Ok, my haflinger/belgian mare will be 5 this year.  I worked hard last year getting her to neck rein.  I ride on a loose rein nearly all the time, mainly because she's very slow and laid back....except when other horses go to pass her or she's not in the lead.  Then we have what I call "seabiscuit-ism" and she will do anything possible to get back in the lead...where she does well, crosses anything, goes at a safe pace, etc.  BUT I really want to go back and fix this "seabiscuit-ism" and the only way I can think to do it is to spin her in circles/do lateral flexion when she goes to get speedy or try to pass.  I really don't think I can get the necessary control with a neck rein.  She doesn't spin like a reiner, she's a cloddy half draft.  My question is....if I take her back to a snaffle and direct rein her will I lose all my work I've done on neck reining and confuse the snot out of her?  I really like having a free hand for my beverage when I trail ride.  I also like that Daisy can lead, but gosh, if she's leading and god forbid we come up on another string of riders she will do anything within her power to catch up and overtake them...if I hold her back she will get frustrated then just "pop"!   I think that if I get her busy in circles and side to side, I could re-direct her (or cheese her off even more, not sure yet) but I think that a neck rein cue might be ignored in this case.  My shanked bit is NOT what I want to rely on for direct control, but I'm leery of regressing to a snaffle.

Thoughts?

Amanda

With neck reining, you are asking your horse to move his shoulder in - for example, in order to go right you ask your horse to pick up his left shoulder and leg and move diagonally toward the right.With direct reining, it is my understanding that (and this is what I visualize) that you are asking the shoulder to step out somewhat. If you want to go right you are directing the right shoulder to follow by tilting the nose to the right. As I said, I am no trainer, just a recreational rider, but this is how I understand it. Don't forget that a lot of your request for a turn should come from your legs.

As for her desire to be in the lead, I have taken some clinics with a John Lyons certified trainer, who showed me how to disengage my horse's "engine" when she is being a Seabiscuit. Simply turn her nose to your toe, by bringing one hand to your hip (with a rein in the hand), let her spin until he stops propelling forward - release when there is no more forward propulsion. Perhaps someone else on this board can explain this better.

Another thing to do on the trail is half-halts. Don't let her just hang on your hands, she will learn that it's ok to do that. Little, repeated reminders that if she starts speeding up, she will get the signal to slow down. But don't tighten up and leave it like that. That will get him use to always being on a tight rein.

I hope I haven't confused you and I hope I haven't given you bad advise. This is just what works for me.

Edited by barstow 2008-03-10 7:11 AM

You shouldn't have a problem with stepping back down to a snaffle and doing some tuning.  What would be a bad thing is to start changing the rules/cues with your current shanked bit, like direct contact.  If you used direct contact with the snaffle then that is how your horse knows to handle that bit and all is well.

Horses will act out or become stubborn when the rules/cues change, consistency is your key to success!

As for the leader of the pack, I'd think turning her in circles would cause her to act out...you really need a better system to eradicate this behavior completely, like as stated above.

I recently watched a trainer help resolve this issue by using the charging horse and a quiet horse. Everytime the horses were near each other the charging horse had to work by either doing circles or figure 8's. Then were allowed to rest apart. The charging horse soon learned that being next to another horse would result in work. This lesson will need to be repeated several times in different locations though. So best to start in an enclosed area, then move on to the open.

Is there a trainer you can work with for a short amount of time? Sometimes this can be money well spent to alliviate an annoying problem before it escalates into something worse.

I had watched the Clinton Anderson problem solving on the trail dvd, and it addresses my problem, it involves doing some practice with riding horses side by side, and when the seabiscuit gets ahead you immediately bend him around and the other horse turns too.  Then you go off neck & neck again, and when the speedy horse gets ahead he has to hustle to turn around. It's a little hard to describe, but it sure seems practical...if I can find someone to train with me.  Most all of Clinton's ssolutions involve disingaging the hindquarters or bending the horse laterally (snaffle required), getting the horse soft supple and focused on you while making his feet hustle.  His horse is of course, perfect in every way, so I can only imagine how sloppy daisy will look in comparison, but I think that if I incorporate his ideas it will be a good start. 

 I just tend to agree with the other poster that if I try to circle her on the trail when other horses are riding off into the distance, I'll get bucked to kingdom come. Not to mention, I rarely have the room to circle much.  Most trails are rather narrow to circle a big horse like mine. My problem is finding someone who will fart around with me while I fix problems, instead of being in the go go go ride ride ride mode.  I might try boarding her somewhere with an indoor arena so I can work her in a safe environment and get the lessons taught before we hit the trail.

    On a side note, I really haven't messed with miss Daisy in a while, the weather has just been so rotten.  I got a nice day yesterday and decided to see if she'd load into my new horse trailer, a straight load with a ramp.  She's never encountered a ramp before.  She walked right in, but of course before she went all the way in she decided to see if bumper pads were edible.  The stock trailer didn't have those!  She seemed to approve of the new "ride" and went in and out several times. She's really a good horse, very trustworthy and kind.  She's worth the effort to "fix".  My QH Ed on the other hand was a basket case.  I have a boatload of work to do on him....ramps are just NOT his forte...they might eat horses like him!   He's a dream under saddle but his ground manners and loading just plain suck!  He was owned by novice people who let him get away with murder, and while he cares for his rider in the saddle, he'll mow you down on the ground.  Horses are a never ending project....perhaps that's why I love them.   It's always something new and challenging.

Amanda

You shouldn't have any problems "stepping down" from a shank bit to a snaffle, and in fact, if you follow any of the popular clinicians, they all use snaffle bits - mostly full cheek - and if you watch them, you can see that their goal is to gain control of the animal by teaching it to respond to pressure in the shoulders, in the mid section and in the hind quarters.  They do this with rein and leg pressure in gradual increments, not by the force or the leverage of the shank/curb bit. I think you are on the right track to get into an arena and practice the moves that Clinton Anderson, John/Josh Lyons, and Pat Parelli teach.  It will also help if you can get another horse or two in the arena with you to simulate the conditions you experience on the trail.

Something to keep in mind - and I'm not one to make pre-judgements about horses based on their breed, but you have an animal who is a draft horse.  Their job - the one that has been bred into them for centuries - is to pull.  Remember this when you ride and train. Sometimes, the more pressure you put on them by pulling back on that bit, the more they want to dig in and go forward.  They can't help it. It's their occupation in life and they think they know that better than you.  That being said, they are usually good natured and steady. That's another good reason to practice the methods that Anderson and Lyons teach.  You will be less likely to depend on the bit as much as the learned behaviour that you will be teaching your horse.

Hope this works for you and happy trail riding.  I can't wait to get started this spring.  It's been a tough winter for riding here in Northern NJ.

I am 100% opposed to your "drafts pull" line, it shows that you have never driven a cart or buggy.  Horses (all breeds) give to pressure when they are trained to, they grab the bit and run through it when they aren't trained properly.

I have driven cart horses for quite some time and I can tell you they MUST be light on the bit due to the lack of direct contact.  You close your hand and they MUST give because you can't reach down the rein and pull them around.

Cart horses pull with their shoulders not their mouths!

Huntseat - I certainly did not intend to offend with my reference to pulling.  However, I have driven horses and ponies for fun and competition for many years.  These have been open pleasure driving competitions, not breed shows.  I have driven marathons and cross country, pleasure and roadster. 

You are correct, the animal does not pull with it's mouth.  A well trained horse with properly fitting equipment - carriage and harness - should be using it's hind quarters for impulsion in drawing the vehicle.  The saddle and breast collar should assist in balancing the carriage so that a well conditioned horse can draw the vehicle easily without undue stress on the shoulders.

My point in my original email was to emphasize the way a draft horse "wants" to work.