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too much weight in cabinets

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levie
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2009-02-10 10:02 AM (#99153)
Subject: too much weight in cabinets


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Location: elkhart indiana
I was at a staff mt today at work and we have proto typed a new unit that was over the weight limit. So we were asked to go back to the drawing board and eliminate and ad products concerning weight. it got me to thinking about this thread of people putting in their own living LQs. Now we do not use solid wood throught our units the majority is luon small cleats and then you have your face of the cabnet that is usualy made out of a wraped stile (not solid or not hard wood). the only  thing that is solid is the hard wood doors. now this unit was only 18' long including the bunk so compare that to a GN horsetrailer with a 10' long wall. the total weight of all the cabnets combined, kitchen, bath bunks, reffer, exc. was 1,200lb and that is with cheep thin wood not solid. the weight differece is usaly close to half for solid woodaprox.2,400lb for your 10lq in all solid wood. now if you are hauling with just a half ton truck, it can totaly ruin that truck Even a 3 horse alum with a 10ft long wall with solid wood cabnets would be dificult at times for a 3/4 ton. guess what i am trying to say is watch your weight with your cabnets it can add up quiker than you think and just going with only solid doors and the rest in a cheeper and less weight might just be what you need.
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greyhorse
Reg. Nov 2005
Posted 2009-02-10 10:09 AM (#99155 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets



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The problem with the cheaper non-solid stuff is that it can come apart after a few years, I've seen some that have. I would guess that's less of an issue than it was a few years ago because of the materials becoming better over the years but I still wouldn't trust it. You are right about the weight however, the solid wood is much heavier.
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brushycreekranch
Reg. Jun 2006
Posted 2009-02-10 10:29 AM (#99158 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets





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Location: Central Arkansas

I had several trailers that had the cheaper and lighter made cabinets. They did not hold up well and were very hard to repair since you can't just sand and restain them. But, there was a upside to them...a dog crate rubbed the side of a cabinet and the wall. I was able to do a quick fix by using the simulated oak Contact Paper (TM). It matched perfectly.

Weight is not an issue to me so I prefer solid built conversions. I like my LQ to look like fine handcrafted furniture and not like a cheap truck camper. It does cost more up front but the trailers seem to hold their value much better.

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levie
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2009-02-10 10:30 AM (#99159 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Location: elkhart indiana
yes it is cheeper i work with it everyday and their is downfall to it but their still is alot of RVs out theirthat are 15 years old that have the same cabinets in them as they do now and look just as good, it is how you take care of them. now for my home of course I wouldnt have anything less than solid cabnets. or I guess if I had one of those mini semie I wouldnt wory about the weight, or even a 1 ton duelly. and yes the cheep stuff has goten alot better over the years. another thing I find so intresting is lets take a 35' rv verses a 35 foot horse traler. the difference in price is down right crazy. RV price 53,000.00 with everything including 3 slides!!! a 35' horsetailer with nothing in the back but stalls,15' lqs and 3 slides  $150.000.00.And yet the RV still has a moter!!!But maybee when I retier i can get one!!!
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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2009-02-10 11:54 AM (#99163 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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It's been my experience that the reason the RV type of cabinets are heavy, is because of budget constraints. It is much less expensive to build a carcass and shelving out of MDF and wrap it with a covering, than it is to use a multi-ply laminate with hardwood veneers. Inexpensive cabinets sold everwhere, use the common sawdust and glue as their material choice. Upscale cabinets still are available with plywood carcasses. 

In custom aircraft and marine construction, where weight issues are critical, and moneys spent are through the roof, you will commonly find light weight construction with every type of exotic woods being used. Core materials that are constructed of various types of expensive honey comb materials, are then veneered with many finish materials. It is not uncommon for a 4' x 8' sheet to weigh only a few pounds and cost many hundreds of dollars. Curved panels are constructed and laminated to fit specific installations.

A 3/8" piece of Baltic Birch is as strong as a 5/8" or 3/4" MDF panel. It will weigh less, hold fasteners over time which particle board won't, and yet it will be rejected as a construction material, because it will cost twice as much to purchase.

The weight issue is the result of bean counters, trying to make the highest profit while using the least expensive materials. Lighter materials cost more than the heavier ones they replace. It is strictly a cost issue, born by the manufacturers and consumers alike.

Gard

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levie
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2009-02-10 12:33 PM (#99165 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Location: elkhart indiana
i understand that concept but looking at the exact same material being used the price difference is when you run the same sheet of aluminum per sqf as the rv. and the only difference I see is Just the cabnets. The same appliaces, the same slides, the same windows everything even the decking they use for the floor. the same grannit tops The furnature is from the same vender I use.  Like I said the only difference is the cabinets.  So I took a look at our top of the line models Class A. all built to custom Solid cab and upgrade everything even a jacuzzi!!!! and our top price on that unit with 3 slides 239.000.00. so i tried to find the eqiv. horse trailer. yet with half the living space and only 2 slides brand new 339.000.00 no moter and no jacuzzi!!!! Im just saying I am amused at the difference in per Sqf price.  I guess we buy so much product that could make a difference in price but I wouldnt think it would be by that much. I just find it interesting.
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horsey1
Reg. Dec 2004
Posted 2009-02-10 1:13 PM (#99167 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Levie- How much difference in construction techniques. Having watched LQ horse trailer construction, there's a ton of walking through the door. Are the RV folks able to build much before the walls are installed?
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Tresvolte
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2009-02-10 1:49 PM (#99169 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets




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Levie - I watched a special one time on Discovery channel or something. It was really interesting. Watched them build a motor home....upper end brand, but can't remember what brand now. They limited to one or two floorplans, which made all of the cabinets, or most of them, the same size and shape. Everything was set in through the top, and then the roof was put on. I have seen the trailer interiors built also. Everything comes in through a 30" door. Would that have much to do with it? Then also that the trailer is built to withstand a horse...and I have looked at RVs that coudn't withstand my kids. Sorry but true.
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brushycreekranch
Reg. Jun 2006
Posted 2009-02-10 2:11 PM (#99171 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets





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Location: Central Arkansas

Levi wrote: "but their still is alot of RVs out theirthat are 15 years old that have the same cabinets in them as they do now and look just as good, it is how you take care of them. now for my home of course I wouldnt have anything less than solid cabnets."

Hello..... RV trailers don't torque going down the road like a LQ trailer loaded with a few thousand lbs of  horses moving around in the back!



Edited by brushycreekranch 2009-02-10 2:21 PM
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levie
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2009-02-10 2:42 PM (#99175 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Posts: 42
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Location: elkhart indiana
in regards to how it is constructed it is on a line and you have different departments for each stage that it goes through from chassis prep to final finish. we have 21 stages for instance are walls and roofs do not go on line untill 1/2 way down the line it makes it easer to get all the plumbing done and electrical without having to be in tight areas. I can see were that would save money and time. but I am talking about the actual price of product when i know exactly what i pay for it then I read about a person on this forum looking lets just say a awning, too have a new awning put on your trailer by a "RV specialist" for a standard awningthey will pay between 800.00 - 1,200.00 to buy and have it installed. my point is I can buy that awning with hardwear for 293.00 and it ony takes aprox 1 1/2 to put on. I have put penty of awnings on. and yes I WORK IN ELKHART INDIANA AND YES THAT IS WEAR THE PRESEDENT JUST HAD HIS SPEACH FROM. WE ALSO HAVE QUIT A FEW HORSE TRAILER MANUFACTURES HEAR ALSO. I HAVE WORKED FOR THEM ALSO. AND ALOT OF THEM RUN THEIR PRODUCTION LINES THE SAME. UNFORTANITLY RIGHT NOW ELKHART IS A VERRY SAD TOWN RIGHT NOW MOST LIKLY ALOT OF WHAT YOU ALL SEE IN YOUR LQS ARE MADE RIGHT HERE NOT ALL BUT MOST FROM THE TOILET PAPER ROLLS TO THE AIR. AND WE HAVE 27 DEFERENT FLOOR PLANS AND UNFOTANETLY NOT ONE CABNET IS THE SAME IN ANY COACH. THIS IS WHAT ELKHART IS MOSTLY MADE OF. MY POINT IS LIKE MY GRANDFATHER WOULD SAY WE HAVE ALL THE OIL WE NEED IN TEXAS BUT ALL THE DIPSTICKS ARE IN DC! MY POINT IN ALL THIS IS WE AS CONSUMERS ARE BEING CHARGED SOMTIMES OVER 80% OF COST WITCH IS JUST SAD, WHEN A COMPANY ONLY NEEDS 40% TO MAKE ANY MONEY. AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE BIG TRUCK TO PULL THE TAJMA HALL DONT BUILD IT.
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levie
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2009-02-10 3:03 PM (#99177 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Posts: 42
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Location: elkhart indiana
 SORRY i FORGOT TO SAY SOMTHING ELSE  IDO KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO HALL FIVE HORSE AND KNOW WHAT TORGE IS ALL ABOUT. THIS WAS A DISCUSION ABOUT WEIGHT IN A TRAILER AND PRODUCT AND PRICE. NOT RV VERSES HORSETRAILER. WHEN I DO GO CAMPING WITHOUT THE HORSES,THE FUNNY THING IS i TAKE MY HORSE TRAILER BECAUSE I CAN LOAD EVERYTHING UP LIKE FIREWOOD AND FOURWEALERS. I WAS SIMPLY STATING THE DIFERENCE IN PRICE. NOT QUALITY OF CAMPING. AND THE WAY THE ECONOMY IS RIGHT NOW ALOT OF JOBS ARE ON THE LINE. I AM A CONSUMER ALSO AND JUST HATE TO SEE PEOPLE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF.
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reinergirl
Reg. Feb 2007
Posted 2009-02-10 3:06 PM (#99178 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets



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I think you are missing the point, most often the largest cost of a horse trailer LQ is in the actual construction of the horse trailer, not the LQ. Horse trailers are built much tougher than any RV and as a result have more raw material cost than a similar RV.

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levie
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2009-02-10 3:39 PM (#99183 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Posts: 42
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Location: elkhart indiana
NO HORSE TRAILERS DO NOT HAVE MORE MATERIAL COST THAN A RV i HAVE PURCHASED FOR BOTH MANUFACTURES MY INVENTORY ON A HORSETRAILER WOULD AVRAGE A BILL OF MATERIAL OF APROX 2100 DIFFERENT PART # AS A RV BILL OF MATERIAL WITCH IS 3600  THERE IS ALOT MORE THAT GOES INTO A RV BECAUSE OF THE ENGINE FROM DIFFERENT HARNESS TO GA LINES FUIL FILL EVERY THING. BUT THEY ARE MADE MORE STURDIER IN THE HORSE COMPARTMENT ONLY TO HAVE EACH CROSS MEMBER (FLOOR STRUTS) APROX 17- 22 INCHES APART THAN A RV FROM THAT CAN RANGE FROM 16- TO 31" THEY ALSO USE MORE THICKER GAGE ANGLE IRON AND THICKER I BEAMS. THAT DOES NOT MAKE UP FOR 100.000.00 NOR DO AL. SIDE WALLS VS GELCOAT WALLS. BYTHE TIME YOU ADD IN THE LUON AND THE HOT MELT GLUE AND THE LABOR OF PRODUCING THAT WALL. THE PRICE COMES OUT THE APROX THE SAME. AS FAR AS WEATHER IT IS STRONGER WELL OF COURSE! IT IS BUILT ALOT BETTER IN THE BOX. BUT THE PRICE DOES COME OUT CLOSE.  lETS JUST TAKE A TRAVEL TRAILER IT DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A MOTER AND YOU CAN GET TOP OF THE LINE GOOD TRAILER 35, 000.00 TOO BAD WE COULDNT GET THE BOX OF A HORSE TRAILER AND THE PRICE OF A TRAVELTRAILER LQS.
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brushycreekranch
Reg. Jun 2006
Posted 2009-02-10 4:44 PM (#99187 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets





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Location: Central Arkansas

A few years back, I remember a guy in IN that said the same thing about buying a really nice RV trailer cheaper than a horse trailer. He sold his big LQ trailer and bought him a fancy new toy hauler 5th wheel. He then had a 3H straight load container like what the airlines use made that he winched into place in the back. He hauled his mules in it on a short trip but then hauled a car or 4 wheelers to AZ several times. He quite trying to talk us all into his way of thinking. Maybe he realized that it was not his smartest idea.

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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2009-02-10 4:56 PM (#99188 - in reply to #99178)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Originally written by reinergirl on 2009-02-10 4:06 PM

I think you are missing the point, most often the largest cost of a horse trailer LQ is in the actual construction of the horse trailer, not the LQ. Horse trailers are built much tougher than any RV and as a result have more raw material cost than a similar RV.

At one time I considered purchasing a LQ shell and having a conversion company install an interior. The interior's quoted price would have exceeded the cost of the trailer.

When you factor in the additional cost of a running gear, engine, transmission, rear axle, steering components and the suspension, which by themselves are all very expensive elements, it is difficult to justify a head to head price comparison.

Gard

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Tresvolte
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2009-02-10 5:06 PM (#99189 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets




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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain...
I don't think anyone was trying to pick a fight with you or knock what you are doing. You asked the question and got some answers. Sorry you don't like them. I know the weight of my lq trailer without the interior is more than most RVs. Before interior it's weight was 9800 pounds. The interior added another 5500 pounds. I have also seen wrecked horse trailers and wrecked RVs and they DON'T hold up the same. The cost of my horse trailer was one and a half times as much as the interior. Most of the trailers that you see at 150,000 plus are very custom. Kills the advantage for the manufacturer to run them down a line. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.
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Tresvolte
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2009-02-10 5:10 PM (#99190 - in reply to #99188)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets




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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain...
Originally written by gard on 2009-02-10 4:56 PM

Originally written by reinergirl on 2009-02-10 4:06 PM

I think you are missing the point, most often the largest cost of a horse trailer LQ is in the actual construction of the horse trailer, not the LQ. Horse trailers are built much tougher than any RV and as a result have more raw material cost than a similar RV.

At one time I considered purchasing a LQ shell and having a conversion company install an interior. The interior's quoted price would have exceeded the cost of the trailer.

When you factor in the additional cost of a running gear, engine, transmission, rear axle, steering components and the suspension, which by themselves are all very expensive elements, it is difficult to justify a head to head price comparison.

Gard

It is hard to justify a head to head comparison...same reason we don't do head to head comparisons on mobile homes and custom built brick homes. Same reason we don't compare cars and trucks. They don't serve the same purpose.

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levie
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2009-02-10 5:53 PM (#99194 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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again if you read i was not comparing the streangth of the rv verses the horse trailer. and yes there is a comparison on a travel trailer material (apliances) sofas exc. when you buy a horse trailer raw and then have it custom built for you. you are paying 80% more for the product. Yes it is more custome to what ever you want but Everything except for your color of fabric and wood it is the same. Jenair, Dometic, Carfree, Onan, Generak,. now I know it is alot harder to build a living qtrs with a door of 30". and depending on weather or not you cut down the tree yourself to make the cabnets. and when ever you have somthing custom you are going to pay a little more for the extra time and effort. Their is a huge mark up on the product. I'm sure I'm not making freind with the conversion people. but it is a outstanding mark up. What is the average price per sqr ft for a up grade conversion on a horse trailer? has anyone had a estimate done? well a good home is between 100.00 -400.00 per sq ft.
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Ben P
Reg. Feb 2009
Posted 2009-02-10 8:53 PM (#99208 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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TPenning
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2009-02-14 9:20 PM (#99483 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Interesting posts.  We started off with a note about keeping weight in mind while building an LQ, and then went on to the cost difference between horse trailers and RVs.  Might as well stick my oar in the water, too...

I AGREE that there is quite a difference in the price between horse trailers and RVs, whereby it appears that you get everything including a hot tub in an RV for half the price of the horse trailer with LQ, which is not nearly so luxurious.  I too have commented on how strange it is that the trailer that is basically empty for more than half it's length would cost twice what the other does.  I've just decided that the manufacturers have us over a barrel here -- they have discovered they can charge us this much, and we will pay.  That said, I have found an increasing number of friends are buying themselves a nice used motor home and a tag along trailer and are paying HALF what the living quarter unit would cost, and are quite happy with this set up.

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Rose66
Reg. Dec 2006
Posted 2009-02-15 11:57 AM (#99493 - in reply to #99483)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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I've thought many times about buying a small motor home and pulling a 4H BP behind it. The main disadvantage I can think of would be that you'd have to drive the motor home if you wanted to run into town for something you forgot or to get a meal at a nice restaurant. Whereas with a truck and trailer you can simply unhook the truck and off you go.
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wyndancer
Reg. Apr 2007
Posted 2009-02-15 1:58 PM (#99497 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Once you start to look at the distance from the rear wheels to the hitch...and the accompanying "tail wagging the dog" you'll rethink a 4 horse behind a small motor home.
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gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2009-02-15 1:59 PM (#99498 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Without a spotter, backing a BP trailer with a motor home, is most difficult indeed.
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gabz
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2009-02-15 6:55 PM (#99509 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets



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I totally understand what Levie is saying about the weight.

It was a big consideration in how I have been doing my 4' shortwall area. I have found some great cabinets and drawers from the SunCast Company that I used. They are resin and super large and have latches on the cab doors. While it may not be super deluxe wood-working and I'm disappointed that I couldn't find a drawer that matches the color of the cabinets, (I may spray paint them), they are very practical and lightweight.

Suncast makes all those great patio benches/ storage units and hose reels. They also make a great line of cabinets for Sears - for organizing the garage.

I have also been contemplating the use of automotive suppliers to create modular resin/ cast units that could be installed aftermarket into horse trailers.  It would require that the trailers have insulation and interior wiring etc., done first.  I can always dream.

If only .... 

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levie
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2009-02-16 8:29 AM (#99542 - in reply to #99153)
Subject: RE: too much weight in cabinets


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Posts: 42
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Location: elkhart indiana
that was all I was trying to say is just be carfull on your weight. some people get into it not Knowing what their weight is going to be after everything. and then they find their selfs in a bind when the truck can't hall it. I think that isa a great Idea!! We need to be able to offer consumers some safe and more effecient ways of doing living qtrs, That could be afordable for everyone. I do love the look of the custome solid wood like everyone else they are so beautifull but it is just not fesible for everyone. As far as the cost versing both sides of the fence. their is a huge difference!! I have a couple of friends that do hall Class A triple slide and pull a 4 horse slant loade behinde. Now I would be scared to death to do that but they get along just fine.
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