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Over trained?

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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-08 6:49 AM (#40099)
Subject: Over trained?


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I have had this said to me many times in the last decade.Over trained! I have a 4 y.o.Driftwood/Three Bars X Wimpy /Breeze Bar 15.2 filly for sale.Reing patterns down pat.($7500)A female Doctor(middle aged) wanting to do lower level dressage and trail riding came to try her out.Saw the filly work and was impressed.Backing,turning ,lead changes,shoulders in and out etc.Then swapped saddles and head stalls(to Doc's English stuff)and she tried her.Was shocked at how sensitive to leg pressure filly was.Kept saying OH! you have to ride her off your legs! Doc could not back her straight and must have squeezed a lot as filly would speed up and I would have have to tell her release pressure and SIT back and filly would slow nicely etc.filly over reacted to most over thing Doc did.Doc then trail rode her with no issues.BUT said OVERTRAINED and intimidated her.Did say it was the best looking animal she had looked at BUT! I've heard this time after time selling horses we have raised and started.Maybe we put too much time in schooling our animals.Should we try to make them LESS schooled and more camp horse like? Frustrated!
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mrstacticalmedic
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-08 11:20 AM (#40102 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?



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Sounds like the doc was a quack!!!  I know alot of dressage riders and they don't use alot of pressure either. So whoever is teaching her is way off base!  Dressage is supposed to be subtle cueing just like reining.  That is why often times they call reining cowboy dressage!  Subtleness, softness, and cueining unseen by the naked eye is what they look for!  Sounds like this doc wouldn't know what a good horse was if it bit her on the keister!

 

Sounds like you have a great mare!  Great job on the training!  I am sure someone will come along who appreciates her!

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hosspuller
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2006-04-08 11:27 AM (#40104 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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I'm a person who got into horses as an adult.  Didn't know hooey at first.  I was amazed at the importance the horse/person relationship was.  It's not a machine... the horse is a living being, reacting to its rider. 

In your case the rider had no relationship & didn't know the right signals.  If the rider gives confusing signals, the horse just reacts as best it knows.  A well trained horse is like a high performance racing car.  It takes high skills to work it to its potential.  The prospective buyer wasn't up to standard of precision control input.  There is no overtrained horse here, just an under skilled rider.



Edited by hosspuller 2006-04-08 11:29 AM
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-08 4:50 PM (#40117 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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Wife and I keep telling ourselves that.BUT we run into the same responce a LOT over the years.Our gaited and Qtr stock bend,back,flex lightly,side pass etc.We watch THEM ride and don't see any thing unusal for a strange rider on a schooled horse trying to figure each other out.BUT keep getting words like shocked at how fast horses reaction time is,intimanated and such.Its frustating to breed,raise,train and try to sell a goodlooking animal that has a good start with the same comments over and over.Makes US feel like were doing something wrong.
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hconley
Reg. Feb 2005
Posted 2006-04-08 7:24 PM (#40122 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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Maybe the people who are interested in your horses, want a horse to finish themselves, or maybe your price is to high, or your marketing needs to change, I don't know
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-08 7:37 PM (#40123 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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Maybe we expect folks to know how to ride.We have had same type animals and folks come with their trainer and after their trainer rides them we have always gotton a thums UP.But most come by them selves and need help getting in the saddle.I actually just tried a differant approach.I went UP on her price.We'll see.
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carp
Reg. Apr 2006
Posted 2006-04-08 10:47 PM (#40135 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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To me overtrained means the horse has developed some bad habits due to being pushed too hard to fast--it's ring sour, or it evades the bit, etc.

It sounds to me like your horses are sensitive, not overtrained. They probably aren't suitable for every rider, especially people who have only ridden schoolies.  I myself tend to be heavy with my aids, a really bad habit.  I really have to be careful getting on a sensitive horse. However, I don't blame the horse for my incompetence as a rider if the horse reacts the same way every time I do the same thing.

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sable812
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2006-04-10 7:14 AM (#40172 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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I have finished several young horses that have been TWH show "culls". When I got them they were very sensitive and quick.  I worked hard to un train all of that.  My horses were trained with dressage methods, know how to back slowely, turn on the forehand, haunches, shoulder in.  They were not quick. 

I hate to agree with the Doc, but dressage horses are not supposed to be quick to respond.  They respond off of the leg with a slow good transition. 

If you are selling to a pleasure rider market, you need to have a nice transition from gaits and movements. 

I don't know what the reining market wants but i would think a reining horse would sell for more than $7500.  Your horses might be easy to sell in that market.

I myself would never buy a trained horse that had quick transitions.  I would either train my own or look somewhere else. 

One of the best complements I have had on a horse I sold was "  She is so supple."  Supple is not quick.  Supple is flexible and fluid. 

I have sold several trail horses for $8500 plus.  They were not hard to sell either.  I marketed them for the trail rider and what they want in a horse. 

It sounds like you are trying to seel the sports model to the sedan crowd.

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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-10 8:51 AM (#40177 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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To us their NOT quick.We ride a few our trainer OWNS and their quick to us! Your correct.Its in the riders skill.Neighbor(who's hauls part time said what you stated.He has been telling us to GO UP on price and try to attract a higher skilled person maybe.He said the same thing about the sedan crowd.I know the Doc had as issue when filly (while showing her to the Doc)back across the ring,out the door and turned still backing into the other door and back in very smooth and cadenced.The Lady Doc could not back her straight 6 feet when she tried her.
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sable812
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2006-04-10 9:37 AM (#40181 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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Maybe it is the difference in the riding styles. I doubt you could get a dressage horse to move correctly like a dressage rider could. That would not mean you are not a good rider. Dressage riders are great riders too. They just don't like how you have your horse trained. They want a smooth transition, not a quick one.
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sable812
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2006-04-11 6:23 AM (#40245 - in reply to #40181)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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How do you train your gaited horses. I have 2 friends looking for one.
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-11 8:18 PM (#40282 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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Kinda the same way as my Qtrs.Snaffle bite to start.Lots of figure eights,circles,bending,flexing,backing etc.Just no trot,LOL.Have two older well broke Tobi walking orse geldings for sale kinda.Wifes and mine more or less personal horses.Have had them 6 years.Full brothers.One is 16hhs and the other is 15.3.
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sable812
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2006-04-12 8:14 AM (#40310 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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How old are they, price, geldings? Are they broke to move quickly like your reining horse or slowely? Can they leave a group of horses? Can they be last? What price and where in GA are you located.
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-13 3:55 AM (#40360 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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Walkers as a rule are much faster walking etc.Mine will ride anywhere you put them.Going slow and in the rear their not always happy but will do as asked.4k each or $7500 for the pair.I'm near Athens Ga.(UGA)
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sable812
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2006-04-13 6:35 AM (#40364 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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what are their transitions like. I have had TWH for 45 years. I know they are faster. Will they dog walk in a group if they are not first, how old are they do you have pictures
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-14 1:34 AM (#40410 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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Sent you a p.m. Have photos etc.
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hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2006-04-16 8:44 AM (#40495 - in reply to #40282)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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I feel that you need to change your strategies a bit. Average people can't ride well trained horses because they either are intimidated or ruin them and then blame you for not training them right. My suggestions are these. Concentrate on one breed and, since you can get them broke, break them for the show pen. Then advertise to the show market. Your prices aren't too high if they are good broke horses with pedigrees, your market base is wrong. A dressage rider just won't get the leave the face alone and work off the legs part of a reiner. Just like a USEF (AHSA) person can't understand the AQHA hunter under saddle. The breed standards are just too different.
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-16 10:14 AM (#40498 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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My ads basicly say reining patterns down pat and ready for working cow,reining,trail etc.We get a lot of folkes that say they can ride.Basicly most are just a passenger.The DOC was mainly worried if she(filly)would get herd bound.I knew then.

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hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2006-04-16 6:43 PM (#40513 - in reply to #40498)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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It sounds terrible but when I sell a horse I kind of screen the customers by asking some questions to find out if I will be wasting my time. You may have to do this too.
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hounddog
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2006-04-17 4:57 AM (#40526 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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I try to.But its not like I have a line of folkes waiting to test drive.I have sold to folkes that had a coach(trainer) ready for the BOTH of them.
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chisum1
Reg. Mar 2006
Posted 2006-04-17 5:56 PM (#40577 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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I'm 57, been riding since I was about 7.  If I was looking at one of your horses, I would ask you about a couple of lessions so I could relate to the cues and training you have given your horses.  Sounds like your are doing a great job and the rider is not trained as well as the horse.  Just my opinion.
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lively
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2006-04-25 5:32 AM (#40901 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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Truthfully I wouldn't say overtrained I would say well trained. Most people just teach the horses stop,go left right and pick up their feet for you . Sad but true.  As for Doc...well all i can say is you advertise your horses as having the riening patterns down and such soo she should have done at least a little homework before visiting. As for a reining  horse not being supple and soft ...well they are to an extreme measure. Lighter aids is the key to having the responses not seem too fast. True dressage you are not really supposed to see the aids however an aid can be very strong without visually seeing it. A change in your seat by shifting your weight....an almost invisible pressure from the legs can in actuality be very strong. Point is  I think its a good thing your horses are so keen on the aids. Quite a feww young horses  end up needing strong aids just because they flat do not understand a light one. All I can say is good job!!

Lively

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Beth
Reg. Apr 2004
Posted 2006-04-27 10:22 PM (#41011 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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This is just my humble opinion but....if I was a dressage rider I would be looking for a horse with dressage training and build .....not a reining horse. These are two different disciplines. Not that you couldn't re-train the horse but why would you want to?
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skipster
Reg. Apr 2006
Posted 2006-04-30 2:47 PM (#41105 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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I agree with Beth, if this Doc was in the market to ride a dressage horse, she should have been looking for a horse trained in the discipline.

Don't let this experience with a pain-in-the-hiney seller get you second guessing your marketing or training. She was out of her element, and personally, when I look at and ride a horse for a client, unless there is an obvious training problem that will need further attention I don't pick apart a horse to the owner. It's unprofessional, rude and as far as the owner is concerned, that horse may have been perfectly siuted for their needs regardless of the reasons they put it up for sale. 

Remember, for every 5 people that will come look at your horse, you will be lucky if only 1 will be intelligent enough to even own a horse.

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terri s
Reg. Sep 2005
Posted 2006-05-01 10:29 AM (#41145 - in reply to #40099)
Subject: RE: Over trained?


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I'm with chisum; even an experienced rider on a well-trained horse needs to be sure he/she is cuing the way the animal is used to and it will always take a little time for the two to figure each other out. I would never think I could get on a strange animal and get a perfect ride the first time. I also think that there are horses that are trained to a level the rider is not yet used to dealing with; hence the term "schoolmaster".
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