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Soring horses

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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2006-09-15 12:28 AM (#48572)
Subject: Soring horses




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Location: KY

This year the TWH Celebration at Shelbyville was marred by extreme controversy.  As a result, several people have been suspended.  Senator Bill Frist has proposed an amendment to the Horse Protection Act which would allow some soring methods to continue.  I have emailed his office the following:

Please reconsider your request to amend the Horse Protection Act.  Your amendment would allow mechanical soring as well as purposeful foundering of horses in order to show the "big lick."  I am sure you mean well but the soring methods are as numerous as horses.  I have Tennessee Walking Horses because I am a Tennessean, born and bred;  and they are wonderful horses.  Both the Tennessee Walking horse and the State of Tennessee are hurt by people who will do anything to win.  I urge you to speak with equine veternarians about this issue, not just owners and trainers.  The mess at Celebration this year makes Tennesseans and Tennessee horses look very bad.  Please do some more research before pushing for amendment of the Horse Protection Act.  Thank you. 

IMO to cause pain to a horse for the sole purpose of obtaining an edge over competitor horses is shameful.  Personally, I would much prefer that DQP's and judges call a sored horse a sored horse (and keep the gov't out in the process).  When an industry fails to do what is ethical, then gov't gets involved, to no one's benefit.  So to all show horse people, is  a "little sore" acceptable?  Please take a stand for the sake of your horses and the show industry. 

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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-09-15 12:53 AM (#48574 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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Actually it wasn't soring that is the main issue per se.Its called the SCAR rule.Its from calus forming on the lower legs due to action chains.The issue is a horse is passed ok one night(scar rule) and written up the next night for scar rule.The TWH show folks want a standard that can be adheard to.Thats their big beef in a small nutshell.Personally I know the gimicks are still being used but nowhere near the extent it was years back.This scar rule thing is NOT consistent and has lots of TWH folks really po'ed.Heck there have been horses passed and flunked in the same night of showing.
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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2006-09-15 1:46 AM (#48577 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses




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Location: KY

Houndog:  I know the "scar" rule is a problem;  possibly because it is mis-named.  But the amendment leaves it wide open to do some of the tricks such as putting half a golf ball under the pads, "quicking" a hoof on purpose, purposely foundering horses and so forth.  IMO the action chains alone will not cause the extensive callous formation.  With the use of kerosene, go-jo and other substances and action chains, callouses will form very quickly.  Most trainers only work padded horses for 30 minutes to an hour a day, and not seven days a week.  So when a three year old has callous formation, it isn't only from the use of chains.

Now having said that, the Walking Horse Report states that three equine vets wrote the Frist amendment to the HPA.  For anyone interested that site is  www.walkinghorsereport.com

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windwalker2
Reg. Mar 2006
Posted 2006-09-15 5:55 AM (#48580 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses



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Okay, here I go. I'm sure I'll get my a#* chewed out on this one.  Anyone trying to "alter" a horses feet for the  purpose of "SHOWING" or any other reason, should be prosecuted for animal abuse. There's no such thing as a little soring, like there's no such thing as a "little" abuse.  I purchased my TWH from a show barn and what I saw there made me sick.  They sold him because he had one white hoof and one black.  Doesn't look good in the frigging show ring I guess.  (Well that's what they claimed anyway.)  I say, thank god he wasn't "soring worthy"........

I've been told that soring is illegal in this country.  Am I wrong?

 

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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-09-15 6:48 AM (#48582 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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Show folks been culling for the off white for decades.Not as much now as lots of Sabinos show but it use to be standard.I'm showing a Tobiano in the Liminted performance division.Its a CHAIN class with a flat shoe against solids.He HAS no calius at least not yet.He has shown three times and in classes of 5 or 6 was not used at all(was told the best in the class)(actually told he is one of the BEST Tobi horses thats been seen in years)and then in a 14 horse class took the blues.Old judges do NOT like colored horses.Oh I agree with all of the above BUT it needs to be a level playing field which I'm told it is NOT.I don't like Walking horse trainers as horsemen.Think they spend LOTS of time training through lower legs.But the FEDS checking is not consistent is the BIG gripe they have. Only reason I'm playing the game is to sell him for $$$$$$$.I HATE showing or throwing money at a show horse.Trainer KNOWS my feelings about soring and showing etc.But if I want what I call big money for him thats the game I have to play.
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windwalker2
Reg. Mar 2006
Posted 2006-09-15 7:04 AM (#48584 - in reply to #48582)
Subject: RE: Soring horses



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Hounddog:  Man,,,, this is like being in the "bazzaro" world of showing to me.............."scary" too.   Make's me even more happier that I rescued my TWH from that barn.  (Even though I paid money for him, I still call it a "rescue")

Geesh!  

  

 

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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2006-09-15 7:05 AM (#48585 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses




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Location: KY

Good morning folks.  If a horse has white feet, it is easier to see the movement of the feet.  Just like when you're looking for  a horse at night, it is easier to see the ones with white on them.

Houndog:  You are right about the problems in inspection and judging.  It is not a level playing field, but so long as people are involved, there will always be some problems of that kind.  It is not fair or right, but neither is life in general.  All of us should strive for fairness in all aspects, including but not limited to the show ring.  I truly wish that all of this could have been handled within the industry.  Nobody comes out when the gov't steps in.

 

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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-09-15 7:17 AM (#48586 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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On a gaited horse one white stocking/foot etc.makes the gait look off.Its a optical illusion but none the less it looks odd.For years in all gaited breeds they wanted solid colored horses period to show.Even then the yellows,grays etc.had a disadvantage.Thats changed a lot.I get folks ask me you show HIM(my tobi stud)in WALKING horse classes! Hell he IS a Walking horse.Down her the SPOTTED shows are far and few its a Tenn.Kentucky thing.Plus I HATE a Walker in WESTERN gear.They are NOT a Western horse.I don't even ride my trail horses in a Western saddle(YUK) I ride Trooper gear or Aussie(not in several years). I'm GLAD the FEDS are on their rear BUT I understand about this SCAR rule thing being very subjective.Got to understand its a 330 MILLION dollar a year industery for the state of Tenn. I DO NOT want this young stud coming home.I want to sell him.So he and I are  in the game.
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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2006-09-15 10:52 AM (#48602 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses




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Location: KY

Houndog:  I too like the saddeseat saddle and attire for the show ring.  Just seems more dressed up!  My main horse has 4 white socks. 

Best wishes to you in selling your stallion. 

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Ardly
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2006-09-15 4:28 PM (#48618 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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We went to the Magnolia Classic this year in Corinth,Ms. as We have for several years past.Went on the last night of competition and seen first hand the results of having fed inspectors on hand for the show.The first few classes went normally then suddenly they started skipping classes then some with only 1-2 horses entering the ring.This went on for the entire show and the next thing We knew the show was over.This was a show that normally drew competition from all over the country,with a packed ring,yet could hardly get horses in the ring for the usual classes.This was a obvious disgrace to the so called"INDUSTRY".Allthough I wasn't told that this was the reason for the poor attendance at this show,In my oppinion this is what happened

We own 1 Tn.Walker and I have owned 1 in the past.We love to watch them show in the ring and have found no other breed that has the appeal that this one does.        Allthough the walking horse association has furthered this breed for the good in many aspects,this is not one of them.In my opinion they have transformed the "INDUTRY" to just that,an INDUSTRY where people will do just about anything to get there hands on some $$$  If there not in it for the money then the prestiage of owning the so called best. In the end the horses are the losers from being subject to the crual "training" methods that plaque this show breed. The twhbea has in my opinion has done an extreme diservice to the breed with there allowances of whats exceptable for the "BIG LICK". I know that some will say that it's not the twhbea's fault,that they couldn't control what the owners and trainers done but imho they hold most of the blame for further promoting rules allowing (ANY SORING OF ANY KIND).The most likely reason for the sudden inspections was a resent article in EQUUS magazine that brought to light the obsurd "training methods" that are often used.I'm personaly glad that they printed the article and brought this to the publics attention.Looks like it has stirred up some folks interest!

We love our TWH and would like to see the breed prosper, but not with crual treatment of the horse!         I'm for NO SORING OF ANY KIND and that's where I"m gonna stay!

"Senator Bill Frist has proposed an amendment to the Horse Protection Act which would allow some soring methods to continue."

In my oppinion this goes to show how political pressure and possibly some money under the table gets things done! There obviously is no shame when you hold an office!

                                         ,Ardly 

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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-09-15 5:09 PM (#48621 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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Equus was somewhat off base with their article in my opinion.I am nowhere near a advocate of soring but all SHOW horses have gaits,tail sets,showing and cruel things done for the most part to a certain degree.I don't care for jumpers in the way that horses are not built to jump or I should say LAND and lots of crippled jumpers out there.Anything to do with horses and showing for the most part is a industry.Some just have a lot more money involved then others.This debate can and has in some circles gone on forever.Same as horse slaughter.
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RoperChick
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-09-15 5:39 PM (#48624 - in reply to #48618)
Subject: RE: Soring horses



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Originally written by Ardly on 2006-09-15 2:28 PM

I'm for NO SORING OF ANY KIND and that's where I"m gonna stay!

"Senator Bill Frist has proposed an amendment to the Horse Protection Act which would allow some soring methods to continue."

In my oppinion this goes to show how political pressure and possibly some money under the table gets things done! There obviously is no shame when you hold an office!

                                         ,Ardly 

Ardly, I couldn't agree more.  Under no circumstances should you have to make a horse sore to perform.

 

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farmbabe
Reg. Nov 2003
Posted 2006-09-15 8:38 PM (#48626 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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I do not own, show or ride TWH of any kind. But this is my opinion- the testing rules  ( from what I have read) so seem subjective. That, in itself, makes the whole process ripe for controversy. Unlike drug testing,you ( the owner and/or exhibitor) are at the mercy of who ever is doing the inspection. Many owners and trainers have alot of money invested in the horses ( and its not greedy to want to make your living raising or breeding horses) to be turned away from a show espcially when you have been able to show previously, would make people very upset and i don't blame them. I have no doubt there are some trainers who would galdly take the easy way out and sore the horses. I have to think the vast majority of them are trying to do things the right way. I know in the arabian world, people onn the outside are always complaining about "big name trainers" who use abusive methods, yet they never name names....its always this mysertious Big NAme Trainer. Anytime someone gets successful, little people try to bring them down.

Someone posted that some trainers purposely founder a horse to get the big lick.Doesn't this seem at odds with the reality foundered horses are dead lame? This sounds like a bunch of misinformation...rumors....that get started and make a real bad name for the breed and its owners/trainers. I'd like to get facts not rumors. Did the THW people deserve a bad rep? maybe. Is it as bad as some say? I really don't know but my gut instict tells me to view many of these allegations with a healthy degree of skepticism.....



Edited by farmbabe 2006-09-15 8:40 PM
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loveduffy
Reg. Feb 2006
Posted 2006-09-15 10:45 PM (#48627 - in reply to #48626)
Subject: RE: Soring horses



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i think that soring of any horse make all horse poeple look very bad.  i work at  at different stable and all had some way to MAKE the horse do better. it makes me sick what poeple will to for a ribbon
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-09-16 5:03 AM (#48628 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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Soring is a broad term like the word colic.It comes in many forms from a little dishwashing detregent to more serious.From what the trainer I use tells me ALL the better trainers are VERY nervous.Its how they make a living.The guy that has my colt is on a 8 month suspension now for the sensitivy rule.He took in 6 horses from a new client that had beed witgh another trainer.Client wanted some or what not shown two weeks later.One COLT did not like his lower leg handled and kept pulling it away during inspection.BAM 8 month suspension. trainer can go to the show,but can't show a horse or even drive his rig into the show grounds but can ride in passenger seat on to the grounds.Can't be on the rail but can be away from the rail on a two way.He's taking 6 to a show tonight.Has two other guys(one client)that is showing horses and trainer will use the two way radios etc. Trainer I have says he can spot a sored horse from just the way it goes for the most part and yes he knows all the tricks of the trade.He says MOST trainers are wetting their britches and are NOT soring.As far as foundering one.Well not on purpose and yes it would be dead lame.He now handles lower legs a lot so when handled no pulling back or acting stupid on the horses part.The sensitive thing was no differant then like one pulling away with a farrier or when picking a hoof but got trainer suspended.All of his horses have passed the scar rule and the sniffer many times now.

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windwalker2
Reg. Mar 2006
Posted 2006-09-16 6:27 AM (#48630 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses



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Look,,,,,,,I don't know squat about showing and don't really care, but I do know what I have seen with my own damned eye's.  Blocks of wood attached to horses hoofs, standing in stalls.  Jesus God almighty!  This abuse should be punishable by "LAW" if caught.  It's abuse, plan and simple.  And yes I know there's other things that are done to alter horse's looks for the showring, other than grooming.  But the horse's feet, come on.  NO FEET, NO HORSE!  What the heck is so wrong in "showing" a horse in it's natural form?  I blame every registered breed's association and the discipline associations for all of this.  They caused this and no one else..................
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-09-16 6:50 AM (#48631 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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No one comes to shows with only flat shod walking horses.They come to see the BIG LICK. What you described is called BLOCKING.Its  used on a FLAT SHOD horse(big lick horse would not feel it through the pad) and they use a piece of heavy tire with a bolt,nuts,washers through it and its wedged into the shoe on a FLAT SHOD horse and bolt is adjusted to put pressure on the toe area then horse is left in the stall with them for a few hours or overnight.Then its pulled out.A guy(NOT A TRAINER) but a amature was caught recently at a big show with his FLAT SHOD horse standing in the stall on blocks.He had charges filed (sheriff)and a lifetime suspension from Twhbea.
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farmbabe
Reg. Nov 2003
Posted 2006-09-16 8:38 AM (#48632 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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I show arabians in weighted shoes with leather pads..is this abuse?
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Ardly
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2006-09-16 8:56 AM (#48634 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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Unlike some of the other posters believe, I believe this to be very commonplace.As i stated in my earlier post, the show at Corinth,Ms usually had a full house as far as entries went. Did they all get suspended? Not in my understanding of the way things go when the fed. inspecters show up. Thats when the word is passed out in the stables that they are present and everyone starts taking there horses back to the barn. I will say that I firmly believe there are reputable trainers as well as owners and the honest ones would likely leave along with the crual for the simple reason that anything that falls in the category of soring will be dealt with even if there has been no abuse involved. I'm sure a reputable trainer don't want that image or suspension to deal with when he has done nothing wrong! Bottom line is that this competition was doomed from the start, when people decided that to gain an edge over the others it was acceptable to cause the horse pain to exagerate his gait. Not unlike any sport that people push the envelope to outdo the rest. An aqaintence of ours told of the way that a fairly well known training barn solved there problem about the horse jerking it's sore to the touch foot from the inspectors hand, They picked up his foot and let him jerk it away then beat him everytime that he didn't hold still for them till he finally held his foot still no matter how much pain he was in. I know ,this is just an isolated incident and REAL trainers don't do such things,right! I believe that some people need to get there heads out of the sand and pay attention.Give most people a little time and they'll slip there training methods out for you to see.

Should anyone be ashamed for trying to make a living training and showing horses, Certainly not! Should they sore the horse for there own profit and notoriaty,Not in this guys book! By the way, the article in EQUUS magazine featuring this special report was in the November 2005 issue should anyone be interested.Some very informative reading for the unbelieving!

                         ,Ardly

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Ardly
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2006-09-16 9:12 AM (#48635 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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I had a neighbor that owned a twh for thirty+ years that showed him for the most part of his life,He kept pads on him for all of his showing(52 weeks a year) career which incompassed the better part of his life.He stayed in an approx.10by20 stall for his entire life what time that he wasn't being trained or shown,hardly seeing daylight thru the cracks in the barn walls.He took me to see his horse before he and the horse passed away and said that he won most of the shows that he'd been put in,was this abuse?        Don't know about ya'll, but standing in a 10by20by 2 feet of manure for 30+ years seems a little much,Sorry!

                                        ,Ardly

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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-09-16 10:32 AM (#48639 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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Lots of old Saddlebreds,walkers,Arabs that if it wasn't for showing not much good for anything else.Too high strung for pleasure animals etc.Most live a long life.If your going to getr into all that chickens,pigs,beef cattle,dairy cattle all have odd lives with a unnatural ending.As I statedbefore I understand what the FEDS are trying to do but there is no inforced standard.Thats the reason most of the trainers leave the shows.Likethe trainer I use.A COLT that was a little fractous over someone grabbing his foot and jabbing his thumb into it and pulled away.That got a ticket for the owner and trainer.The scar rule which is a calus.Friday night horse passes in one town and the next night is written in another town.that calus did not appear over night.Thats the what the trainers have issue with.That same colt that caused trainer I use to get a 8 month suspension wa shown the following weekend with no issues after getting his feet handled a lot.I fully understand BOTH sides.I do think the FEDS have a hard time coming to them after the celebration   ordeal. I will state again.its a 330 MILLION dollar a year industary in the state of Tenn.alone.It got a LOT of folks irrate.It will come to a boil and ebb down.Might have already.The padded horses with action chains will not go away.Reset my colt about 6 weeks ago in a SSHBEA legal shoe with no action device(chain) He was ok but NOT as exciting to watch  as with a wedge and a two ounce chain.He's almost awesome with this setup.Reset him last week BACK to the wedge and chain for the Performance division. I 'll tell you one thing about this colt.He's a ninny when it comes to pain.He'll bite the crap out of you just getting a vaccine or if a little cut acts like he's mortality wounded.If his feet hurt or lower legs he would not perform like he does.Ears up,bright look on him and he is consistent.Works the same day after day anytime or anyplace.
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sinful1
Reg. Jul 2006
Posted 2006-09-16 6:36 PM (#48642 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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Location: Central Iowa
'll bet you'd also step higher if you had a chain slapping you in the ankle every step you took.  Maybe you should put a pair of high heels on and try it sometime.
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-09-16 7:11 PM (#48646 - in reply to #48572)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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And? The point is?
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windwalker2
Reg. Mar 2006
Posted 2006-09-17 3:35 PM (#48667 - in reply to #48631)
Subject: RE: Soring horses



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Sorry I didn't word it correctly.  Like I said, I don't know squat about showing any horse, all I know is what I saw.  Hadn't a clue about what it was called.  Torture would be more appropriate.

Glad to hear that this jerk got charges filed and he was suspended.  I asked a question a few posts ago and no one has answered it, so I'll try one more time.

Is it against the law in this country to sore horses feet?  Or "block" them?  I was just wondering.

 

 

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farmbabe
Reg. Nov 2003
Posted 2006-09-17 3:54 PM (#48668 - in reply to #48639)
Subject: RE: Soring horses


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I have to respond to just one thing in your post- most arabians being too high strung for anything else. As an arabian owner/trainer/exhibitor for many years, this is  pretty much inaccurate as you can get. One reason most arabians are show horses is thats their job but i have seen plenty of rock soild arabians that were once fine show horses.
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