Hi all! I've been too busy riding lately to visit the site much. Hooray!!
As I endured a clinic this past weekend in 104 degree heat, I started thinking more seriously (again!)about insulating my gooseneck area...I've been considering using "insulating paint" inside, as well as on the roof of, my aluminum trailer. Have any of you had experience with this kind of application? They use this stuff on school bus and RV roofs regularly, and I thought, why not on my horse trailer? I don't have a back tack, so all my stuff is in the gooseneck area where I sleep and I like to empty it a couple times each year and squirt it all out with a hose. Can't do that with regular insulation, so this stuff sounds pretty good. I wish I could clean my house that way too.
The Mascoat site has the most specific info with lots of facts and figures, but I don't want to do this if it's just a waste of time and money. Thanks for any and all thoughts.
Posted 2006-07-28 2:42 PM (#45596 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489 Location: CA
Hmmmmm. Nobody's done this? What about the ASTM tables on the Mascoat website? Do they make sense? It looks like I can "insulate" my trailer for less than $100, so it might be a good alternative for us penny pinchers. Reg? Any thoughts?
Posted 2006-07-28 3:13 PM (#45598 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455 Location: Texas
I did not find the ASTM tables, but I am somewhat skeptical. R-9? That is the same as 2" of pink board. If it is true, it is great. The problem I see, is you would need to paint not only the roof, but the sides of the trailer as well to take full advantage of it. And it looks like it has to be on the outside. I can see that it would do some good in the sun and heat of the day, but I do not understand how it can work with cold temps. For $100, though, you could try it. I've spent more than $100 on some pretty dumb things before.
Posted 2006-07-28 3:35 PM (#45602 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489 Location: CA
Yeah, it does sound too good to be true. I need an engineer who has used it on exhaust pipes, or something, to make me feel more sure. I think I'll never do a real insulation on my trailer (I like the hose clean/out too much!), so this might be worth a try for me. If/when I do it, I'll let you know how it works.
Posted 2006-07-28 3:47 PM (#45603 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
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Posts: 489 Location: CA
jdzaharia - The part that references the ASTM standards is under the "What is R-Value?" heading on the website. Also, they're referenced in the section "How it Works" under the Fairy Tales warning. Does that help?
Posted 2006-07-28 9:37 PM (#45615 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
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Posts: 2689
I read most of their web site.
I don't know if it is the "style" or if somethings didn't get through from their technical people to the ad copy writers, but it doesn't seem to hang together very well.
In isolation their descriptions and arguements are logical to a point, but then logic seems to disappear and wild proclamations about their product appears.
I'm not convinced that they have a product suitable for horse trailer roofs, not something that I would spend money on anyway.
20 thou of air entrained paint isn't going to provide much "insulation", the reflected radiant heat appears to be about twice what white paint would provide.
That is about all I got out of it.
For a DIY project I think you'd have to mess with staging and rollers or a sprayer.
I'd rather do the semi-rigid board, foil covered bubble wrap, or just panel over the spaces between the roof ribs on the inside.
Just the dead air space would almost certainly be better than 20 thou of air entrained coating - IMAO, etc.
Posted 2006-07-29 12:15 PM (#45633 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489 Location: CA
OK, I was suspicious too. I was just hoping for that miracle solution and this sounded like it was the perfect answer. I truly do enjoy squirting out the interior of my trailer...I wish I could do that with the bubble wrap or some of the beautiful paneling I see in the LQ conversions!
If I decide to try this, I'll do a comparison of heat difference between painted and un-painted parts and pass on the results to y'all. Wish me luck.
Posted 2006-07-30 9:42 PM (#45693 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824 Location: Kansas
I am using a ceramic paint additive that is supposed to have insulating qualities. I saw it at a home show where they had painted half of a piece of painted barn metal and left the other alone, put a heat lamp behind it and the difference was amazing. As someone said, I've spent a whole lot more on dumber things. This was $12 to add to a gallon of paint, two coats needed. Well, I started on that this weekend but so far just have my primer coat and have gone back and done my cutting in. It's 100+ here in Kansas, so it ought to be a good test. The appearance is like a grayish flour and mixed with the primer it has a bit of a rough texture. Will let you all know if/how it works. It's only money and I have nothing but time on my hands, just like the rest of you, right? PS-I am using the HyTech additive.
Posted 2006-07-30 11:48 PM (#45697 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489 Location: CA
Oh, Hooray!!! Somebody else is going to be a guinea pig! The Hy-Tech states you can roller it on, whereas the Mascoat has to be sprayed. Are you using a roller? Or just a paint brush? Please let me know if it works. Even if it helps by a few degrees (like maybe 10?)that would be helpful to me. Are you using the interior paint as well as the exterior roof paint?
Posted 2006-07-31 11:04 AM (#45718 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824 Location: Kansas
That's me-sucker for a new convenience! I am rolling it on the inside of both the horse part and the dressing room. Interesting stuff-it has a bit of a tendency to set up so I put a few dribbles (and I do mean dribbles) of water in about halfway through my rolling. Of course, in 104 degree heat everything wants to dry up. Be sure you use a bonding primer if you are painting slick aluminum like me. Probably a good idea anyway. It leaves a gritty texture not unlike drywall. I'm putting my first coat on tonight after it finish my seam/corner cutting in. It requires two coats, put one sack into my bonding primer and will probably go back with a white gloss on top. If nothing else, it appears to be sticking to the aluminum just fine and it's a lot lighter inside. I took readings (100 last night) inside my trailer before and will do so after first coat and after second coat. Hadn't planned on a roof coat at this time.
Posted 2006-07-31 12:03 PM (#45724 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489 Location: CA
Thanks so much! That's exactly what I would do with the interiors of both the gooseneck/dressing room and the horse section. Are you doing the walls as well as the ceiling? How rough is it? Like that old "cottage cheese" ceiling material? I don't want to brush up against it at night and get all scraped up! Thanks for being an adventurer with this stuff. Maybe if it works they'll get a huge run on this stuff by Horse Trailer World addicts and you can collect a commission.
Posted 2006-07-31 1:00 PM (#45730 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824 Location: Kansas
This isn't anything like ceiling texture, more of a sanded finish like some of the suede paints they are making now. Real fine, just a bit of texture. Nothing that you could knock off or that would scrape you. I don't see why it would keep you from hosing out your trailer either. Yes, I'm doing both walls as well as ceiling. Also doing the ribs, but mostly because it was going to be a lot easier to paint everything than to tape what I didn't want covered. And my sidewalls in the horse compartment were already insulated, so I wouldn't have had to maybe, but more work to try not to and figuring it would still help some. I did clean the aluminum first to get all the oils off. I just hosed it out with some eq solutions; I read that vinegar and dish soap mix would work also but I already had this.
Posted 2006-08-01 9:09 PM (#45843 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824 Location: Kansas
Update: to date I have put on a primer coat and one coat of the ceramic/paint mixture. This morning the trailer was about 4 degrees cooler than ambient air, trailer had been left open all night. At 5PM the trailer was the same temperature as ambient air and the metal was warm/hot to the touch. At this time I closed the trailer up. At 9PM the trailer was about the same temperature as ambient air and metal was cool to the touch. The mfg. does state that there should be no less than two coats so will report after that also. I had hoped that there would be some degree of change with even half the recommended "dosage" so will be interested to see if the second coat does the trick. The inside is certainly brighter and less cave like so am not sorry I painted it. Will let you know Thursday whether the additive lives up to its claims or if I'm sorry I spent the money. And if not, what the manufacturers have to say!
Posted 2006-08-01 9:57 PM (#45846 - in reply to #45843) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Veteran
Posts: 190 Location: Texas
Terri S,
Thanks for trying this stuff out and letting us know how it works. I am eager to see how it affects the temperature inside the trailer, especially if it is in the sun. I don't know how it could be expected to be any cooler than the surrounding air . . . it is an insulator not a coolant. I would expect it to reflect or insulate from some of the solar "gain" through the roof or other areas exposed to the sun's rays, but I am certainly no scientist. Anyway, thanks again for sharing the info. Much appreciated!!
Posted 2006-08-02 12:09 AM (#45857 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489 Location: CA
terri s - Thanks again for being our guinea pig. Also for including the temperature data so I can decide if I want to do this with regular paint or the insulating paint. I can't believe I was just thinking of doing this and here you are trying it out. (I'll say it again. I love this site!) I look forward to your update after the second coat. Keep up the good work! Easy for me to say.......Is it still 104 in your area of Kansas?
Posted 2006-08-02 8:18 AM (#45866 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824 Location: Kansas
104? Oh yeah! 102 in the shade! Rollin makes a good point-why would it be any cooler. What I should have done was felt the metal on the roof outside and then the ceiling inside. Will try that tonight and after second coat. If it does as it is supposed to it will at least slow the heat gain to the interior. Will keep you all posted.
Posted 2006-08-02 11:19 AM (#45893 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489 Location: CA
As far as the heat gain, I agree with Rollin. When my trailer sits in the hot sun it gets hotter inside than the outside air temp. There's no way to blow all that hot air out in an enclosed space. I have a ceiling fan, but it can't keep up with the whole gooseneck area on a hot day. It really bakes in that baby! (Think solar oven) I think to appreciate the effect of the ceramic paint fully in the summer you'd have to put a coat of paint on the roof to reflect heat away from the trailer. Then when it gets cold outside, the interior application will be the most effective since it'll(in theory) reflect/insulate heat back inside the trailer instead of outside to dissipate. Now you're going to have to re-test when it gets cold and update us on that too!
The other day we(the family and I) were looking at new cars. (Mine's about to die with 200K on it.) Anyway, I had my son feel the hoods of a line of cars with different colors. The difference between the colors was amazing. White and silver were comparable. Gold was quite a bit hotter much to my surprise. Then the red, followed by the navy blue and black. The last 2 were too hot to keep our hands on them to figure out which one was hotter.
I guess you need to do the touch test on both sides of your trailer walls. Pleeeease?It should be that you can touch the painted side longer than the unpainted side if this stuff works. Which side did they have you touch at the demo you went to?
Posted 2006-08-02 12:50 PM (#45899 - in reply to #45893) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
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Posts: 2689
Originally written by gemm on 2006-08-02 11:19 AM
As far as the heat gain, I agree with Rollin. When my trailer sits in the hot sun it gets hotter inside than the outside air temp. There's no way to blow all that hot air out in an enclosed space. I have a ceiling fan, but it can't keep up with the whole gooseneck area on a hot day. It really bakes in that baby! (Think solar oven) I think to appreciate the effect of the ceramic paint fully in the summer you'd have to put a coat of paint on the roof to reflect heat away from the trailer. Then when it gets cold outside, the interior application will be the most effective since it'll(in theory) reflect/insulate heat back inside the trailer instead of outside to dissipate. Now you're going to have to re-test when it gets cold and update us on that too!
The other day we(the family and I) were looking at new cars. (Mine's about to die with 200K on it.) Anyway, I had my son feel the hoods of a line of cars with different colors. The difference between the colors was amazing. White and silver were comparable. Gold was quite a bit hotter much to my surprise. Then the red, followed by the navy blue and black. The last 2 were too hot to keep our hands on them to figure out which one was hotter.
I guess you need to do the touch test on both sides of your trailer walls. Pleeeease?It should be that you can touch the painted side longer than the unpainted side if this stuff works. Which side did they have you touch at the demo you went to?
Thanks again. This is hugely helpful!
This is devolving into the heat vs temperature rat hole (-:
Sure, dark colored car hoods get too hot to touch in the sun, however they don't pick up THAT MUCH more heat than light colored ones.
To make the parking lot experiment meaningful you would have to lift the hoods and feel the tops of the engines.
You MIGHT be able to do this at a car dealership, cars that have stood in the sun all day and not had their engines run for a few days. Pick the white one, pick the black one, ask to see the engines. Betcha the top hose temps aren't detectably different.
By their own web site the ceramic paint reflects twice as much radiant heat as regular white paint, which isn't that much of an issue anyway. On a roof some of that then gets conducted to the air underneath, which is the hottest air in the trailer anyway.
When the air temp is in the high nineties,,, guess what ?
Everything tends to high nineties, you can slow it down with insulation, but you don't get much of that in a 20 thou coat of paint. An inch or two of foam, even the foil coated bubble wrap, even just plain ole regular bubble wrap will reduce the conduction of heat into the trailer a lot better.
Posted 2006-08-02 1:06 PM (#45900 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489 Location: CA
Reg - So would the engine hoses be comparably hot because of the insulation in the hood? Or would the actual metal on the underside of the hoods be comparable? That's what confuses me. In the end all I care about is the air temp in my trailer. Oh yeah, and a nice coat of white paint would brighten up my dull aluminum interior too, which is what got me started down this path!
Just to confuse things a bit more.....They also claim noise reduction with these paints.
Posted 2006-08-02 1:51 PM (#45903 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824 Location: Kansas
Gemm-to answer your question, I touched both a painted and unpainted side by side and backsides. Backside of painted was warmer as well. Honestly, if this at least lets it quit dripping on me I'll be happy. And Reg is right, the bubble wrap stuff would be better. This is what I can afford to do right now. Am hoping to buy a little larger trailer after awhile and don't want to put a lot of money in this one just in case.
Posted 2006-08-03 9:10 AM (#45952 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824 Location: Kansas
Today's update (sort of)...felt the roof and the ceiling last night, pre-second coat of paint. The inside felt marginally cooler but as it was overcast, this is not really a good test. Put second (final? Depends on coverage) coat of metal paint with insulating media in and will check again tonight. So far, no miracles, but the trailer looks pretty good. One small problem I've had and would appreciate some guidance on-whatever they used to caulk the inside ribs with is rejecting paint. This caulk matches the color of the aluminum and I always just assumed it was the usual silicone, but the bonding primer hasn't stuck to it very well and subsequent coat of paint also wants to slide off. It never occurred to me that a caulk wouldn't cover, so maybe it's not silicone. Anyone know what it typically used for this or what to do if primer won't stick? It's sort of covered up but you can still see where it is.
Posted 2006-08-03 12:37 PM (#45965 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489 Location: CA
Let us know whether there's a difference between the painted and unpainted parts when it's sunny out. I guess you're happy it's not so blazing hot though, so the clouds must be a relief! As for the silicone type sealant, I can't help. My trailer has sealant around all the ribs and all seams. I hope it takes the primer well if/when I paint. Keep cool!
Posted 2006-08-03 7:02 PM (#45983 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824 Location: Kansas
Just under 90 degrees today and still overcast-feels like a cold front compared to what we've had. You're right, I'm thankful for the break. Am picking up claustrophobic mare tomorrow and will be interested to see if the brighter environment makes her feel any better about being cooped up.
Posted 2006-08-05 9:25 AM (#46038 - in reply to #45900) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
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Posts: 2689
Originally written by gemm on 2006-08-02 1:06 PM
Reg - So would the engine hoses be comparably hot because of the insulation in the hood? Or would the actual metal on the underside of the hoods be comparable? That's what confuses me. In the end all I care about is the air temp in my trailer. Oh yeah, and a nice coat of white paint would brighten up my dull aluminum interior too, which is what got me started down this path!
Just to confuse things a bit more.....They also claim noise reduction with these paints.
The effect of the sound deadening blankets (acting as insulation) would dominate the difference in heat picked up by black vs white.
The analogy is misleading anyway since the engine bay of a car/truck is (almost) full of metal, rubber, oil water, etc., which adds up to a lot of thermal capacity, i.e. it would take a LOT of heat to get a few degrees rise in temperature.
Posted 2006-08-05 6:41 PM (#46052 - in reply to #45449) Subject: RE: insulating paint coatings
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824 Location: Kansas
Folks-I'm here to tell you that when it's 104 EVERYTHING is hot! Can I tell a difference between the temperature of the coated vs uncoated? Yes. Is it significant? I would have to say no. As far as I can tell I've followed all directions, so am going to contact the company and see what they have to say. Interestingly enough, I got a thicker coating off the bonding primer than with the same amount of media in metal paint. ??? Who knows.
insulating paint coatings
heat, I started thinking more seriously (again!)about insulating my gooseneck area...I've been considering using "insulating paint" inside, as well as on the roof of, my aluminum trailer. Have any of you had experience with this kind of application? They use this stuff on school bus and RV roofs regularly, and I thought, why not on my horse trailer? I don't have a back tack, so all my stuff is in the gooseneck area where I sleep and I like to empty it a couple times each year and squirt it all out with a hose. Can't do that with regular insulation, so this stuff sounds pretty good. I wish I could clean my house that way too
.
Somebody else is going to be a guinea pig! The Hy-Tech states you can roller it on, whereas the Mascoat has to be sprayed. Are you using a roller? Or just a paint brush? Please let me know if it works. Even if it helps by a few degrees (like maybe 10?)that would be helpful to me. Are you using the interior paint as well as the exterior roof paint? 
.
) I look forward to your update after the second coat. Keep up the good work! Easy for me to say.......Is it still 104 in your area of Kansas?