Has anyone used this method and had success with foundered/navicular horses??

Have been reading alot on the subject and it sounds very interesting, but would love to hear from some firsthand users.

Stablemom

If you have a founder/navicular problem horse, I highly recommend that you consult with Dr. Murray's clinic at Pell City, AL. 

The "natural" trim is simply a balanced trim taking the conformation of the foot into consideration.  There is nothing natural about trimming a horses feet.  They don't have pedicures in the wild. 

I just joined this group   http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/barefoothorsecare/  to get more info on this topic.  Very interesting. 

NM Rider... I am in CO. What was the name of your farrier and do you know where he moved to?

lindszo---He left here about a year ago.  Issac Kerr, he said something about moving to the Pagosa Springs-Wolf Creek area.  But I don't know if that is where he went.  A friend that races horses used him and gave me his name.   He is real good, I was sad when he left and its been difficult to find another good farrier.  Trying a new one today.

In the wild, horses travelled many miles over rough terrain. That managed to keep their hooves "trimmed " but also in the wild, horses that went lame usually got eaten or died from starvation,dehydration...they didn't survive long enough to reproduce. There is nothing different from a well balanced hoof trimmed by a good farrier and those who promote a natural trim...since if they are using tools its not "natural". 

"natural" trims will not cure a navicular horse( there are many natural trimmers who make such claims) however, if the hoof is well balanced and properly trimmed or shod for that particualr horse, it will help a great deal plus good veternary medical care. I would assume that a foundered horse is in the same boat- good hoof and vet care will help but in some cases, if enough damage is done, you can't fix it.

a friend of mine is currently dealing with a horse that has navicular in booth front hooves. The horse is big boned, straight shouldered and smallish hooves...a navicluar horse bulid. She has tried natural trimmers with little success. She has the horse on a variety of supplements as well as injections. She has been able to keep the disease from progressing and has gone back to a conventional trimmer just to get a well balanced hoof ( the natural trimmers had done a poor job) We can only wait and see how the horse progresses over time.

What EXACTLY is a natural trim? Why does it differ from a NORMAL trim? The feet need to be balanced and trimmed according to the conformation of the foot, right?

My NORMAL farrier has never left me with a lame or "off" moving horse after trimming.

yeah, I thought on the same lines as most of the replies here, however I found the info on the Ramey website and the pictures very interesting. Also, have a friend that has a pony that was foundered in all 4 feet and soundness has been restored thru this method.

This mare was diagnosed with navicular changes 3 years ago and we have kept her comfortable for most of the time. She has not been seen by Dr. Murray but by another well known vet, Dr. Harrington in Pelham, AL.,Dr. Pat Garrett from Montgomery, now residing in East TX., and others. She currently has a slightly elevated aluminum shoe on the worse foot and a regular aluminum shoe on the other. I have spent countless dollars on all the reccommended supplements, shoeing, etc.... that vets have suggested, so why not give the Ramey trim a try.

She currently gets around fine, (most of the time) no better no worse. Walking on concrete makes her tender and uneven ground when being ridden, which is very rare. She is just not real fun to ride, but was an incredible calf horse and loved every minute of it.

If I try it, I think that I will keep a diary and let you know how things go.

Thanks for the feedback!!

I agree with Farmbabe    

    "I asked my farrier- whats the different between a regualr trim and a "natural" trim...the answer..about 20 bucks"

Seems to me a good trim is a good trim, period.   balance the foot according to the way the horse moves and it's conformation, whether for wearing shoes or staying barefoot. 

Pete Ramey was a regular farrior before he started the natural horse trim.

Go to his website and do some research before you just write it off.

There is a difference in how the foot is trimmed using this method. I am not stupid and would not pay $20 bucks more for the same trim that I have been getting for many years. I have 7 horses and am only considering this for one of them. The others have no issues being shod and trimmed the conventional way.

Thanks for all the encouragement!!

The natural trim doesn't pare any of the sole out.  in fact they usually don't touch the bottom of the sole. They want the sole to be as thick as possible.

A natural trim will put some kind of roll  ( often refered to as the Mustang Roll) around  the edge of the hoof. By not having a squared edge on the hoof wall you prevent the hoof wall from chipping or breaking off. I have watched  regular farriers pull shoes for the winter and put on what they call a pasture trim. But it is much straighter on the edge than what a Natural Trimmer will do with his roll.

A natural trim usually makes sure that the bars are shorter than the hoof wall, So they don't carry weight at the same ratio as the hoof wall.

You will do a natural trim much more frequently than a regualr trim.  I trim my barefoot horses every 2 weeks. 3 at the max. If I go 4 weeks, I start to get flares.  You want to keep that hoof wall pretty level with the edge of the sole.  If you go longer between trims the hoof wall will grow out and start to flare out and you  get a seperation on the white line.

Farmbabe,

I asked for info. from those who have tried this method and had first hand experience with it. Both good and bad.

I didn't ask for people's opinions of what they thought about it!!

StableMom, I have never had a founder'd or Navicular horse. So I have no personal experience curing either. So I can't answer your question about using this method to cure those problems. One of the two barefoot trimmers I use claims she has had great success working with those problems. But I've not seen it first hand.

I have kept my horses bare foot for the past 3 years. I have started to learn how to do my own trims.  At first I would alternate trims with my farrier, where he would basically true up or correct what ever I did on he inbetween trim. I'm getting more confident in my abilities and had my farrier out twice this year. I did all the rest of the trims.  I can ride almost ANY where for a day ride barefoot.  I just can't do 2-3-4 day rides barefoot with out the horses getting a little ouchie. This fall in preparation for Hunting, I put shoes on my two geldings. They seem a little more sensitive to rocky trails than my two mares.  Maybe because they weigh more being larger horses, maybe because they carry my larger body mass while my mares usually carry my lightweight daughters. They preformed much better in shoes than they had on previous rough rides. I'll pull the shoes for the witner an dmaybe try Sole Guard next spring.

My mares I tried the Vettec Sole Guard on their feet and it did very well at protecting them on the rough trails. It only lasted about 15 days.  But got the horses through the worse of the fall hunting rides.

Painted Horse-have you tried the Easy Boots, or Old Mac boots for your rougher terrain?

acy-I guess just "old school" and most of us don't like change.

Farriers have been taught to pretty much flatten out the foot (sole) so the shoe will fit and lie flat. The natural horse trim leaves more of a concavity at the sole. If you were to hold a ruler across the hoof, the sole would not touch the ruler. This allows the coffin bone to suck back up into the concavity of the sole for greater protection. At least, that is how I understand it to be.

I am going to try to see if it makes a difference, if not, then I can always go back to shoes. Tried everything else.

Not so much looking for a cure, but a horse that is more comfortable.

I have destroyed a lot of Easyboots.  They probably work just fine for folks who are doing gentle rides. But they just don't hold up for serious back country rides like I do.  As I said, I can ride anywhere barefoot for one day. The challege then becomes doing 2-3-4 days in a row of hard riding. So I bought boots and have used them.  I break the buckles or cables on the Easyboot Epics, I converted all my Epics to BARES and I've had less problems, but I've still broken some of the bungies that hold the BARES on.  And I've had more BARES come off ( since the bungie doesn't hold as tight as the buckle/cable) and then the Gaiters rip. I got tired of paying to fix boots every time I went for a ride. And worse than the money was the fact, that I get 10 miles back into a wilderness and the boot would come off and be unuseable. I'd have to finish the ride with out any hoof protection.

There are lots of folks who use Easyboots and they work very well for them. But I don't think they ride as rough of trails as I do.

This is what a pair of boots looked like when I got back from a 10 mile ride.

WOW!!!

Sounds like you do a number on them! HA!

It was suggested that we purchase some of the Epics for our mare to ride her in at first. Doubt we would be on the type of terrain that you seem to encounter, but sure want them to last. They are quite expensive!

I've been using a farrier that trims using the Pete Ramey method for the past 3 years with great success.  I'm in South Fla so we don't have the kind of rocks in other parts of the country, but we do have alot of cap rock.

A very good friend has a 20 year old QH mare she's had from birth and had been shod all 4 feet her entire life. Around age 16 she went lame and was diagnosed with navicular in 3 out of 4 feet. She started doing a lot of research and started using a natural trimmer.  She did have her injected about every 6 months for several years and has learned to trim her mare's feet herself. She used various different boots on her front feet when riding and over time has improved dramatically.  I don't know if she's had more x-rays done, but she is able to trail ride and camp with her mare and is convinced that the combination of the natural trimming, use of boots for support, and injections has cured her mare of navicular.  If you want to email me I will send you her email and you can discuss it further with her for first hand experience.

There's no guarantee with any method, but you are right to explore options as  we all want what is best for our horses.  I feel an open mind is one that can learn of new methods and other alternatives as there isn't one cure all for lameness issues. 

I agree that there is no one size fits all treatment. If your pals horse was trimmed properly, no matter the method, in combination of injections and boots, its very possible the horse can remain sound longer but never cured. If the horse does better with shoes, then shoe him. If he workes better barefoot, the let him go barefoot. Its not the method BUT if the hoof is properly balanced ( given the horses conformation and other variables)in conjunction with vet care( injections or supplements) and possibly shoes/boots working together can help.

The friend I mentioned in a pervious post was using a "natural trimmer" because they said they could make a horse sound. After three tries with three different "natural trimmers" she switched to one who can only be called conventional and the horse looks better BUT they also increased the frequentcy of injections. hard to tell what actually worked, the meds or a balanced foot- my guess is its the combination of the two.

Stablemom- my first hand expereince was many years ago when this Natural trimming thing got started ( at least in our area) the fad was to square off the toe since that what wild horses tend to do naturally. I didn't question it but was a bit curious when i noticed it since the farrier at the time never did such a thing. The horse was dead lame the next day. I guess thats a natural response to bad trimming. Anyway, I never used him again.

It all comes down to doing what you think is best for your horse no matter what the method is.