Posted 2006-05-12 9:10 PM (#41650) Subject: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
New User
Posts: 4
Location: Arizona
I will be using a 04 F250 Crew cab,short box auto trans. 6 liter eng. Where do you think the break in a LQ trailer shortwall length corresponds to the need to go to a 1 ton suspension? Thanks.
Posted 2006-05-12 9:44 PM (#41651 - in reply to #41650) Subject: RE: Maximum trailer size
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 402 Location: Lockport, Illinois
You have to be more specific.
What make
What model(not comfort package) some manufactures have more that one 3/4 ton model
What year
What motor
Transmission
2 or 4 wheel drive
Rear end ratio
Bummper or Gooseneck
After knowing these, you may contact the manufacture to find out the maximum trailer weight
Posted 2006-05-12 9:50 PM (#41652 - in reply to #41650) Subject: RE: Maximum trailer size
Expert
Posts: 2689
Originally written by tobeinaz on 2006-05-12 10:10 PM
What is the maximum trailer weight that I can comfortably pull with a 3/4 ton PU?
Hi and Welcome.
WHICH 3/4 ton pick-up ?
A technical and legal answer is available from the vehicle manufacturer.
Your comfort is a personal thing and depends somewhat on your experiences and expectations of pulling trailers.
SOME folk want/expect almost sports car accelleration with 15,000 lbs on the hook, others can accept that a loaded truck is LOADED.
Posted 2006-05-13 9:55 AM (#41658 - in reply to #41652) Subject: RE: Maximum trailer size
New User
Posts: 4
Location: Arizona
Thanks Reg; 04 F250 Crew cab. short box auto trans. 6 liter eng. I guess the ? should be where do you think the break in the trailer shortwall length corresponds to the need to go to a 1 ton suspension? Thanks.
Posted 2006-05-13 1:37 PM (#41666 - in reply to #41658) Subject: RE: Maximum trailer size
Expert
Posts: 2689
Originally written by tobeinaz on 2006-05-13 10:55 AM
Thanks Reg; 04 F250 Crew cab. short box auto trans. 6 liter eng. I guess the ? should be where do you think the break in the trailer shortwall length corresponds to the need to go to a 1 ton suspension? Thanks.
Ummm, the flatlands of AZ or the 8,000 or so ft areas up around Flagstaff ?
The Ford web site can answer it weightwise, the trim level and options will affect the final weight - I sometimes characterise heavily furnished as "Oak, Marble and Tile". How many horses, how big, how much for tack, hay, water, etc. add it ALL up.
After that, if you're still under the manufacturer's ratings, it really DOES depend on what level of performance you're willing to put up with.
Personally I just LIKE a 1 ton anyway, even when hauling the 2 horse bumper-pull empty - it doesn't take THAT much more fuel than a 3/4 (if any) and 6 tires last longer than 4 if you rotate them regularly - although not 50% longer.
Posted 2006-05-13 6:14 PM (#41670 - in reply to #41666) Subject: RE: Maximum trailer size
New User
Posts: 4
Location: Arizona
Thanks Reg; I have pulled a 2 horse for over 30 years and 200K miles with a half ton. It works just fine. No point in not buying what you don't need unless you are careless with your money. I would like to know your best guess on SW length for a 3/4 ton. What I think you are saying is to look at the OEM GVWR? Is that correct?Thanks
Posted 2006-05-13 7:35 PM (#41671 - in reply to #41670) Subject: RE: Maximum trailer size
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Posts: 2689
Originally written by tobeinaz on 2006-05-13 7:14 PM
Thanks Reg; I have pulled a 2 horse for over 30 years and 200K miles with a half ton. It works just fine. No point in not buying what you don't need unless you are careless with your money. I would like to know your best guess on SW length for a 3/4 ton. What I think you are saying is to look at the OEM GVWR? Is that correct?Thanks
Yes, Ford's rating SHOULD stop you at the upper limit.
There is some fairly widely held belief that 80% of that is a good "comfort" level, i.e. you won't be at or too near the limit.
Since you press me - 6ft. short wall, but with some implicit assumptions; such as NOT also carrying a FULL 300 gallon fresh water tank, NOT putting 50 bales on a roof hay rack, etc.
(-:
OK, 8ft. if it is sparsely furnished and you don't stack everything you won't need on the trip, etc.
Posted 2006-05-13 9:06 PM (#41675 - in reply to #41650) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Member
Posts: 32 Location: Louisiana
I have a 2006 F250 Crew Cab w/shortbox with 6.0 Diesel, automatic and 3.73 rear end. I pull a 3 horse slant with 8' shortwall Exiss SS310 gooseneck 30' trailer with no problems as for as pulling the weight. It's not a race car on take off, but going to a 1 ton would not change the speed, only the ability of the truck to handle the weight better. However with the LQ added, it did put a little too much weight on the truck, so I added Air Bags/Springs and run about 40 to 50 psi in them and all is back level now. I've heard that with LQ trailers, 30 to 35% of the trailer weight is on the ball, whereas with LQ, approx 15 to 20% of the trailer weight is on the ball.
Posted 2006-05-14 8:01 AM (#41679 - in reply to #41673) Subject: RE: Maximum trailer size
Expert
Posts: 1719 Location: PA
What Reg was trying to imply is that you may be able to have a 10' LQ or you might only be able to do a 6' LQ. What really matters is the brand of trailer (because of the weight factor), the brand of LQ (conversion companies are very different and so are the materials they use), and the things included in your LQ (size of holding tanks, refrigerator size, LP tank size, etc.). For example, my trailer weighs about 6,500 without the LQ and around 13 with the LQ. I do have a slide on mine which weighs about 1,000 by itself. So, to ask how long the short wall can be is just to vaque without more info.
Posted 2006-08-21 8:22 PM (#47097 - in reply to #41650) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Member
Posts: 16
Location: NC
Just a heads up that I bought a 4 horse Exiss w/ a 7ft LQ and the dealer said that my SuperDuty would haul it no sweat... and it pulled it anywhere. The issue was stopping... I ended up buying an M2 Sportchassis because my family didn't want to give up riding. I explained that the trailer was going or I was going to purchase a truck that could SAFELY handle the trailer. The mfgs of light duty p/u trucks are smoking rope when they list the GVWRs of their trucks... Maybe they are safe in perfect condition on flat, straight roads w/o traffic, but think long & hard about the physics and dynamics of shifting weight masses behind you in an emergency situation. Add a blow out, slick conditions, wind, curves, downhill corners, accidents in front of you and you'll want a rig that will keep you and your horses safe. BTW - I'm not a dealer, I'm a father of young kids that share the road with too many 1 ton p/us that are towing WAY too much.
Posted 2006-08-21 8:36 PM (#47099 - in reply to #47097) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Veteran
Posts: 182
Originally written by tacklam on 2006-08-21 8:22 PM
Just a heads up that I bought a 4 horse Exiss w/ a 7ft LQ and the dealer said that my SuperDuty would haul it no sweat... and it pulled it anywhere. The issue was stopping... I ended up buying an M2 Sportchassis because my family didn't want to give up riding. I explained that the trailer was going or I was going to purchase a truck that could SAFELY handle the trailer. The mfgs of light duty p/u trucks are smoking rope when they list the GVWRs of their trucks... Maybe they are safe in perfect condition on flat, straight roads w/o traffic, but think long & hard about the physics and dynamics of shifting weight masses behind you in an emergency situation. Add a blow out, slick conditions, wind, curves, downhill corners, accidents in front of you and you'll want a rig that will keep you and your horses safe. BTW - I'm not a dealer, I'm a father of young kids that share the road with too many 1 ton p/us that are towing WAY too much.
I agree with you there. After some research I found that my f250 extended cab is over wt with 4 horses in my current 18 foot steel 3 horse trailer. I have seen alot of one tons pulling a 4 horse with lq or more and they are most likely over wt if they are hauling 4 horses or more and if they have a pretty big size to their lq. I have seen alot of people hauling horses with a half ton and a 16 ft gooseneck trailer.
Posted 2006-08-21 8:56 PM (#47100 - in reply to #47097) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
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Posts: 2689
Originally written by tacklam on 2006-08-21 8:22 PM
Just a heads up that I bought a 4 horse Exiss w/ a 7ft LQ and the dealer said that my SuperDuty would haul it no sweat... and it pulled it anywhere. The issue was stopping... I ended up buying an M2 Sportchassis because my family didn't want to give up riding. I explained that the trailer was going or I was going to purchase a truck that could SAFELY handle the trailer. The mfgs of light duty p/u trucks are smoking rope when they list the GVWRs of their trucks... Maybe they are safe in perfect condition on flat, straight roads w/o traffic, but think long & hard about the physics and dynamics of shifting weight masses behind you in an emergency situation. Add a blow out, slick conditions, wind, curves, downhill corners, accidents in front of you and you'll want a rig that will keep you and your horses safe. BTW - I'm not a dealer, I'm a father of young kids that share the road with too many 1 ton p/us that are towing WAY too much.
(When properly set up) the trailer brakes stop the trailer, the truck's brakes stop the truck and the portion of the trailer that the truck "carries" as payload on the coupler. I believe that you have enough truck brakes if they can trigger the ABS to the point of approaching lock-up when the truck is fully loaded - and the 1 ton Chev/GM CERTAINLY can do that.
If you're overloaded, if the trailer has inadequate brakes, if they're not set up properly, etc - - all bets are off )-:
Posted 2006-08-21 10:07 PM (#47104 - in reply to #47100) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Expert
Posts: 2953 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by Reg on 2006-08-21 7:56 PM
Originally written by tacklam on 2006-08-21 8:22 PM Just a heads up that I bought a 4 horse Exiss w/ a 7ft LQ and the dealer said that my SuperDuty would haul it no sweat... and it pulled it anywhere. The issue was stopping... I ended up buying an M2 Sportchassis because my family didn't want to give up riding. I explained that the trailer was going or I was going to purchase a truck that could SAFELY handle the trailer. The mfgs of light duty p/u trucks are smoking rope when they list the GVWRs of their trucks... Maybe they are safe in perfect condition on flat, straight roads w/o traffic, but think long & hard about the physics and dynamics of shifting weight masses behind you in an emergency situation. Add a blow out, slick conditions, wind, curves, downhill corners, accidents in front of you and you'll want a rig that will keep you and your horses safe. BTW - I'm not a dealer, I'm a father of young kids that share the road with too many 1 ton p/us that are towing WAY too much.
(When properly set up) the trailer brakes stop the trailer, the truck's brakes stop the truck and the portion of the trailer that the truck "carries" as payload on the coupler. I believe that you have enough truck brakes if they can trigger the ABS to the point of approaching lock-up when the truck is fully loaded - and the 1 ton Chev/GM CERTAINLY can do that. If you're overloaded, if the trailer has inadequate brakes, if they're not set up properly, etc - - all bets are off )-:
I'd like to add the point about dynamic weight transfer. Reg makes a good point about the weight the truck is carrying on the hitch pin. When one goes to the scales, one gets the static weight. That is the non-moving weight. When the rig is braking hard. there is a lot of weight transfer. The front brakes of a vehicle do the majority of the braking. (That's why the front brakes are larger and wear faster than the rear) Consider the trailer will also transfer its weight to the hitch under hard whoa !. You'll need enough truck brakes (and tires) to handle that transfered weight. I believe in more brakes on the the truck than skidding trailer wheels and losing control of the trailer.
Posted 2006-08-22 7:12 AM (#47110 - in reply to #47104) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Member
Posts: 16
Location: NC
Originally written by hosspuller on 2006-08-21 10:07 PM
Originally written by Reg on 2006-08-21 7:56 PM
Originally written by tacklam on 2006-08-21 8:22 PM Just a heads up that I bought a 4 horse Exiss w/ a 7ft LQ and the dealer said that my SuperDuty would haul it no sweat... and it pulled it anywhere. The issue was stopping... I ended up buying an M2 Sportchassis because my family didn't want to give up riding. I explained that the trailer was going or I was going to purchase a truck that could SAFELY handle the trailer. The mfgs of light duty p/u trucks are smoking rope when they list the GVWRs of their trucks... Maybe they are safe in perfect condition on flat, straight roads w/o traffic, but think long & hard about the physics and dynamics of shifting weight masses behind you in an emergency situation. Add a blow out, slick conditions, wind, curves, downhill corners, accidents in front of you and you'll want a rig that will keep you and your horses safe. BTW - I'm not a dealer, I'm a father of young kids that share the road with too many 1 ton p/us that are towing WAY too much.
(When properly set up) the trailer brakes stop the trailer, the truck's brakes stop the truck and the portion of the trailer that the truck "carries" as payload on the coupler. I believe that you have enough truck brakes if they can trigger the ABS to the point of approaching lock-up when the truck is fully loaded - and the 1 ton Chev/GM CERTAINLY can do that. If you're overloaded, if the trailer has inadequate brakes, if they're not set up properly, etc - - all bets are off )-:
I'd like to add the point about dynamic weight transfer. Reg makes a good point about the weight the truck is carrying on the hitch pin. When one goes to the scales, one gets the static weight. That is the non-moving weight. When the rig is braking hard. there is a lot of weight transfer. The front brakes of a vehicle do the majority of the braking. (That's why the front brakes are larger and wear faster than the rear) Consider the trailer will also transfer its weight to the hitch under hard whoa !. You'll need enough truck brakes (and tires) to handle that transfered weight. I believe in more brakes on the the truck than skidding trailer wheels and losing control of the trailer.
[/QUOTE
Guys, I also wanted to believe that my Superduty could handle the job, after all, the weights fell w/i the factory specs, I have airbags and Performance Friction rotors & pads on all 4 as well as a Jasper HD towing tranny. I have significant history pulling trailers and understand how to set up and use trailer brakes as well as eng brakes. Frankly, I didn't want to step up and pay the $$ for a correct rig - I had a ton of $$ already invested in the horse hobby for the family. It took one bad experiance and a bit of reflection to change my point of view. Afer all, how can you put a price on the safety of your family? How much would I've paid to change things if someone was hurt or killed because I was pushing the limits? What would happen if your 1 ton loaded to 90% of the factory limit couldn't stop in an emergency and mowed down a van full of attorney's kids on a church outing? Could the attorneys build a case of negligence against you in a 1 ton pulling 18K? Even if you could defend yourself by pointing the finger at the Mfg, you'd spend a ton of $$ defending yourself. The sportchassis (or similar rigs) are CHEAP insurance for both my family and other's families on the road.
Posted 2006-08-22 8:17 AM (#47112 - in reply to #41650) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Expert
Posts: 2689
Just for fun - and since we have a BRAKES thread currently running - and another one on air bags, consider this...
The rear pressure proportioning valve is typically operated by a lever mechanism that measures the ride height of the truck (on some trucks, perhaps not all). Essentially the truck's load is "weighed" in order to determine the rear brake hydraulic pressure, the load on the rear axle is deduced from ride height.
This seems logical enough, allow more hydraulic pressure to the rear brakes when the truck is fully loaded to get effective braking, reduce that pressure to avoid premature lock-up when the truck is empty - I like it.
Ahh, but.
What happens to that smart logic if/when air bags, helper springs, helwigs, supersprings, whatever are added ? The ride height is no longer a good representation on the load on the rear axle, THAT is what happens )-:
Y'know, I've never seen a document that describes how the proportioning valve's lever mechanism should be recalibrated. I havn't seen a device to modify the proportioning valve's action as a function of air bag pressure either (-:
So, what to do ?
Are my rear brakes still effective if I put 3,000 lbs on the pin and THEN add 80 psi to my air bags ?
{panicing in Massachusetts}
PS Not really, I think I know the answer (-:
Posted 2006-08-22 9:10 AM (#47115 - in reply to #41650) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Elite Veteran
Posts: 671 Location: THE GREAT NORTHWET, OREGON(THE REAL GODS COUNTRY)
Oh now now you know how we get scolded when We say BIGGER,or more power.You have to be comfortable with your setup,confidend that everything will work and give you peace of mind.
A lot of dealers will say you can pull with your truck,but take into consideration your weight.
When i bought My LQ I pulled it with a 3/4 ton then weighed it,empty 10,500 I started figuring all the addons food etc and went to a 1 ton dually.
loaded the trailer with everything and horses,went to scales.I was right on the mfg recomended weight.
So now I know I can drop a horse and carry less stuff or water and be in good shape.I have a steel 10x15 LQ with mid tack and slide out 3 horse with extended area.
I have pulled it over the mountains in oregon and feel real good in it's handling ability.I stoped it without the trailer brakes and it worked so I know that if my trailer brakes fail I can still stop.
Posted 2006-08-22 9:14 AM (#47116 - in reply to #41650) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Veteran
Posts: 246 Location: Northern IN.
EXCELLENT point Reg, I've pondered that very thing myself! It's similar to the way the air suspension works on my big truck, a valve is mounted on the axle with a rod fixed to the frame, as weight is added to the frame (via a trailer) the valve position is changed and more or less air is added to the air bags. Same concept on the brake porportioning valve. Now I can go under my rig and change the height of the rod on the valve for the suspension to compensate for desired air bag pressure with set load, shouldn't we be able to do the same for modified suspensions and the braking system? owt.
Posted 2006-08-22 9:14 AM (#47117 - in reply to #47112) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Member
Posts: 16
Location: NC
Originally written by Reg on 2006-08-22 8:17 AM
Just for fun - and since we have a BRAKES thread currently running - and another one on air bags, consider this...
The rear pressure proportioning valve is typically operated by a lever mechanism that measures the ride height of the truck (on some trucks, perhaps not all). Essentially the truck's load is "weighed" in order to determine the rear brake hydraulic pressure, the load on the rear axle is deduced from ride height.
This seems logical enough, allow more hydraulic pressure to the rear brakes when the truck is fully loaded to get effective braking, reduce that pressure to avoid premature lock-up when the truck is empty - I like it.
Ahh, but.
What happens to that smart logic if/when air bags, helper springs, helwigs, supersprings, whatever are added ? The ride height is no longer a good representation on the load on the rear axle, THAT is what happens )-:
Y'know, I've never seen a document that describes how the proportioning valve's lever mechanism should be recalibrated. I havn't seen a device to modify the proportioning valve's action as a function of air bag pressure either (-:
So, what to do ?
Are my rear brakes still effective if I put 3,000 lbs on the pin and THEN add 80 psi to my air bags ?
{panicing in Massachusetts}
PS Not really, I think I know the answer (-:
Great point Reg. I have experiance in offroad racing trophy trucks (purpose built race cars w/ fiberglass panels that make them look like modern p/u trucks) and always felt sorry for the people who would modify their trucks to make them more like the race equipment. These guys would put big tires & shocks on trucks and experiance premature failures due to the geometry changes. The mfgs dump millions of $$$ into engineering and aftermarket companies state that they can improve performance with a fraction of the R&D $$ invested. Often the performance is improved in a specific area; however, there is a huge cost to this improvement and that cost may start a domino effect in other areas. I strongly suspect that my airbags both help and hurt my p/u's towing performance because they are aftermarket. The key part of this is that I modified my truck because I thought it was inadequate for the rig I was pulling... An attorney would rip me to shreds in court for this reason in addition to asking me if I was a qualified engineer to make the changes I've made for the application. Fact is that if you want to play with the big trailers, you'd better be preparerd to shell out the $$ to do it correctly.
Posted 2006-08-23 6:48 AM (#47180 - in reply to #41650) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
Expert
Posts: 2689
OK, so DO air springs defeat the rear proportioning valve's height (load) sensing function and thereby diminish effective braking on a loaded truck ?
(Regardless of whether or not a trailer is attached.)
If so does the truck become unstable in an emergency braking situation ?
(as a result of the primary braking force being at the front and the load being at the rear having a high MOI (swinging weight) about the truck's front brakes).
WHY don't the Firestone installation instructions warn of this ?
WHERE are the recalibration instructions ?
HAS anyone sued Firestone or anyone else over this ?
or AM I just dreaming up hypothetical stuff (again) ?
(-:
Posted 2006-08-23 5:23 PM (#47267 - in reply to #47097) Subject: RE: Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
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Posts: 2
Location: whittier california
You are right. I own a 3 horse with 14 lv/qtr. 4-Star, plus 8 ft. hay pod, and heavy. I bought a GMC 4500 Laredo Conversion, with exhaust brake. It goes down the 8 % grades slowly, without using my brakes and smoothly. My former one ton, that I dearly loved, could not handle this. I need safety, I'm also a grandma that ropes and cuts.
Maximum LQ trailer short wall length-3 H slant?
