Hi,

I have a friend who is a parelli person.  I'm curious if anyone from the Forum is familiar with this method.  I'm hoping someone can help me understand whether my friend is following the methods prescribed or if she has used the methods to allow her horse to take advantage of her.  I've witnessed her on several occasions load her horse in the trailer.  She used to (her horse loads much better now) spend around 45 minutes to load her horse.  She would stand in the trailer with the rope and wait until her horse decided to get in...no pressure what so ever.  The rope would be completely slack.  Her horse seemed really bored the whole time and I believe he's finally loading better because he doesn't want to stand half in and half out of the trailer for 45 minutes anymore.  Does Parelli not encourage the owner to have any dominance over the horse?

I recently went riding with my friend and we came to a wooden bridge.  I was riding a 2 year old, so I allowed her to go ahead.  Well, after her horse (who's 7) refused, she immediately got off.  She doesn't believe in using spurs or whipping her horse to get him motivated to go forward.  She proceeded to work with the horse for 50 minutes.  I starred in silence the whole time.  She stood on the bridge and waited.  Her horse stood off the bridge and looked extremely bored.  Every once in while he would put foot on the bridge and then back off.  She always allowed him to back up and off again.  There was never any pressure and it seemed to me that the horse was the one really in charge.  The horse finally walked across the bridge, but only after wasting my time for 50 minutes.  I'm certain the horse would have walked over the bridge within the first 5 minutes if she would have actually lead him across...meaning she took control of the horse and asked him in an assertive way to obey.  He was never asked.  He was given the opportunity to decide on his own. 

I've witness this horse on numerous occasions bite other horses, kick other horses, paw at his owner (in fact the very next day after our trail ride he pawed my friend in the arm).  Not once when I witnessed any of this behavior has she ever really punished him in a way that equals the crime.  He's got terrible manners and I believe he's getting away with all of this because his owner, my friend has taken the parelli method a little too far.  I just can’t believe someone would endorse allowing the horse to be the “top-dog”.  Thoughts from the group? Thanks, Natalee

Yup. and your friend will be loyal, loyal, loyal to the "Carrot Stick" methods, so trying to convince her otherwise will be wasting your time.

Sounds like many kids we all know. right?

On another board we chatter about how so many Parelli-ites spend hours everyday with their horses but they never ride them. The fact that your friend is actually riding the horse is a good sign. 

I'm not impressed at all about the results that most people get using Parelli methods and I'm also not impressed with their disregard for other people and horses.

On the other hand,I have taken two of my horses through the Level I Games and I found that it greatly improved their respect for me.And I DO ride my horses.

BTW,Saddlebredlover,are you by any chance the same gal that posted a lot on YouTube not long ago?

Not meaning to insult you,but,I and a former trainer had several arguments with someone with your user name over whether or not Saddlebreds were trained with artificial methods such as pads,ect.

Just watching your friend attempt to train an ill-tempered horse using Parelli methods that isn't working for her is really no reason to judge the entire Parelli training program.She's not a professional trainer,and,I've been to 3 of their seminars,also have attended John Lyons,and Monty Roberts.None of these trainers endorse allowing a horse to behave in the manner you have described,i.e.,pawing at her arm,I can assure you.She just hasn't gotten her bluff in on him yet,and he hasn't "got it" yet that she's the one in charge,because,she's not made it clear enough.

Ask Pat Parelli yourself in an email on his website,or any of his trainers,if they endorse or allow a horse to use aggression freely as part of their training program,and you'll get your answer.

crowely ridge girl... I do want you to know that I also know of a few people that are excellent graduates from Parelli experiences; but I have seen more that are not - in particular those who have their first or even 2nd horse and think they can train it themselves.

As you have attended other clinicians, I'm sure you will agree that it takes sorting out of what you learn to make a good horse person that is capable of teaching/training their own horses.

I should not have lumped all "Parelli-ites" into one stereotypical jumble.

Crowleysridgegirl,

No, I am not the person that posted stuff on YouTube.  Many many years ago I did professinally train saddlebreds and yes, we did use artificial methods to get them to do what they do (never soaring, though, that's Tennessee Walking Horses)...I'm not poud of what I've done to some horses, but I don't do that anymore.  I am literally a saddlebred lover, because I own a 19 year old retired fine harness horse, but also have a barn full of QH's.  I have changed my ways and work hard to be more natural with my babies.

My post wasn't to bash the Parelli Method.  I'm sure it works as does other training methods.  What I want to know is if anyone (who studies under parelli) agrees with this process of waiting until the horse decides to load in a trailer, cross a bridge, cross a creek etc.  I told my friend after the 50 minute training experiment was over, that I totally disagreed with her training and she assured me that her "instructor" would be so proud of her.  Come on...please tell me this can't be so?  From my point of view, her horse has bad manners...the kicking, biting and pawing because in situations like the bridge crossing and trailerload epidsodes she never shows any dominance over her horse.  He's always in charge and is complete spoiled.

Gabz - you're also right about parelli people not riding...My neighbor only just started riding her horse after I moved in next door.  She hadn't ridden him for at least 2 years!

Can anyone else chime in on whether this is extreme or not?

I personally think some folks take it a little too far.  After all this is a 1200 lb. animal who could harm me if it does not respect me.  I have seen Parelli; watch Clinton & Chris Cox on TV when I have the chance.  I like little things about all the different trainers, but I believe some folks become so involved and passionate with one way that they can not accept that their way  not the absolute best.   I also know people who  have quit riding their horses to "concentrate" on groundwork.  OK with me but no riding for a year or more seems a little extreme.  If you want a great trail horse you must put it on the trail.  I believe groundwork is important first, exspecially for younger horses.  Riding and experiences builds trust and confidence for you and your horse.  I used to always hear folks say the "all that horse needs is some wet saddle blankets".  With the methods you are referring to it doesn't sound like there is much trail experience going on.

It also sounds like your friend is letting her horse pick the battles he wants to fight.  Bottom line he wins.  He gets to choose when he crosses that creek, bridge or gets in the trailer.  I know that obstacles can be hard, but letting your horse take 50 minutes to cross a bridge without really trying to get him to cross it is inconsiderate of your friends.  I agree with not beating or spurring a horse to death.  But, I think asking them repeatedly with a little leg pressure is not mean.  You are a better friend than I.  The heat and humidity in GA is so bad that there is no way I would have waited 50 minutes for her to cross that bridge.  I probably would have suggested we choose another trail without the bridge to cross.  Giving your fellow riders a chance to train on the trail is a great thing to do, but not really trying to establish a safe, respectful relationship could be costly in the future.  I also think you should think of your fellow riders.  No one wants to spend half the ride waiting on someone to cross the creek - especially if all they are going to do about it is stand in front of it and wait on the horse to decide whether or not it is something he wants to do.  I think it is Clinton Anderson who says horses think about three things - eating, sleeping and doing nothing (not working).  The quote may be wrong, but I think it's true for a lot of horses.  I have a great trail horse, but given the opportunity he would much rather eat than work.  Most horses would. 

I hope your friend works out her issues and finds a way (whomever's method it may be) to have a respectful relationship with her horse. 

Spooler and tom tom- I agree with you both and would like to add parelli isn't doing anything original at all. He just knows how to market his tapes,clincis,equipment..etc...

I watch when i can but overall, I can't stand the drippy/sappy overtones of the parelli group. Sorry but thats chick stuff.

I was just saying that when I was at parelli's seminars,I didn't see them standing in a trailer waiting for the horse to decide he wanted to load.Heck fire,I don't know too many of them that are going to come on in,and if they are,I sure don't want to be standing in there waiting on them .I think that's really dangerous.I know that trainers/clinicians such as John Lyons,Clint Anderson,and a lot of the others would agree on  not letting a horse be the boss.I don't think that the girl is really doing a whole lot of Parelli actual training,just some things that touch on it.Yes,it's always funny and informative to watch the "boss lady" mare.We have one in our group.she is 18.I noticed that she,and the next one down the line,her daughter,have had no problems teaching our 2 yr old gelding just how close in he can come.Matter of fact,I notice most of the time there is a GREAT distance in the pasture from him and these two mares.He thinks he has his bluff in on me,can run right up in my face,follow right behind me breathing down my neck,and get mad and wheel around and take off,kicking up both hind feet,when he's not getting fed and my confined filly is.He wouldn't pull that crap with "the old lady," tho! Same difference,he's just not quiet figured how far he can go with me yet.I have "Parelli'd" him too,but,not with a carrot stick,and not stroking him with it,either.I take my lunge whip out there with me,and if he gets in too close,he gets stroked,all right.I'm not about to go about it the long way around and get hurt or killed waiting for him to figure it out while I'm whispering.

PS I really like Julie Goodnight as a clinician.

Good for you,girl.Some Saddlebred trainers do sore their horses however.I'm glad you have "gone natural" with your fine horses.They don't need artificial aids.

His wife,"hot stuff" Linda,is probably the one responsible for the drippy/sappy overtones.She's the one that marketed Pat and brought him out in the open to start making all the do-re-mi.

well I just messed up that quote business. 

CRG you are dead on re current wife. Former wife Karen was not that way, altho they still use her photographs in the book.  The newer editions also have toned down some of the rhetoric such as deleting "gunsel."

I've never heard anything about his former wife,although I've seen his son at one of the seminars.

My husband says something to the effect of" he's got himself a hot tamale there" and "she latched onto daddy-o" that kind of talk,you know men.

BTW,what is "gundseal"? Is that one of Linda's terms?

I noticed that the second version of Level I had brought in some psychologist to add in her take on how people learn.That's a big deal,apparently,for Linda,she's got a thing for knowing about how people learn.I have always wondered,what the -  does that have to do with training a horse??

CRG

by and large it's not the horse that needs the training;  it's the people.  If you can find an early edition of the Parelli book published by Western Horseman, you will find it way less polished than the current package.....the current mrs is the marketing guru....

I first became aware of the Parelli thing before the current mrs.  In the book, Parelli made statements such as if one could not mount a horse bareback from the ground  then that person should not be riding.  I remember it vividly because I was 42, learning to ride a horse for the first time ever in my life and I had to use a mounting block.  If I had taken his book to heart, I would have quit right then.  But I did not, and well, the rest is history. 

In the original edition of the book, Parelli came across as a rude arrogant redneck chauvinist jerk....now that is just my op.....and as I said, the later editions of the book have been toned down or polished up.....because you cannot sell something to someone you just offended.

I saw the current Parelli show about 2 years ago at the Shelby Showplace arena (Memphis).  CRG, they had EXPENSIVE stuff that would FIX any problem anyone had...if they just had enuf money to throw at it.  And the whole show is designed to SELL the stuff. 

The only reason I went was some friends had some free tickets, 'cause ya no, I would not have paid to see a sales pitch.

ooooohhhhhh  I do sound cynical.......sorry  (NOT)

As far as watching a trainer, I am much more impressed by a trainer who is not pulling a tack trailer, and not trying to sell stuff.  Again just my 2 bits.....

Yeah,I get your drift.I DO have that older book by Pat before the English blonde mrs.came along.I remember reading what he said about mounting bareback.I thought,"Yeah,right,buddy,let's see YOU do it." WHich might not be so hard for a guy Pat's size,getting on one of those short legged wide backed QH's.

I thought they were a couple of nut cases when I saw them jumping picnic tables,ect.without bridles,saddles,that would not be so bad in itself,but,no helmets.Bad examples,IMO.

I liked the stuff for sale,not necessarily the programs even tho I have Level I (which I've used with success as I said) and Level II which I haven't used .What I liked were the clothes! And liked looking at those O'Farrel hats!!!

I remember approaching Pat at his table,and asking him if he rode any gaited horses.He looked up,and said,"Sure,I'll ride anything with hair and a tail." My husband and the man behind us sure didn't miss the humor in THAT.

I'm sure he thought it was funny too,getting one "over" on this old country gal. Myself,I thought it was a little out of line.My sense of humor obviously wasn't the same as his that day tho.

While none of these 'natural trainers' are my cup of tea....They don't allow horses to just stand there all day. If the horse doesn't choose to do as they ask in a reasonable amount of time they make the horse do something it doesn't prefer to do. Usually running around in a circle. So, your friend does not seem to 'get it'.

I think these people are masters at making money and one Parelli follower once told me that Parelli's program would 'make a person into a horseman'...I don't believe that at all.  Most of the techniques these trainers use, especially Parelli, are for use as tools during normal training. They are not necessarily meant to be the end product and are also meant to be used by thinking horsemen when they are training their horses. Some people never really do understand horses regardless of how hard they try. These are the one's usually following one of the Guru's as was stated earlier....

Happy trails

I have met Pat in person a couple of times...he is still an arrogant A--  JMHO.  I do like the show they put on (some of it anyway) but he was just not very nice when he was "greeting his public".