750) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
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Posts: 792
Location: East Tennessee, USA, Planet Earth
>> We have used extremely hot water spray on her face, if she can get up, she willIMHO...this is inhumane. If you know that the cow can not get up...for goodness sake put her down. Why torture an animal?
Posted 2008-02-03 10:27 PM (#75994 - in reply to #75954) Subject: RE: Not to ruffle any feathers but.....
Elite Veteran
Posts: 792
Location: East Tennessee, USA, Planet Earth
>> Treated wih respect? What the crap does that mean? How do you "respect" a chicken or a hog? That's right...treat the animal with respect! That animal is dying so you can live. Respect to me means giving them a humane life that includes living in a pasture NOT in a damm flitly feedlot. That means using humane transport, that means making sure that they are not under undue stress during the slaughter process.There animals are providing you with life, the leas that we can do is treat them with respect!>>we have given animals "human"status- our emotions, thoughts and feeling...and of course "rights"how can you deny that animals feel pain!???>> As a real life farmer, I'm here to say it ain't always pretty down on the farmThen I feel sad for those animals on your farm. You are making a living on them, you should be grateful to them and yes...respect them.