Since this is an extremely active group of folks, I would like to find out your opinions on the following:
I have been asked to explore the possibility of filing a lawsuit, requesting class status for the plaintiff(s), asking the US/USDA to allow horse slaughter (for human and/or animal consumption) to begin. The basis for the suit would be that the US/USDA (and State of Illinois) took/diminished the value of the plaintiff(s) property (horses) without compensation by the closure of the slaughter plants, and thus impeded interstate and international commerce.
Posted 2008-10-16 11:48 PM (#93181 - in reply to #93175) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 378 Location: Nebraska
Good Luck with that. But if you really wanted to win. First you would have to change public opinion outside of the horse industry. The majority is always rewriting the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. Then there is the funding by the USDA for inspections (a very small reason for the closures). You would be up against the Ill. A.G. Lisa Madigan and Assistant A.G. Mary Welsh and 1000's of pro bono lawyers. There is judicial precendents that will be citied. But all in all I'd say you have a better chance of walking on water.
Posted 2008-10-17 11:24 AM (#93197 - in reply to #93175) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 1881 Location: NY
I am not a lawyer so let me get it right. the people want to suit because the price of there horse drop because the slaughter house closed? do i have that right?
Posted 2008-10-19 8:57 AM (#93232 - in reply to #93197) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 2958 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by loveduffy on 2008-10-17 2:36 AM
I am not a lawyer so let me get it right. the people want to suit because the price of there horse drop because the slaughter house closed? do i have that right?
No ... The purpose is to allow the horse owner the option of sending his property (the horse) to slaughter.
Posted 2008-10-19 3:50 PM (#93239 - in reply to #93175) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Location: KY
Also the regulation of horse import and export. The current pending legislation would make it illegal to export a horse for the purpose of slaughter for human consumption. I guess slaughter for pet food is ok. So that would open up a whole nest of problems, and it would not have saved Ferdinand, since he was sold to owners in Japan who wanted to breed him etc....and only later was he sent to slaughter. Unless, the people who sold him were supposed to predict the future in order to avoid criminal penalties for themselves. Transport and slaughter can be done in a humane way. If there were slaughter plants located regionally, then transport for long distances would not be necessary.
And it is an issue of the right to be let alone by the government. The govt does not allow us to send horses to slaughter. (The last plant in IL is gone.) So what is next? Maybe the govt will mandate that a horse must be kept in a six foot high 5 rail vinyl fence with free access to a 12 by 12 stall....... Perhaps the govt will tell us that we may only ride in a certain type of saddle.......and use no bridles, only hay strings.....
Yes, I have taken the reduction of freedom to the point of silliness, but the point is, once the govt starts regulating horses, where does it end?
Posted 2008-10-20 9:26 PM (#93315 - in reply to #93175) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 1881 Location: NY
ok now I got it .but if the slaughter house and transportation of horse were more human then they would be no problems. why is it that cattle are transported with out scratch on them and horse are beaten and etc ????
Posted 2008-10-20 10:02 PM (#93318 - in reply to #93315) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 2828 Location: Southern New Mexico
why is it that cattle are transported with out scratch on them and horse are beaten and etc ????
Aside from PETA who said they were beaten? The way I see it is the problem is that people romanticize the horse and think of it as a "pet" not livestock. There may be some bad shippers out there that will "beat" an animal to get it to load or move through a chute, but why would anyone believe that they would be limited to horses? If you go to any stock yard you will see that they use cattle prods to get the cattle to move.
Posted 2008-10-22 11:32 PM (#93448 - in reply to #93318) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 1881 Location: NY
I agree that PETA is way out there, but the fact that cow's hide is worth more then horse hide so what they( horse) looks like dose not devalue the animal. over loading the trailers. etc seems to be limed to just horses. I feel the same way about cattle . when was the last time you heared of a cattle trailer over turning??
Posted 2008-10-23 6:10 AM (#93459 - in reply to #93448) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 420 Location: Iowa
yeah, PETA is WAY out there. The problem with loading horses like cattle...Horses fight each other. Plain and simple. And yes, Cattle trucks and Hog trucks turn over. We just had a Hog truck turnover here in Iowa not too long ago. Driver fell asleep and hit a bridge gaurd rail, over half were killed. 4 days later another Hog truck overturned, 3 miles from where he loaded them. Drove to close to the shoulder and it pulled him in. Over half were killed. Accidents happen.... We still need to do away with the Horse Slaughter ban.
Posted 2008-10-23 9:33 AM (#93468 - in reply to #93459) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 1881 Location: NY
the accidents do happen the two you write about are driver error but most horse trailer accidents are from over loading. horse are bigger and the do fight with each other, then they(shippers) should take that in consideration when shipping I know cost of shipping is high but if horse meat over seas is so high then they could pass the cost on like every other producer dose. yes I think unwonted horse need a place to go but until they could get there safely
Posted 2008-10-24 8:11 AM (#93527 - in reply to #93175) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Member
Posts: 39 Location: Michigan
I would say that the lawsuit may just be like peeing in the wind, if you will.
But at least, it would possibley shed some light on the issue for some people and get the issue out there more.
It is such a shame that something so well intended(the slaughter ban) has turned into something really much worse than slaughter, the amount of starving horses out there is just alarming. And the sad thing is, that many times, at the sales around here, these starving horses are sold from one owner who cannot or will not feed their horses, to another. Horse prices are so low that someone who could not afford to buy horses before, now can, even many horses, but that doesnt mean they can afford to take care of them. And so, too often those horses are just in a vicious cycle of going from one owner who cannot or wont take care to another, and then back to a sale and so on, over and over. Believe me, I do not like the thought of horse slaughter, but i do think it is better than a horse starving.
We have a rescue that we purchased at a sale this year. He had been dropped off at a big auction in IN. just left, then stood in that barn for over a MONTH, hauled to Michigan, went through a sale, bought by some SOB who continued to starve him and brought back to another sale. By the time we saw him, he was so dehydrated and thin, he could barely hold up his own head. The sight of him was horrific. And we knew, no matter what, that horse was coming home with us. This is a horse that would have gone to slaughter, no doubt. He is a huge belgian gelding. He can no longer work hard, so he was just not worth to feed to someone I guess. It took us 8 months to get him looking "good". He still has a ways to go, and will never be 100%. He is our angel, our baby, and he will stay here for the rest of his life. But not enough of these horses get another chance like him. If he were not here, I would rather see a horse like this put down, than go thru what he was going through. He lived in an endless hell. He had no life left in his eyes. He was just blank, I cannot even explain to you the shape he was in. Thankfully, today, he looks good, feels good and is loved. He has a spark now, and is happy. He can even be a little nuaghty now and then.
Maybe with your lawsuit, you could show people what is going on with these horses. Good luck!
Posted 2008-10-24 10:35 AM (#93537 - in reply to #93527) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 1881 Location: NY
a friend of my brought a rescue horse and he got real mean ( could not blame the horse ) my friend call m to help now the horse is a happy and love people again it took two years to get him to this point. some people just look the other way you should be proud that you saved this one
Posted 2008-10-26 7:21 PM (#93679 - in reply to #93175) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 316 Location: Illinois
Might work if you sell your horse for $250 or less when you might have gotten upwards of $350 from the killers for something like a 16+ hand thoroughbred or quarterhorse, providing you were relatively close to one of the slaughter houses. Otherwise you'll have to sell your horse for less then that to seek compensation from the old slaughter prices previous to the end of slaughter in the USA, which is less to cover the expense of having to haul them to Canada or Mexico. Don't worry, horses are still going to slaughter. Mine never will, but that was never an option.
Right now the reason you can't sell the average trail horse for anything is because board and feed is sky rocketing and people are finding you don't have to feed things like snowmobiles, boats and motorcycles in the off season. (maybe you could include them in your lawsuit?) If fuel costs get too high, they can leave it parked in the garage. Now, if you have a proven show horse that is honestly worth $20,000 or better, the rich people are having few issues with the economy and still want to and can compete. You are losing a lot of your middle class horse people as we are finding ourselves with less spending money then we had even two years ago. As of November first my horses board will have gone up $65 each in about two and a half years. (OK they are cutting me a small break with my old guy since I buy all his grain. Can you believe Equine Senior has doubled in price in about 8 years? Ugh. He's so lucky I love him to pieces. :D ) I really need to find a home for that little bay that wasn't supposed to be mine. :-/ Ironically, I saw one of the high priced show barns in the area, the name escapes me now, they ahd an ad in the local Horses Mouth which I left in my work truck, had lowered their board presumably as they are finding themselves with not enough boarders. Funny how that works, isn't it?
In anyway, I wouldn't give PETA a goldfish as any animal you give them they will likely euthanize it. They have something like a 95% kill rate. There are people that should sue them after entrusting them to find a home for their pet during hard times only to turn around and euthanize it likely before they made it to the parking lot. Evil they are.
Posted 2008-10-29 9:08 PM (#93911 - in reply to #93175) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 522 Location: Tucumcari NM
If you think that the government has a stranglehold on livestokk owners now, just wait until they mandate microchiping for every animal in the country. The proposed regulations are unbelievable. I already have to have a USDA license to breed chinchillas. You would not believe the headaches involved in obtaining that license. Believe it or not, I can't leave a bale of hay uncovered in my climate-controlled steel barn. It must be stored in a covered, rodent-proof container! Ditto with the pellets and dust bath material. During the last USDA inspection of my facility the inspector was concerened because there were cobwebs in the corner! I guess my chinchillas are adversely affected by cobwebs which are out of reach and out of sight of their cages. If the proposed regulations are allowed to pass into law I will not comply. They can come get every animal on my place. I wonder who will feed the nation when all the small farmers are driven out of business by all the nonsense.
Posted 2008-10-30 6:35 AM (#93934 - in reply to #93175) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 1205 Location: Danielsville Georgia
Horses nervous system much differant then a cow or pig.They get frantic and a lot of damage to themselves and each other.Plus colic.Their nerves can't take it.Have a friend that is involved in stud barns/breeding facility he called me wanting info on a Brindle colored stallion .Said very rare .Anyhow horse came to him starved and dehydrated he might die .Anyhow this horse was mentioned year before in Americas Horse(AQHA) or the Journal. I read the article.It was about the color and this very horse was mentioned .Is gentle,broke to ride etc .Someone put in a stall somewhere and left him without care for days on end.I talked to the breeder whom was very upset he ended up this way.She sold him several years earlier as a yearling.Anyway best I could tell is he's not likely to pass on Brindle color etc.More then likely was heading to another Saturday nigh sale.I think THOUSANDS are going through similar ordeals.
Posted 2008-10-31 11:39 AM (#94032 - in reply to #93941) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 1881 Location: NY
I am a feared that if the abuse dose not stop the government will step in and take control like they did the walking horse ,all horse people should be a feared of this, this is what they (the controller) people are waiting for, the horse inderstey to imploded on it self then all they have to do is pick up the pieces
With the economy struggling and the buy-back/no bid rates at Thoroughbred auctions rising, the issue of unwanted horses is a growing concern. Antony Beck, president of Gainesway Farm in Lexington, decided to try to do something about it, by sponsoring an adoption service on the Web site of The Blood-Horse's sister publication, The Horse.
The site will allow Thoroughbred owners to list information about horses they are willing to give away free to good homes in the United States.
"It's a sad, but a very definite situation that we're facing," Beck said. "A large number of Thoroughbreds are going to be taken out of the breed one way or another, and it would be wonderful if they could go out of the racing orbit into the show horse or pleasure horse worlds. This is a way we can save a lot of lives."
Because The Horse focuses on providing equine health information for all breeds, the Thoroughbreds offered through the adoption service will be exposed to a large and diverse audience of horsemen.
Listing for FREE Thoroughbreds on TheHorse.com
Any registered Thoroughbred, of any age, is eligible to be placed on this database of FREE horses. Visit Add A Horse to add a horse or Horses Available to view horses seeking new homes.
We recommend anyone giving away a horse, whether to a private individual or a welfare/rescue organization, learn as much as possible about that person or group prior to giving the horse away. There have been unscrupulous individuals and groups who take horses under the pretense of giving them good homes, then sell them for slaughter. (See article "Rescue Highlights Danger of Free Horses".)
Beck also would like to see auction companies advertise in equine publications outside of the Thoroughbred industry because "there is going to be a tremendous opportunity to get some really good Thoroughbred blood for very reasonable prices" in the coming months or even years.
More than 5,800 Thoroughbreds are cataloged to the Fasig-Tipton and Keeneland mixed sales in November in Central Kentucky. All but 189 of that total (including one late addition) are in the Keeneland auction.
According to Keeneland's director of sales, Geoffrey Russell, his company is taking a "wait and see" approach to the situation, but he praised Beck for seeking a solution to what could become a very big problem.
"We commend Mr. Beck for trying to find alternative markets for these Thoroughbreds (that aren't considered commercially viable), and we think it's a great idea," Russell said.
During previous Thoroughbred market downturns, people buying horses for slaughter and broodmares to join nurse mare herds shopped at the lower end of the Kentucky mixed sales. But the $1,000 minimum bid at both Keeneland and Fasig-Tipton was designed to make horses too expensive for slaughter buyers, and it also probably will shut out nurse mare owners as well.
In addition, there no longer are any horse slaughterhouses operating in this country, which makes buying horses for human consumption less financially feasible.
"What happens to the mares that don't get sold is something that we are going to have to address," said Mill Ridge Farm's Bayne Welker, who is the president and chairman of the Consignors and Commercial Breeders Association.
"My guess is that some of these horses will get pushed off into regional markets where there are good state-bred programs and people can get some breeders' bonuses if those mares can produce good runners. I can tell you the issue has been discussed with Geoffrey and Chauncey Morris at Keeneland, and I've brought up the idea that maybe we could do package deals for emerging markets with some of these mares that don't get sold, so we can make sure that they get homes."
Because of overproduction in the Thoroughbred commercial breeding industry, "the market won't take care of every horse," said Kitty Taylor of Warrendale Sales. "People have to have a plan B. They have to be willing to say, 'OK, this mare is coming out of production, and I'm either going to find a good home for her or she's going to live in my back field, or I'm going to donate her to the University of Kentucky or whomever (for research).
"Everybody is really going to have to start thinking about what they are going to do. It's very sad for me as a person who loves horses and loves animals, but I would advise a client with an older horse, if they can't care for that animal anymore, to euthanize it. Don't let it go down a route in life that is going to be distressful or damaging or a bad way to live, because once you let them out of your control, that's what can happen."
The Humane Society of the United States recommends humane euthanasia performed by a veterinarian as an alternative to slaughter, and some equine veterinary practices are offering low cost euthanasia clinics. In a recent survey conducted by TheHorse.com, 89.1% of the readers who responded said low cost-euthanasia clinics should be widely available.
"If there are as many horses not sold as we fear there might be, there needs to be some serious discussion about what to do next," said Dan Kenny of Four Star Sales. "The solutions run the range from rehab farms that are supported by the industry all the way to euthanasia. When you have to take horses back (after they fail to sell), you do the best you can to get them placed somewhere else, which is fine if you're dealing with a handful, but I think we are going to be dealing with significant numbers."
John Stuart of Bluegrass Thoroughbred Services believes only a limited number of the lowest-priced sale Thoroughbreds will find new homes with people involved in other areas of the equine industry.
"The sport horse people want a special kind of horse," he said. "They want something that has the looks, the soundness, and the temperament they like, and they buy those horses, which are really nice ones, for good money privately off the racetracks long before they would ever hit the sale ring.
"If you just want a horse to ride, there are all kinds you can get for free. I fox hunt, and every day on my e-mail, there are messages about horses that I could have if I would just go and pick them up."
Posted 2008-11-03 10:18 PM (#94199 - in reply to #94197) Subject: RE: Horse slaughter lawsuit?
Expert
Posts: 2828 Location: Southern New Mexico
"It's a sad, but a very definite situation that we're facing," Beck said. "A large number of Thoroughbreds are going to be taken out of the breed one way or another, and it would be wonderful if they could go out of the racing orbit into the show horse or pleasure horse worlds. This is a way we can save a lot of lives."
Great idea, but now they will be competing for homes with the horses that are already in the show horse or pleasure horse worlds and displacing those so it really won't save lives.
Horse slaughter lawsuit?
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