Posted 2009-01-08 5:53 PM (#97166) Subject: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Veteran
Posts: 241
The truck is a 2008 duramax 3/4 ton crew cab short box. The trailer will be a 22 foot Hart stock combo with a 6 foot weekender in front. The local trailer guy said some put on air bags and other dont. The bags are only $500 buck so its not a huge deal but I don't want to get them if they are not needed.
Posted 2009-01-08 7:37 PM (#97172 - in reply to #97166) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 2453
Location: Northern Utah
Let's see. A 22 foot hart with a 6' LQ.. Probably a 3 horse in that length. I suspect you will will about 13,000lbs loaded.
25% of the total weight on the pin will be 3250 lbs on the gooseneck ball.
I suspect that you will be really close.
But hey lets talk about all the neat stuff you can do with Air Bags.
the fellow that bought my trailer last summer, backed up under the hitch, using a back up camera with a DVD screen in the dash. Stopped at the perfect spot. Hit his air bag compressor and lifted his bed up until the ball connected. Hop'd out of the cab and raised the jack. Put up his tail gate and drove off. Says he does the same thing with bumper pulls and a second camera in his bumper.
Now I'm not that technology up to date. But I did use my air bags to lift my trailer higher to give me extra clearance for the black water tanks when I'd get in some rough stuff.
So regardless of whether you need the additional load capacity, The air bags can help, level the truck, raise and lower the bed as needed.
Posted 2009-01-09 9:36 AM (#97190 - in reply to #97166) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA
The following is a previous posting to a similar question:
There are different ways to alter the load capacity of your truck. They have all been mentioned in these threads, How they are used and installed will greatly affect the over all performance of your truck.
Your truck's suspension is the culmination of countless hours of engineering, computer wizardry and practical on the road experience. Manufacturers have spent millions of dollars in research, to provide a vehicle that offers the best compromise in ride and load capabilities. And it is just that, a compromise. One conclusion is not the best for everyone's needs.
A suspension has many functions, it has to carry the weight if the vehicle and occupants, provide a pliable platform of varying loads, and allow the tires to remain in contact with the road, regardless of irregularities of the surface.
Trucks typically have a set of springs that provide a variable rate depending on the load. An initial stack supports the truck under an empty or lightly loaded rate. Auxiliary or a secondary stack springs offer additional support as heavy loads are applied.
If additional springs are added to the primary stack, the handling of the vehicle can be adversely affected. This is usually not attempted unless these springs are worn or broken. If additional leaves are added here to increase the load capacity of the truck, they will stiffen the rear suspension. In an unloaded state, the resulting rear suspension can be stiff enough to be effectively without a suspension. With little or no suspension travel, any bump, or rut could literally bounce the rear tires off the pavement. The active suspension and abs would be rendered useless, braking would be severely compromised, and you would have a dangerous, uncomfortable truck to drive.
The overload springs are what should be modified. These are only involved when heavy loads are applied to the suspension. The point where they are activated vary by the weight capacity of your truck. Usually a deflection of four or five inches will be involved. This is the distance your initial suspension travel has to work in day to day driving. By adding varying amount of springs to this secondary stack, your load carrying capacity will increase. There are many companies that offer varying amounts of springs for this purpose.
Air bags and Timbrens are not added to the springs. They are added between the axle and frame. The air bags supplement the original suspension, adding to its capacity as increasing amounts of air pressure are added to the bags. This is accomplished by manual applications using a supplementary air hose, or more complex systems that offer stand alone load leveling systems, with on board compressors, limit switches and all the necessary plumbing.
Timbrens are basically a supplement to the truck's original axle bumper, that prevents the axle from slamming into the frame when it is severely deflected. A Timbren is a hard rubber cylindrical structure that keeps the axle and frame at a predetermined distance. With my truck's secondary springs, the "helpers" just start to aid when enough of a load is applied to make the truck"squat" four or five inches. The Timbrens are installed so that they also touch the suspension components at the same time.
The result is that the initial factory suspension is unchanged, and a normal unweighted ride is effected. When additional weights are added, the suspension will no longer deflect, unlike air bags or overload springs. This result will continue regardless of any additional loading. The only exceptions are two: a structural failure of the suspension components caused by a gross overloading; the failure of the tires caused by the same overloading.
All of these components, the springs, air bags and Timbrens are time tested components. If installed correctly, they will all aid in increasing your truck's capabilities and handling while loaded.
Posted 2009-01-09 9:50 AM (#97193 - in reply to #97166) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C.
I'll be the "odd man out".... Seems to me if you're having to add extra springs (air bags, timbrens, helper leafs, etc.) then you are a little shy on truck to begin with....
Posted 2009-01-09 10:56 AM (#97199 - in reply to #97166) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 2453
Location: Northern Utah
As a kid in the late 60's we bought cars and jacked them up. I remember learning about problems this caused. I can still hear my dad telling me " Detriot spent millions to design that suspension and you spent $5 at the corner parts store to Screw it up"
I'll agree with Retento. Air bags are not going to increase your trucks load capacity. If your truck is not rated to carry the load capacity, Buy a bigger truck.
If your trailer weighs to much for the springs, it's probably also over capacity for the axles, lug/lugnuts, tires etc. Adding air bags to help the springs out doesn't strengthen your axles or bearings etc.
But airbags do add some versitility to what you can do with a truck. I run my airbags at 15 psi. So they barely affect my stock suspension. But as I mentioned, if I get in place on a forest service road where I'm going to drag my sewer system under the trailer over a rock in the road. I can gain an extra inch or two of clearance by boosting my bags to 70 psi. And ever since I watched that fellow pick up a trailer with an air bag, I've been sold on not having to crank a jack up or down in order to hook up a trailer. I hook up a flat bed equipment trailer, a dump trailer almost Daily. Some times several times a day. In the winter when it gets muddy and nasty on construction sites. It's so nice to back up to a trailer to the perfect spot on the first try, inflate the air bags and pick up the hitch with out gtting my feet in the mud.
Same thing with my horse trailers. Pull into a camp site. Not quite level, inflate the air bags and help level the trailer
Now in order to do this you need the optional compressor in addition to the standard air bags. But this also gives you a onboard compressor to inflate flat tires, inflate air mattresses etc.
Posted 2009-01-09 1:20 PM (#97206 - in reply to #97193) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 1416
Location: sc
Originally written by retento on 2009-01-09 9:50 AM
I'll be the "odd man out".... Seems to me if you're having to add extra springs (air bags, timbrens, helper leafs, etc.) then you are a little shy on truck to begin with....
Flame suit on, light the torches!!!
I wouldnt go that far, seems like these late model 3/4 and 1 ton pickups are softer sprung than the ones I used to drive. Too much double duty I guess.
Posted 2009-01-09 1:39 PM (#97208 - in reply to #97166) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C.
chad... Seems like the late F250 and F350's are the worse. Several friends of mine have them and they all have added some type of aux. spring. I guess alot of the F350's 13000# GVWR is up on the front axle. I have backed under heavy hay trailers that leveled my 3500 Chevrolet out, my buddy backs under with his F350 and the head lights are aimed up in the trees until he get the wind back in the bags.... Unloaded My truck rides better that his..... Go figure.
Posted 2009-01-09 2:18 PM (#97210 - in reply to #97199) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Veteran
Posts: 241
I've been sold on not having to crank a jack up or down in order to hook up a trailer.
I am going to get them for this reason alone. I already have a camera on the BP hitch, I will probably get this one mounted on the tool box and point it right at the GN hitch. Very cool.
Posted 2009-01-09 3:18 PM (#97214 - in reply to #97210) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas
If you are buying them just to raise and lower the truck to hook up. You will be better off installing a electric or hydr. jack.... I had a set on the 97 F-350 I just sold and it would raise and lower the rear about 2" or so but not enough to help with hooking up my trailer. The set I have on my 07 Dodge only raises and lowers the rear maybe 1" total.... I would install them for a more stable ride while loaded and not as a hitch helper.
Posted 2009-01-09 3:29 PM (#97215 - in reply to #97193) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas
Not the fact of being a little shy, it is all about a more stable ride. Anyone that knows newer GM trucks knows that there springs are softer than most other on the market, that is why when you hook up a trailer most set down on the overloads right away.
I tested this myself on Wednesday, sister inlaw has a 2005 Chevy 3500 extended cab daully D-MAX with 25-k miles that I was doing service work on and I thought I would give it a try since there has been so much talk on here about them and I have never drove a D-MAX loaded. The Sundowner in my picture is a 2004 8010 Signature 3 horse and weights around 9000-k or so. As soon as I drop the trailer the truck rear springs went flat. Drove down our FM road about 9 miles to the interstate and came right back home. Truck has good power, transmission is the best, but the brakes (or whatever GM calls them) are MAJOR LACKING in that department, to say the least! Had to set my trailer brakes way up to stop this package and I was unloaded.
Posted 2009-01-10 10:50 AM (#97249 - in reply to #97215) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385
Location: washington
I drive a 99 Chevy 4x4 LT with xtra cab. It's got a 6.0 liter motor and towing package. I pull a 28' (full lenght incl GN) 2H GN with 9' Sw LQ... Kieferbuilt. Dryweight is claimed to be 5300. I travel a lot spring through fall, all across the Northwest for endurance rides. I haul a couple bales of hay, grain and portable corral in the first stall, horse in the last stall plus a 39 gallon corner horse water in the rear tack. The trailer pulls great and rides like a dream... whether the trailer is loaded or empty, it really squats my truck when I lower the jack onto the truck. That is why I have considered the airbags, to get the truckbed up and relieve some pressure on the springs. A friend has a Ford 3/4 and pull a 2H bumper pull with a camper on the truck and needs them ... she also uses the airbags to help level the camper when we arrive at ridecamp and are parked on uneven ground... all I can do at that point is drive up onto my trusty 2x6 planks to level out :)
Posted 2009-01-10 3:49 PM (#97259 - in reply to #97166) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Veteran
Posts: 241
I have priced the air bags and found they are roughly $500 bucks, about a $1000 bucks if the compressor is included which will allow you to adjust the ride without having to manually add air. I guess my next question is, how do the bags hold up? Do they ever pop are get leaks?
Posted 2009-01-10 4:30 PM (#97260 - in reply to #97166) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA
If you are not buying the airbags for their load height adjustability, you might consider the Timbrens. They do not change an unloaded truck's ride. They require no maintenance, plumbing, compressor or adjustments. They always provide the exact load ride height you choose, regardless of the load's weight. They eliminate spring swaying when hauling, and will not allow a heavily loaded suspension to bounce or porpoise when going over a wash board surface.
I can always count on the same ride height and the truck's attitude, regardless of which trailer I tow. There are no headlights in the sky when hauling, nor wash board jitteries and a harsh suspension when empty.
Installed, they are a fraction of the price of airbags and a compressor. I've had ours in service for many years, with absolute reliability and with no maintenance needed. I would not consider hauling with any truck, without their installation.
Posted 2009-01-10 6:22 PM (#97266 - in reply to #97260) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385
Location: washington
Gard - can you explain again exactly what the Timbrens are and how they help with truck squat without causing any stress to the truck frame and or springs. That sounds like it may help with my truck's squat. I don't have a problem hauling or stopping but don't like that big squat when I lower the trailer and can't help but feel it isn't as safe as it could be.
Thanks!
Posted 2009-01-10 9:06 PM (#97273 - in reply to #97266) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas
I will try and give you my version of them until gard gets here. I have them on my 98 Chevy 6500 series rollback wrecker. The ones I have look like rubber beer cans and mount between the frame and axle same way the airbags mount.
Posted 2009-01-10 9:20 PM (#97275 - in reply to #97259) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas
I would check around on prices, the ones on my 07 Dodge was $350. without the compressor. The compressor is just up to the person. I have never installed one and really never had the need for it. I check them everytime I fill my truck up along with checking the tires and keep 70psi in the bags all the time, this seems to work out great for my setup.
As far as holding up, I have had 4 sets and the only problem I ever had was on my 97 F-350 the retard that installed them mounted one backwards (they have mounting holes for different trucks) and the frame rubbed a hole in the side of the bag. But I guess that wasn't bad, they had over 100-k miles on them before that happened.
They will leak just like tires, mine avg. a few pound per month, before I started checking them every fill up.
Posted 2009-01-10 9:36 PM (#97276 - in reply to #97266) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
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Posts: 1416
Location: sc
Originally written by cowgirl98034 on 2009-01-10 6:22 PM
Gard - can you explain again exactly what the Timbrens are and how they help with truck squat without causing any stress to the truck frame and or springs. That sounds like it may help with my truck's squat. I don't have a problem hauling or stopping but don't like that big squat when I lower the trailer and can't help but feel it isn't as safe as it could be. Thanks!
I have Timbrens on my pickup. Timbrens are a rubber spring that is larger than, and replaces the factory bump stop. They are cheaper and simpler than airbags, although they can not be adjusted like an airbag. Take a look around their website, http://www.timbren.com/timbren-application-guides/chev-gmc.htm
Your 99 probably takes the same kit as my 05. They work well, but they will affect the empty ride. When installed per the instructions there will be ~1" gap between the Timbren and the axle..........the axle moves more than 1" when empty in normal travel. When the 1" is used up you will hear/feel the axle contact the Timbren. Some people find it objectionable, I dont care the truck rides like crap anyway.
Posted 2009-01-10 9:41 PM (#97277 - in reply to #97266) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA
Originally written by cowgirl98034 on 2009-01-10 7:22 PM
Gard - can you explain again exactly what the Timbrens are and how they help with truck squat without causing any stress to the truck frame and or springs. That sounds like it may help with my truck's squat. I don't have a problem hauling or stopping but don't like that big squat when I lower the trailer and can't help but feel it isn't as safe as it could be. Thanks!
Here's some photos, product availability and pricing. My Timbrens have a 6k# rating, my factory over load springs have a few hundred pound rating.
Posted 2009-01-10 9:55 PM (#97279 - in reply to #97276) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA
Originally written by chadsalt on 2009-01-10 10:36 PM
Originally written by cowgirl98034 on 2009-01-10 6:22 PM
Gard - can you explain again exactly what the Timbrens are and can't help but feel it isn't as safe as it could be. Thanks!
They work well, but they will affect the empty ride. When installed per the instructions there will be ~1" gap between the Timbren and the axle..........the axle moves more than 1" when empty in normal travel. When the 1" is used up you will hear/feel the axle contact the Timbren.
I have my Timbrens set so that they do not contact the axle, until the tips of the helper springs just touch the main springs. This is approximately a four inch deflection of the main spring pack. Once the factory helpers just touch, along with the Timbrens, the full affect of the additional suspension is then realized.
So in my case, the above quoted statement is completely untrue. The stock empty ride is unaffected in any way.
Posted 2009-01-10 10:08 PM (#97280 - in reply to #97279) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
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Posts: 1416
Location: sc
Originally written by gard on 2009-01-10 9:55 PM
I have my Timbrens set so that they do not contact the axle, until the tips of the helper springs just touch the main springs. This is approximately a four inch deflection of the main spring pack. Once the factory helpers just touch, along with the Timbrens, the full affect of the additional suspension is then realized.
So in my case, the above quoted statement is completely untrue. The stock empty ride is unaffected in any way.
Gard
Which kit/what year Ford do you have that allows them to be "set"? My kit allows for ~1" or zero clearance.
While my statement may be "untrue" in your case, she appears to have basically the same truck I do......so you may see the relevance of said statement.
Posted 2009-01-10 10:20 PM (#97282 - in reply to #97280) Subject: RE: Do I need airbags on my truck?
Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas
Originally written by chadsalt on 2009-01-10 10:08 PM
Originally written by gard on 2009-01-10 9:55 PM
I have my Timbrens set so that they do not contact the axle, until the tips of the helper springs just touch the main springs. This is approximately a four inch deflection of the main spring pack. Once the factory helpers just touch, along with the Timbrens, the full affect of the additional suspension is then realized.
So in my case, the above quoted statement is completely untrue. The stock empty ride is unaffected in any way.
Gard
Which kit/what year Ford do you have that allows them to be "set"? My kit allows for ~1" or zero clearance.
The set I have on my wrecker that have adjustment holes to preload the helper spring if needed. I have them set with about a 2" gap when unloaded, so when I put a truck on top the wrecker will just touch the Timbrens, then when I load a truck on the rear is when they really cone into play. Or I can change holes and set them to make contact faster if needed.