Posted 2009-03-09 11:21 PM (#101013) Subject: Hayes Canyon Questions
Elite Veteran
Posts: 781 Location: La Cygne, KS
Time to go back to Shawnee National Forest this year. We are thinking about staying at Hayes Canyon this time.
Can someone tell me if you can ride to the Indian Kitchen trail head from Hayes or do you have to go through Circle B campround and then head south on trail 001? We've ridden all around Circle B (mostly lost - this was before the trails were marked) and was wanting to explore some new trails to get to Indian Kitchen. The trail map doesn't show trails leading from Hayes.
Then we want to explore the west side near Jackson hole. About how long of a ride is it from Hayes camp to Jackson hole? What is Crows knob???
Also, have the pens been repaired at Hayes? Read some posts on Trail Directory that the pens with the metal bars and wood were dangerous. Were the pens clean and mud free? I called today and there are no more covered sites during the time we are going. So I'm a little concerned with the set-up of the uncovered pens. Any info from Shawnee Riders would be much appreciated.
Posted 2009-03-10 8:54 AM (#101030 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 326 Location: Gallatin, TN
Hey PonyTammy:
You may want to drop Patty at Hayes Canyon an e-mail and ask her the trail questions you have. She has been great with me since I started e-mailing her 1001 questions about Hayes as well as Shawnee. info@hayescanyon.com
When are you going to be there? We are going for a week in September. This will be our first trip to Shawnee, any suggestions?
Posted 2009-03-10 10:11 AM (#101042 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 376 Location: Missouri
The trail from Hayes to Indian Kitchen is well marked. You do not have to go by Circle B to get to Indian Kitchen. Indian Kitchen from Hayes is a easy 1.5 hour walk from Hayes. There are 3 trails into and out of Indian Kitchen. If you go out the south trail you can go to the Rock House, or you can go to the east, up by the Saw Mill, then up thru the Pine Tunnel and down Hog Back Ridge and over to the River to River trail and then take it back to Hayes. If you go out the west trail it makes a small loop and takes you by the Trail head and back to the trail you came out on. If you want to shorten the ride out of the Kitchen and take the one by the saw mill, you can take a left(north) at the base of the saw mill road and it takes you across to the River to River.
IF you want to extend the ride, when you go down Hog Back,instead of taking a left onto the River to River, you can take a right and go over to Ben's Place.
If you want to extend the ride to the south from the Kitchen, instead of taking a left to go to the Rock House, you can go straight ahead, cross Little Lusk and go over to War Bluff. The ride from Hayes to War Bluff is 3.5 to 4 hours one way moving at a pretty good clip when the trails are open. If you make the loop back from War Bluff, it's about 5 hours back.
There is a Jackson Hole and there is also a Jackson Falls. Jackson Hole from Hayes is less than an hour. Jackson Falls is near the RR tracks to the west. That is about a 5 hour ride one way. Cove Hollow is also near Jackson Falls. As is Jesse James HideOut and Sand Cave. They are all very worthwhile rides.
Crows Knob is on the River to River trail about 2.5 hours from Hayes at a walk. Crows Knob is a big rock formation. You can walk up to the top. It was a favorite gathering place for the black folks that did live in the area. Up on top is about 2 acres of relative flat rock that made a good place for meetings. You can hear and see for miles from up top.
You will get a trail map when you register at Hayes. There's a lot of well marked trails. You have a large selection of trails to chose from. There are also many unmarked trails. If you feel adventuresome a GPS is a good idea. Fortunately, they are now marked well enough that finding your way around is relatively easy, even with, the large number of unmarked ones.
Nearly all of the sucker rod pens have been replaced with wood plank pens. There are still a few, but not many. The pens are well kept and rocked. Very few get nasty in heavy rains. Most sites have 4 pens and you can rotate your horses if you have less than 4 head.
Posted 2009-03-10 11:41 AM (#101052 - in reply to #101042) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Elite Veteran
Posts: 781 Location: La Cygne, KS
Thank you all for the replies. I can't wait to go! Very glad to hear that there are several routes from Hayes to Indian Kitchen and other trails too. I'll be sure to print out the respones and take them with us.
Hope the weather is nice. Just had the Coggins pulled on the horses this morning. Now I need to work on getting my MFTs in shape.
Posted 2009-03-10 3:03 PM (#101065 - in reply to #101042) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 326 Location: Gallatin, TN
Originally written by bbsmfg3 on 2009-03-10 10:11 AM
..... The ride from Hayes to War Bluff is 3.5 to 4 hours one way moving at a pretty good clip when the trails are open. If you make the loop back from War Bluff, it's about 5 hours back. There is a Jackson Hole and there is also a Jackson Falls. Jackson Hole from Hayes is less than an hour. Jackson Falls is near the RR tracks to the west. That is about a 5 hour ride one way. Cove Hollow is also near Jackson Falls. As is Jesse James HideOut and Sand Cave. They are all very worthwhile rides. Crows Knob is on the River to River trail about 2.5 hours from Hayes at a walk. .
Hey bbsmfg3,
What kind of horses do you ride? When you say a pretty good clip are you talking like a running walk for a walking horse? Our group has racking and walking horses but we don't ride in a fast gait all the time.
Posted 2009-03-10 4:29 PM (#101068 - in reply to #101065) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 376 Location: Missouri
"When you say a pretty good clip are you talking like a running walk for a walking horse?"
Depends on the group, but the times I gave you above would be about 10 to 12 mph for the "good clip". That's about half of the time, the other half is walking. Our walk is 4 to 7 mph depending on the terrain. In general, about half of the miles in Shawnee are smooth enough and open enough you can rack on.
Now if we want to get, "with it" we can make the round trip to War Bluff in less than 4 hours. Now that's racking on at about 18 to 22 mph when the trail is clear. And the round trip to Jackson Falls in about 6 hours. A lot of the trails at, and around, Jackson Falls are rocky and slow going(2 to 3 mph)
I did not mention there is a bunch of trails to the south and west of Petty Coat Junction. A lot of nice riding in that area. That's south of Crows Nest, and west of Hayes Creek.
There is another bunch of nice trails over north east of North Deer Camp.
You can ride for months around this area and never ride them all. I haven't even mentioned the vast number of unmarked trails. The Forest Service has a full time crew of 6 plus I don't know how many, part time summer help. This crew is doing nothing but building new trails and repairing damage to existing trails.
The trails to the north are not cleared very well and you really need to know your way around to ride them. Easy to get temporarily misplaced up there..
If your riding ex padded walking horses, you might need pads. Their feet tend to be a bit ouchy in the rocks. BUT the rocks in Shawnee are nothing compared to the ones here in Missouri. WE have and over abundance of very sharp rock. You know, like flint rock.
Posted 2009-03-12 9:06 AM (#101177 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Regular
Posts: 64 Location: West TN
WOW, that's rocking on. We rode to War Bluff from Little Lusk, which is further north. We ride mules. They walk out at a good pace, but not any where near those speeds. It took us around 10 hours, we stopped for lunch, took maybe a couple of breaks real short. I would never do that again. Love to ride and like the 6 - 8 hour ride, but that was a bit much, for me and my mules. It Would not take that long from Hayes. but it is quite a ride.
Your not far from Indian Kitchen from Hayes. Lot of nice riding out of Hayes, so have a GREAT trip.
Posted 2009-03-14 12:34 PM (#101363 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 376 Location: Missouri
Our normal round trip ride to War Bluff from Hayes Canyon is between 6 to 8 hours, depending on the number of side trails we take. That includes about an hour for lunch and many rest breaks. From Hayes to War Bluff is about the same distance as from Little Lusk to War Bluff. You can make better time from Little Lusk if you take the right trails. The trails from Little Lusk are more open and you can get out of a walk for longer distances. A lot depends on the trails you take to get there and back. There's a lot of different ways to get there.
Between either camp and War Bluff there are a blue gillion trails to explore.
Posted 2009-03-15 10:09 AM (#101401 - in reply to #101363) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Elite Veteran
Posts: 781 Location: La Cygne, KS
Hi Bob, do you have any GPS coordinates for the destination sites? Hayes map has some of them, but was wondering if there are coordinates for each trail intersection that is marked on the map. I hate getting lost!
Also, does anyone know if the Garmin National Parks Central v3, show the new trails that are marked on the forest service map. I'm inquiring about those trails that are marked with the numbers like trail 472C, 405 etc. Or are those trails numbers only for markers on the trail? Just trying to figure out how the trail numbers relate to the trail itself. So in essance, are there trail markers on the trail when you come to an intersection like Buffalo River has?
Posted 2009-03-15 11:03 AM (#101402 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 376 Location: Missouri
You no long need the tail numbers. All of the designated trails are marked with signs(nice signs). We've been riding those trails so long, I don't need the GPS to find our way around and have not put any info on the GPS.
To the best of my knowledge none the downloadable topo maps show any of the new trails(marked in the last 4 to 5 yrs).
You'll have no problem following the marked trails. However, going from either Hayes or Little Lusk to War Bulff there are sections of the trail that are not marked as a trail to War Bluff. You can follow the trail maps to get there. I'm sure there are some maps with coordinates on them, I've just never looked for them.
Posted 2009-03-15 7:08 PM (#101429 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Elite Veteran
Posts: 781 Location: La Cygne, KS
I'm getting old and must need glasses cause I don't see War Bluff on the Shawnee National Forest Map. Is it on east or west side of Hayes? Do you know the trail number? What is neat about this site?
I'm so looking forward to our return trip to the Shawnee. I look at the trail map everyday and dream about the cool sites we will see. :)
Posted 2009-03-16 4:16 PM (#101487 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 376 Location: Missouri
Good news, Lat/lon info is on the Foreset Service map of designated trails.
War Bluff is nothing more than a big ole rock. If you ride up on top you can see the country side for many, many miles. Also close by is the carving of the Indian on a large Beech tree. The carving has been there for decades. We keep looking for the Indian maiden to go with this one, but alas, never found it. It is simply a neat place to explore.
Posted 2009-05-27 12:28 PM (#105542 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Elite Veteran
Posts: 781 Location: La Cygne, KS
Just got back from Hayes Canyon and Shawnee National Forest.
Had a great time, even though some of the trails were very muddy and lots of downed trees from a horrible wind storm that ripped through there a few weeks earlier.
Trails are very well marked and the maintained ones with small rocks were great to gait on! One thing my horse learned this trip was to cross small wooden bridges. She had never seen these before (only big concrete bridges) and we worked through going slowly over them instead of skirting across. That's a young horse for ya - Gotta teach them everything.
I really enjoyed the wider trails were we could gait along. Saw some gorgeous scenary - water falls, baby racoon, numerous colorful birds, flowers and a cute camp toad.
We had covered pens that still had the metal bars that would come lose and the mats were too slick for my preference, so next time we will just ask for dirt pen or stalls with a different type of surface. Every time my mare went to scratch her ear or her neck (she is a hound dog!!), she would slide back and bump into the bars. I was really worried about her getting caught under the bars if she laid down and slipped trying to get up. That is the only negative thing I found with Hayes. Folks are great, camp was very clean, quiet, and trails leading out of camp are gorgeous.
Can't wait to go back.... now if I could by pass St. Louis area all together, I'd be more inclined to go back more often!
Posted 2009-05-27 2:59 PM (#105551 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690 Location: missouri
Hey... just go to Springfield, Mo/ south on 65 to hwy 60 east all the way to Sikeston,Mo,go north on hwy 55 to the first Cape Girardeau exit east..over the new bridge..con't east towards Paducah,Ky then north to Hayes Canyon. It will save you about two hours or so.
Posted 2009-05-28 9:38 PM (#105664 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Veteran
Posts: 123 Location: illinois
I have heard that it may be hard to get a bigger trailer into Hayes? Do you know if there would be any problems? Also how close are the campsites,can you open up your awnings? I've heard that they pack them in pretty tight.
Posted 2009-05-29 12:57 PM (#105693 - in reply to #105664) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Elite Veteran
Posts: 781 Location: La Cygne, KS
We didn't have a problem getting our trailer in and there were several 4-5 horse with large LQs there too. Really depends on the camping spot you are in. If you tell the hosts how big your rig is they will put you in an appropriate spot.
A large majority of the camp has permanent campers (mainly RVs). So I wouldn't say they are packed in since some of the regular campers may not even be there when you visit. It was very quiet in the evenings, even on Memorial weekend. It was full, but not over crowded like some other camps in the area.
Sites in the D area are adequately spaced with enough room for awning. A area is a bit tighter, but all areas are large enough for an awning. Most sites have shade trees so that could be a limiting factor on being able to put an awning down. We were so shady that we never had to put the awning out.
Posted 2009-06-01 1:45 PM (#105796 - in reply to #101013) Subject: RE: Hayes Canyon Questions
Member
Posts: 16
Location: Palmyra, WI
Ponytammy,
Like you, I had not been to the Shawnee sinsce before USFS took over and
the trails became marked. I took my daughter, who is just getting back into riding after 15 years of raising children. We Stayed at Hayes Canyon and were very pleased. We had sewer, water & electric and covered stalls
right at our campsite. Spotless shower house and new washer & dryer.
They also have ice if you need it. We did go to Indian Kitchen by following the trail that goes North from Hayes and takes you toward Circle B..you can cut off before Circle B and ride along the road (the one that takes you up to Circle B) for about 100 yds.... and the trail to Indian Kitchen goes off to your right.
It is marked so not hard to follow...I am not familiar enough with the area
to get very brave as far as taking "short-cuts". We were able to see everything we wanted to see by following the map. Since our horses were not legged up (coming from Wisconsin in Mid-April)we kept our rides reasonable in distance. Our favorites were Peter's Cave and Hidden Canyon.
I know there are alot of hard feelings by local folks about the changes
to the trails, but I was amazed at the amount of work that went into trail reconstruction and the high line areas are very safe for the horses and well thought out. I hope you have a great time and I am sure you will be able to find your way around without any problems.
Hayes Canyon Questions
I've heard that they pack them in pretty tight.