Posted 2010-07-22 9:22 PM (#122689) Subject: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Member
Posts: 9
Location: Effingham IL
We have a 4 horse Keifer Built LQ with midtack. Took it in for a problem with the converter and the service dept noticed rivets popped along the roofline above the escape door at the front of the horse compartment, also found rivets popped along the front of the fender on that same side of the trailer. Opened the escape door and discovered that the welds at the bottom of the door frame are broken on both sides of the door. It appears that the floor has dropped about 2 inches in that area and that is what broke the welds.The trailer structure is still under warranty, but Keifer Built says that they feel damage was done when the LQ conversion was done by Cutter Conversions. Problem is Cutter went out of business several years ago. This was a trailer we bought off the lot, the conversion was done at either Keifer Built or Midway Trailer Sales' (where we bought it) direction.Keifer Built wants us to get the trailer to either IA or TN (7-8 hour drive)facility for inspection and then they will tell us if they are responsible for the repairs. Dealer doesn't care what we do, but says either we have to pay for the repairs (first they have to take it apart to find out what the problem is)or they have to know that Keifer Built is going to pay for them, before they start tearing into it at $70 an hour and who knows how many hours to find the problem.Has anyone ever had this problem? How can we get this resolved? Who is responsible for the conversion that damaged the trailer (if that is what did it)? What would you do if you were in my shoes? You could be if you buy a Keifer Built.
Posted 2010-07-22 10:12 PM (#122693 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Expert
Posts: 2953 Location: North Carolina
Why does Kiefer think the conversion caused the problem? Did they cut any floor supports?
The selling dealer is your first contact with Kiefer. You and Kiefer paid them to to be the local representative. Since you are their customer, the selling dealer should be your advocate with Kiefer. Insist the dealer do their job.
Posted 2010-07-22 11:39 PM (#122700 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Location: KY
I am a little disappointed to hear that Midway Trailer Sales is not going after Keifer. A while back, when Midway had a facility at Benton KY, they were very aggressive with Keifer on our behalf. I for one do not believe that the conversion affected the integrity of the trailer. The Keifers with the Cutter packages were a whole lot nicer than the in house thing Keifer is doing now. Suggest you get a little intense with Midway. If they are no longer a Keifer dealer, that may be part of the problem but Midway does need to advocate on your behalf.
By the way, and I am sure you know this, Keifer built the trailers designed for particular Cutter packages to be installed, then sent the trailer to Cutter for the installation, and after the second stage manufacturing process, the trailer went to the dealer.
Posted 2010-07-23 12:06 AM (#122703 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Member
Posts: 9
Location: Effingham IL
Thanks for the info. I will contact my Midway Trailer Sales again today. I will be more insistent this time that this is a manufacturer problem, especially now that I know that they built the trailers expressly for a Cutter Conversion. This is a 2004 trailer but we didn't buy it until 2006 and didn't start using it until 2007. We haul mountain horses, nothing nearly as big as drafts. I have been happy with the trailer, but now I am just frustrated. Thanks again.
Posted 2010-07-23 5:00 AM (#122705 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Expert
Posts: 1283 Location: Home of Wild Turkey Whiskey
I have done a few conversions on Kiefer trailers, and I personally know Andy Troyer(Cutter Conversions) he is still doing conversions, I can't remember his new companies name. It sounds like a manufacturing issue, what size is the trailer? Sounds like it has been in a terrible bind, the axle assembly(steel) is just beyond that escape door on some models(X-340-X-380) I would look under the trailer and see if the steel sub-frame for the axles is bent/broken/unattached.
Posted 2010-07-23 7:35 AM (#122709 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Member
Posts: 9
Location: Effingham IL
This trailer has been ours since it was purchased new from the dealer. It has never been in a bind. No one has hauled in it but my husband and I. It has only been used fully loaded a few times and only on open highway. It hasn't been wrecked. It has a few bumps to the running board at low speed (under 5 MPH). If the axle is broken, it happened before we got it, 5 years ago. Most of the time on the road, it has only had 1 horse in it. We use it maybe 8-10 times a year from IL to KY or TN or NC. Only 1 long haul loaded in it's entire lifetime. I don't think this is heavy use and know that it isn't "use other than as intended".
Posted 2010-07-23 8:26 AM (#122715 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Regular
Posts: 67 Location: Edinburg, Va.
I have a 2003 Kiefer Genesis X-380 with a Cutter Conversion. Just recently we also noticed broken and loose rivets above the escape door for the first stall. I called Kiefer and spoke to Darryl Anderson. My concern was roof structure integrity and he told me that the purpose of these rivets was to hold the side panels in place under the roof cap. I guess I feel a little better at that news but still concerned over what made them break or come loose. Checked the rest of the rivets and they seemed okay for now.He sent me the rivets for replacement and a tool to round off the heads. We replaced 12 rivets in all along that area. Interesting that you have had the same issue. We are very careful where we take the trailer and also try not to put it on any hard binds. I did block the axles several years for clearance; work performed by the dealer who sold me the trailer.Your news warrants a very thorough and closer inspection of the frame and axles of my trailer. Please keep us updated about your trailer.
Posted 2010-07-23 10:02 AM (#122720 - in reply to #122709) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Member
Posts: 9
Location: Effingham IL
Got another message from Midway yesterday. Spoke to them today. They are pursuing this with Keifer Built. I feel a bit better after talking with them today, but still believe that this will take some time to sort out and that still leaves me hauling in a stock trailer with all my show stuff in the back seat of the extended cab for the biggest shows in my breed each year. 2 full weeks in hotels is part of why we bought the LQ in the first place. It's better than finding out when the trailer floor collapsed on the highway, though.
Posted 2010-07-23 10:11 AM (#122721 - in reply to #122715) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Member
Posts: 9
Location: Effingham IL
@gaitinOurs is a 2004 Genesis X-480. Does yours have a mid-tack? Which by the way we really like having. The original response back from Keifer Built was the same as yours, just there to hold the sidewalls in place and "oh, we will send you 12 replacement rivets" and "it won't be a problem". It was when I saw the base of the escape door that I realized there was a bigger issue. This is my first rodeo, when it comes to horse trailers. That is why I started asking every horseman I know about trailers. They directed me here and I am glad. I have been told that Keifer Built has had some structural issues with all 3 doors (LQ,midtack, and escape) on the same side of the trailer. Certainly warrants having yours looked at again.
Posted 2010-07-23 11:39 AM (#122723 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Regular
Posts: 67 Location: Edinburg, Va.
I do not have a mid tack. My LQ entrance door is on the curb side; the only door on the driver's side is the escape door. That door closes and latches properly as do the drop windows and manger doors. The only issue that is apparent was the rivets but we will be looking closer.
Posted 2010-07-23 8:14 PM (#122739 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Expert
Posts: 5870 Location: western PA
Originally written by rockymyworld on 2010-07-22 10:22 PM
We have a 4 horse Keifer Built LQ with midtack. Opened the escape door and discovered that the welds at the bottom of the door frame are broken on both sides of the door. It appears that the floor has dropped about 2 inches in that area and that is what broke the welds.QUOTE]
The floor joists are usually welded to plates at each end, that are then Huck bolted to the main floor frame rail, If the flooring has dropped two inches in one area, either the welds at the end of the floor joists have failed or the Huck bolts have sheared. The structural intergrity of the trailer has been compromised, and any repairs should be completed before the trailer is reused. In most conversions where holding tanks are installed, usually the top plate and ends of the floor joists are not removed or modified. This limits any damage to the surrounding structure, and the loss of strength in the flooring.
We visited the Cutter facility when we were looking at Keifer products. Their conversion interiors were clean, functional and somewhat modest. Upon request, additional cabinets and upgraded equipment could be added, something of which the Keifer dealers were apparently unaware or didn't want to share, and which the conversion company employees readily touted.
On the same trip we also visited the Harmer and Showtime facilities. It apparently was a poorly kept secret, that Showtime built some of the upgrade "Cutter" interiors. We inspected the interiors of a few Keifers, that they had recently finished, complete with "Cutter" logos and which were stored at the Showtime facitilities.
Keifer has a pretty good reputation lately. It will be interesting to see how this situation is handled, and by whom. Now that many people are made aware of this predicament, the notariety might be beneficial in providing a positive outcome. We'll see if Keifer stands tall when all is said and done.
Posted 2010-07-24 3:03 PM (#122755 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Regular
Posts: 79
Hi Judy,Could you post some pictures of the damage? I really would like to see it and so would everybody else Im sure. I have a differant brand trailer and have never seen any damage- but I wouldlike to see what to look for.Thanks, Jody
Posted 2010-07-24 4:30 PM (#122756 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Expert
Posts: 1283 Location: Home of Wild Turkey Whiskey
Cutter was a division of RV Conversions Inc.(I probley have one of his old cards around here somewhere) they were in an industrial park in Goshen In. and it was owned by Andy Troyer, I talked with Andy last, a couple years ago and he had moved to Southern Mich. and changed the company name, not sure of the circumstances.
Posted 2010-07-25 12:13 AM (#122767 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Member
Posts: 9
Location: Effingham IL
We really like our trailer. We hadn't had any problems with it, except that the converter quit working this last trip. I tried everything that the dealership told me over the phone, and we ended up using rechargeable solar spot lights inside the trailer at night. When I took it in, they discovered that the fuse inside the converter had wiggled loose and it worked fine once they pushed it back into place.I don't have pictures at this time. Didn't have a camera with me at the dealership when we discovered the problem. The service manager at Midway did take pictures and sent them to Keifer Built with his first inquiry. IF we don't get this settled in the next 2 weeks, I will be driving the 2 1/2 hours back to the dealership to empty the remainder of our belongings out of the trailer and I will pull the mats and take pictures of any damage that I can see. I will be glad to post them as soon as I get them. If I can get the service manager to send me his, I will post them sooner.I have to work this week till Thursday and we have 2 horse shows in the next 2 weeks. 1 of them is 5 days long. This is why this is such a bad time for this to happen.
Posted 2010-07-26 9:58 AM (#122787 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Elite Veteran
Posts: 795 Location: Tenn/Ala.
There’s been a lot of information here, and I’d like to clarify and explain a bit. First-The trailer in question does not have a Kiefer Built living quarters. During the time this trailer was sold, Kiefer Built Inc. had no distribution east of the Miss. River. A company out of the Elkhart, IN. area by the name of Kiefer East purchased trailers from Kiefer Built, and then resold them to their own dealer body. As part of that, Kiefer East developed and owned the “Cutter” name we have seen and used it to develop a LQ series. There was never a Cutter plant per se. As has been mentioned here, Cutter interiors were installed by Recreational Conversions and Showtime Conversions, and both companies did other work alongside the Cutter jobs under their own names. I do understand Recreational Conversions is no longer in business today. As far as I know, there are no more Cutter interiors being produced, but the name is still used in the marketing of RV generators. The challenge here is that as has been mentioned, the trailer in question left Kiefer Built and was billed out and warrantied, without a living quarters. My understanding is that Kiefer Built has offered to inspect the trailer and if the interior work had no cause, to repair it. Somewhere in here, it seems to have gotten lost that we are dealing with a situation where at least one of the likely responsible parties is no longer with us, and thus their warranty is lost also. I trust that the trailer owner, Kiefer Built, and Midway trailer can all get together to see what is truly going on. But in some of the earlier posts, Kiefer Built has been asked to possibly warranty another’s work. In today’s age, that sometimes just isn’t possible. But let’s all just take a breath, and rather than throw down gauntlets, or crucify a particular party, and try and work through this together. A little cooperation and give & take will get us farther than misinformation and challenges for a particular action.
Posted 2010-07-27 6:53 AM (#122836 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Member
Posts: 9
Location: Effingham IL
Forgive me if I am a little indignant that Keifer Built's response changed from "oh, no big deal, just replace the rivets" to "the conversion caused the loss of structural integrity" when I questioned the reason for the rivet failure. They suddenly realized that there was a serious problem? If Keifer Built knew at any point that there were problems with the structural integrity of their trailers after Cutter Conversions were installed, then I believe that they had and have a responsibility to horse owners to let them know that.
If anyone had said "Oh by the way, the conversion may have rendered this trailer structurally unsound", do you think I would have purchased the trailer?
Posted 2010-07-27 9:20 AM (#122843 - in reply to #122836) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Elite Veteran
Posts: 795 Location: Tenn/Ala.
Originally written by rockymyworld on 2010-07-27 6:53 AM
Forgive me if I am a little indignant that Keifer Built's response changed from "oh, no big deal, just replace the rivets" to "the conversion caused the loss of structural integrity" when I questioned the reason for the rivet failure. They suddenly realized that there was a serious problem? If Keifer Built knew at any point that there were problems with the structural integrity of their trailers after Cutter Conversions were installed, then I believe that they had and have a responsibility to horse owners to let them know that.
If anyone had said "Oh by the way, the conversion may have rendered this trailer structurally unsound", do you think I would have purchased the trailer?
I believe anyone's response is going to be predicated upon what is reported to be wrong. If the service technician says rivets are broken, then Kiefer will say replace them. If service tech says floor is broken, there certainly is another issue. The lead person on this issue will have to be the service folks who can touch the trailer, which I assume is Midway. And they have a long history of great service.
As to KB being watchful of a conversion- it seems that any manufacturer is concerned about things outside of their control. I've seen it from every manufacturer. And no- no one had an idea that RC Conversions was going to cause an issue with structural integrity. And to this point, we still don't know what happened. I am respectful of KB being very honest and open to the possibility that they are responsible, but being upfront with the potential that this might be beyond their scope. Myself- I'd rather see all the cards early on, rather than have a "Surprise" later. Now, I'd please ask of you to work with Midway to get this handled. I think that you'll find them very receptive to anything they can do to make you happy and in a professional manner. We all want you happy! But as that Rotary test says- "Is it fair to all concerned?". And sometimes fair isn't always pleasant, but it is fair. Just my thoughts.
RTSmith
Posted 2010-07-27 9:48 AM (#122849 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Elite Veteran
Posts: 714 Location: Minnesota
RTSmith-Thanks for your insightful, fair and honest information. Those of us that have been on this forum for a while know that you are a dealer and always have good information that you willingly share with us. Personally I appreciate the way you "call a spade a spade" while also finding the middle ground between the consumer, manufacturer, and especially competing dealers.
In my personal experience with KB, they have never shirked the problems, and have done all could to keep the integrity of their company.
Posted 2010-07-27 10:01 AM (#122851 - in reply to #122843) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Member
Posts: 9
Location: Effingham IL
I am and have been working with Midway at every step through this process, I am not sure why you would suggest that I was not. The Service Manager there has been keeping me aware of what is going on regularly. He has been most apologetic about the inconvenience of being without my trailer at this busy time of the year.According to the Midway Service Manager, Keifer Built was told the welds were broken at the same time that they were told about the rivets. Their initial response was as I have previously stated (as reported to me by Midway). I came here to find out if other people had the same problems and to get advice from people more experienced in this area than I am. I have learned a lot through reading the posts here. I will let you all know what the outcomes are.
Posted 2010-08-13 12:48 PM (#123475 - in reply to #122689) Subject: RE: Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
Member
Posts: 9
Location: Effingham IL
Midway Trailer Sales of Litchfield IL transported my Kiefer Built trailer to TN when they were on the way there to pick up another trailer. I was contacted this week to let me know that Kiefer Built is fixing any structural problems at no charge. They reportedly finished the repairs yesterday. I am not sure how my trailer will be getting back from TN, but I am sure that the dealer will be contacting me soon.
Keifer Built with Cutter Conversion PROBLEM
