http://www.united-horsemen.org/2011/07/18/veterinarian-horsewoman-k... I have some comments on your intro to this week’s Chronicle of the Horse.You start by saying you don’t agree with slaughter, but this is personal property. If you don’t want me to send my horse to slaughter, come and buy it. I have fed raised and agonized over my horses. I have bought several to keep them from slaughter. How many have you bought from the killer pens? I have several extra, and if I can’t find homes for them, I will be obligated to do something with them. My ads in Chronicle got NO responses…I have raised Zone Champions, and a number of successful sport horses. I cant find buyers for their close relatives.You said slaughter was not humane. How much time have you spent in any kill plant? Do you eat meat? Have you hunted? Have you butchered your own dinner? Your beef and pork are killed within the definition of humane slaughter the same as horses. If captive bolt with trained personnel overseen by USDA employees was not humane for horses, its not humane for beef and pork. For the record I am a DVM. I have spent 40 years as a large animal veterinarian and a good deal of that time as a USDA veterinarian. Cattle kills operate at 200 an hour. Hog plants at 1000 an hour. The horse plants killed something like 18 an hour. Do you think it is more likely that they are humanely treated at 1000 an hour or at 18 an hour? Did you know that the videos PETA and HSUS put together were 20 years old? Do you know what the laws concerning humane slaughter are? Do you know who enforces those laws? I do, that was my job. I took it seriously and I enforced it! I do not respect someone who may not even eat meat, who has never seen a packing plant, who has never seen the slaughter process making incorrect assertions with no knowledge of the facts.As far as transport-we used to be 2-5 hours from a packing plant. Now we are maybe 24 hours. Which is more humane? IS it better so stop and unload every 26 hours? Every trip in and out risks injury. Every time the load is handled, the horses are next to different horses. If they had achieved some sort of detente with their truck mates, that has to be re-established when they are reloaded next to new horses. The trucker or buyer stands the loss for bruises and trim damage. horses injured cost someone money!! I have watched them load horses, they try to do it as well as possible. Many of the killer horses were not halter broke and had never been off the farm, so they didn’t load well. Whose fault is that? Shouldn’t the owner, breeder, trainer do that? If they dump them for what ever reason will outlawing slaughter make them spend more time with their horses? Will it make them into competent horse trainers and breeders? (NO).You said the regulations were not enforced. I submit they were. PETA and HSUS have an agenda-they want to eliminate keeping pets, owning animals, domestic animals, riding, showing and eating them. Their agenda was to start with horse slaughter as it is emotional for many of us. Having succeeded there, they will continue to usurp your and my property rights and our rights to live our own lives. They take in millions of dollars, but spend nothing (1/2 of 1%) on actual care for animals. The rest goes to lobbying, payroll, retirement accounts. Check out Humane Watch on the web.The type of horses most desired for slaughter WAS NOT thoroughbreds-too skinny. They are buying for meat in the cooler, and preferred meatier types. Depending on the CUSTOMER, draft and draft crosses, ponies and western types were most desired.You referred to Ferdinands death in a packing house. His United States owners didn’t want him. They sold him and those buyers no longer wanted him. If where he ended up was a concern, they should have NEVER sold him. (That would shut down many big breeders of all types of horses if they couldn’t sell them.)You refer to low end auctions, all auctions have a low end. There is a range whether its Keeneland, Fasig Tipton, the big Quarter horse sales-look at the bids line by line. The killer buyers put in a bid when no one else would get on a horse. That established the bottom of the market. As a DVM I worked a horse sale every other week for 7 years. The buyers had everything from nice riders to killers. After the sale, they would sort through the loose pens (you know the ones no one wanted to mess with, just dumped off and said “sell ‘em.”)They checked papers and rideability to see if anything could be salvaged for other than slaughter. The killer buyers would sell you anything they had bought at minimal or no profit to see them not go to slaughter. It was just that NO ONE WANTED THOSE HORSES. The auctions bring together a willing seller and a willing buyer. Our local auction closed last fall. Couldn’t make enough to pay the help with the low prices and low numbers. I put two mares to sleep and gave two away when the market went bad. I also put a perfectly healthy and usable horse to sleep the same week for a neighbor. He was an Arabian, she was elderly and could no longer ride him. She couldn’t stand the thought of wondering if he was ok, so she put him down. I tried to talk her out of it, but I do under stand her logic.You then said a bullet was appropriate for euthanasia. Have you ever shot a horse? Have you ever shot a gun? Is a distraught, untrained owner with an unrestrained horse going to know where to shoot, the proper calibre of bullet and keep the horse from moving at the critical moment? Gunshot and captive bolt do the same thing-penetrate the brain and render senseless. Is a bullet ricocheting around a safe thing? Is a gun in the home a good thing with the possibility of theft or misuse by others?I will tell you that lethal injection is not without its problems. There is no FDA licensed drug for equine euthanasia. It does not behave the same in all horses. It does not cause easy death in all horses. It leaves toxic chemicals that make it a risk to render or bury (or leave out for wildlife feed). The drug most often used is pentobarbital. It is being used in human executions in this country. It is not made here, but imported. The makers don’t want it used for that, so will probably take it off the market in a couple of years. We wont have it for horses either, then.In a perfect world, no animal would ever die, no child would ever die either. This isn’t a perfect world. I would not send any of my current horses to slaughter if I could help it. If I had one that was mean, dangerous -shouldn’t I have the right to dispose of my property as I see fit? Should the people who do not have horses be telling the industry what to do with theirs? This is a slippery slope!I hope you can do more research into humane slaughter-what was and what is. I enjoy the Chronicle and you have mentioned my horses when they won, and printed some of my articles…. Thanks for the work you do.
Posted 2011-07-22 5:29 PM (#135976 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Location: KY
Farmbabe, thanks for posting that column. It is extremely well thought out and well written. The problem with HSUS and its ilk is that it is not interested in reality or the truth.
Posted 2011-07-22 5:38 PM (#135977 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 178 Location: Richmond, Ky
makes 110% sense to me, I have seen people try to give horses away and not be successful, only to take them out somewhere and turn them loose to fend on their own ....now what is crueler...die from starvation or to be put down humanely?
Posted 2011-07-22 5:59 PM (#135979 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Expert
Posts: 1723 Location: michigan
I didn't write the article(Veterinarian Horsewoman Kim Houlding) but it expresses my view better than I could have ever written and by someone with first hand knowledge. Feel free to repost this information where ever you see fit.
Posted 2011-07-22 8:17 PM (#135981 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 213 Location: Virginia
I agree - the HSUS is simply a political organization that really does not help animals - and they are too closely tied to PETA. Their president lives in quite a swanky residence - thanks to generous donations of people that thought they were feeding a starving puppy.
The problem with humane slaughter for horses is that it does not exist in the United States. All remaining US plants wers shut down in 2007. Now all horses sent to slaughter go to either Mexico (most of them) or Canada - frequently on double decker trailers not designed for horses. Broken legs/backs and other severe injuries are not unusual. Non-US slaughter facilities DO NOT have the same standards that we in the US have. If you research non-US slaughter houses, you will be sick - some of those employees really enjoy torturing those animals before they finally die - there is very little (if any) oversight. I am not against humane slaughter, but I am against having the animal suffer unbearibly (in some cases for days) before they die.
This statement "shouldn't I have the right to dispose of my property as I see fit?" reminds me of a local radio personality that said it was perfectly fine to toss kittens on a hot BBQ grill and watch them 'dance' (until they died) because they were personal property.
Also, this thread should have been under 'horse talk' not 'trailer talk'. I say that because I would not have read it if it had been under 'horse talk' because of a horrible experience (NOT my choice) I had with a horse sent to slaughter many years ago. I thought this thread was going to be a discussion somehow related to trailers/trailering......
Posted 2011-07-22 9:37 PM (#135982 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Expert
Posts: 1205 Location: Arkansas
Well put. and trailering a shorter distance in a country that has regulations and monitoring, (costing $) is more humane than a long long ride to another country where there is a distinct lack of regulation (regulation and monitoring cost dinero) has caused more suffering than one would ever want to know...
Posted 2011-07-23 5:28 AM (#135988 - in reply to #135981) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Expert
Posts: 1723 Location: michigan
I'd like to to know where you get your information. As the article states quite clearly most of the facts presented by humane organizations are false and refuted by someone who was there and saw what was going on. I have no idea if the slaughter people really enjoy torturing horses...this sounds alot of the crap fed to us that resulted in the ban of slaughter in the US.
Posted 2011-07-23 11:14 AM (#135995 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 213 Location: Virginia
No need to attack farmbab, I was not disagreeing with you. Not trying to feed 'crap' either. I am heavily involved in horse rescue in my area. I have many sources of information and I always look for back up info to confirm if what I saw or read was true. (IE - just because someone states something clearly does not mean I won't go and verify the info for myself - and I do agree - the HSUS puts out lots of misinformation to further their political agenda).
There are people who enjoy torturing animals - just as there are sickos who enjoy beating their spouses. People like that are attracted to an environment where they can get away with it. I NEVER said that all slaughter personnel enjoy it, but some do. I have seen several videos of personnel laughing while they were torturing the horses in some vile way- nearly all were from Mexican facilities and the videos were not 20+ years old - some cars in the background were recent models.
I agree that we should reopen facilities in the US with strict controls/oversight so this does not happen. But more importantly, I think we should look deeper into the problem and try to stop it before it is needed. There are so many BYB's that breed absolute junk that they don't bother to train and end up on these double deckers I got one of my rescues because the parents wanted their children to see the miracle of birth - and then had no clue what to do with the resulting 1,000lb spoiled monster a couple years later (who turned out to be an absolute sweetheart ). I spend many hours educating people who want to breed on the time, money and experience necessary to have a decent horse in the end. (What?? It will be 6 or more years before I have a horse that is experienced enough for my little SuzyQ to win the state championship?!!! And then the horse might not even be good at it?)
Posted 2011-07-23 1:20 PM (#135996 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690 Location: missouri
One possible alternative is educating these stupid backyard junk breeders into STOPPING it. They will run puppy mills/ horse mills/ or people mills to suck money *any amount* from others.... It is why the market has been destroyed. It is why this country is headed downhill like a snowball headed for hell...Hell yeah! open em up, but be humane about it. Around my area, there are these people raising animals of any kind for the $$$, calling themselves "Christians", taking money until the dam is usually shot for non-producing, yet, these same people are against "Pro- Choice" for humans. It is a joke.
Posted 2011-07-23 3:14 PM (#135998 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 165 Location: Western Ar
I don't really see the difference between Horses and cows, they are both livestock. I have horses that i am particulary fond of that will die here on the farm and consider myself to be soft hearted. I do not condone cruealty to any animal and would get angry if I ran across it. the good Lord put these animals here on earth for a pourpose. Now for bashing these back yard breeders while I am not fond of it that is what made america what it is. We do not live in a country that dictates our every day decision(yet) and where do you think that these Championship Bloodlines started from.
The solution to this problem is to get the government out of it and quit passing stupid regulations killing any kind of economic growth. If you are one of these people that think it is unbearable to see a horse go to slaughter then buy the dang things and keep them yourself. You think its cruel for a Mustang to go to slaughter well then adopt them. It is time the Government quit shoving money down the drain on these animals. Let them over populate and then see what happens.
Posted 2011-07-23 3:24 PM (#136001 - in reply to #135992) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Expert
Posts: 3853 Location: Vermont
Originally written by Gone on 2011-07-23 6:45 AM
Being that the plants are closed in the US, why are horses allowed to be transfered out of the country for slaughter?
Because there is no federal legislation banning horse slaughter, it means that American horses are still able to be shipped out of the country for slaughter.
Posted 2011-07-24 4:19 PM (#136035 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Member
Posts: 5
Location: maryland
Let me correct some misunderstandings:First off, the "United Horsemen" is run & funded by people who have vested interests in the horse meat industry. Not the HORSE industry. The MEAT industry. What is good for making cheap horsemeat isn't always good for the horse industry or the American people.
Nobody is stopping any horse owner from selling, leasing, giving away, or humanely euthanizing their horse. The horse is still their property. I am one of those people who visits livestock auctions and buys from the sales. I know what killbuyers want. And the truth is that those horses are not crazy or dying. I have yet to meet a horse out of an auction or killpen that could not be rehabbed and re-homed.I ask you: if these horses are so "unwanted" why do rescues and individuals have to get into bidding wars with kill brokers at the auction? If it's so "unwanted" why isn't it free?
Are horses property? Sure. But in America, like all types of property, there are rules and regulations concerning uses and disposal. Your car, your home, your real estate, even a can of paint all have some regulations on what you can & cannot do with them.
I am a proud American and a proud horse owner. I don't need a hand-out from the Belgian meatpacking company when it's time to euthanize my horse. I afforded buying him, I afforded feeding him while I owned him... I sure as #$%# can afford to either find him a home or humanely put him down. I don't need your blood money.
Here's the reality: Horse processing plants turn out to suck tax dollars out of the community. They depress property values. They pay barely above minimum wage for a high-injury, high-turnover job. They do not give benefits, so it's TAXPAYERS who pay Medicaid and Disability when a worker is injured. They do not have their own sewer plants, so it's TAXPAYERS who have to pay for wastewater plant upgrades when discharges overburden the system. Please look closely at the residents living near the Dallas Crown or Beltex plants for further proof of this.
Posted 2011-07-24 6:14 PM (#136038 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 165 Location: Western Ar
Now I understand why every other town in Oklahoma parts of Texas.Alabama,Mississippi,Arkansas.Iowa,Kansas and Missouri are broke. its all those Chicken,turkey,hog and cattle processing facility's.
Posted 2011-07-24 6:32 PM (#136039 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Expert
Posts: 2957 Location: North Carolina
Point of information. Medicaid does not pay for workers injuried on the job. State worker's comp insurance does. All employeers are required to pay for W Comp.
When ever you hire a contractor to work on your property... make sure there is a valid WC policy. Otherwise the landowner is liable to the injury.
I would believe any large fixed group of workers such as a packing house will be covered. Too easy for the gov't to check.
Now what other pieces of this post are fallacious?
Posted 2011-07-24 9:42 PM (#136043 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Expert
Posts: 1205 Location: Arkansas
I am personally aware of many free horses....the owners just want em gone.........don't know what you do with all that....no body is running in to take em......
Posted 2011-07-24 11:02 PM (#136044 - in reply to #136035) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Expert
Posts: 1877 Location: NY
Originally written by funchy on 2011-07-24 5:19 PM
Let me correct some misunderstandings:First off, the "United Horsemen" is run & funded by people who have vested interests in the horse meat industry. Not the HORSE industry. The MEAT industry. What is good for making cheap horse meat isn't always good for the horse industry or the American people.
Nobody is stopping any horse owner from selling, leasing, giving away, or humanely euthanizing their horse. The horse is still their property. I am one of those people who visits livestock auctions and buys from the sales. I know what kill buyers want. And the truth is that those horses are not crazy or dying. I have yet to meet a horse out of an auction or kill pen that could not be rehabbed and re-homed.I ask you: if these horses are so "unwanted" why do rescues and individuals have to get into bidding wars with kill brokers at the auction? If it's so "unwanted" why isn't it free?
Are horses property? Sure. But in America, like all types of property, there are rules and regulations concerning uses and disposal. Your car, your home, your real estate, even a can of paint all have some regulations on what you can & cannot do with them.
I am a proud American and a proud horse owner. I don't need a hand-out from the Belgian meatpacking company when it's time to euthanize my horse. I afforded buying him, I afforded feeding him while I owned him... I sure as #$%# can afford to either find him a home or humanely put him down. I don't need your blood money.
Here's the reality: Horse processing plants turn out to suck tax dollars out of the community. They depress property values. They pay barely above minimum wage for a high-injury, high-turnover job. They do not give benefits, so it's TAXPAYERS who pay Medicaid and Disability when a worker is injured. They do not have their own sewer plants, so it's TAXPAYERS who have to pay for wastewater plant upgrades when discharges overburden the system. Please look closely at the residents living near the Dallas Crown or Beltex plants for further proof of this.
this is what I was tolled by people living in these areas
Posted 2011-07-25 2:34 PM (#136070 - in reply to #136064) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Member
Posts: 5
Location: maryland
I buy at New Holland. I personally have had to bid against the brokers. If you don't believe me, I'd be happy to meet you there and show you around. New Holland is a favorite haunt for regional killbuyers.
Do you really think a killbuyer looks across the ring, sees what looks like a nicer person bidding, and he stops bidding on the horse to let it go to a good home? Of course not. They have contracts to fill. It's a commodity, not an animal, to them. I personally know some who will bid UP a price if they see a regular rescue person bidding because they see Rescues as meddlers or threats.
Posted 2011-07-25 3:40 PM (#136072 - in reply to #135967) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
Veteran
Posts: 165 Location: Western Ar
I really think there are more than enough horses to go around. But if that is what you want or feel compelled to do you have my utmost regards. And yes like it or not they are a commodity. Just a loseing one. Cattle prices keep going up horse meat may be a viable alternative.
Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
