I had never heard of this before, but I know now that my horse has it. In the late fall when we bring all the horse in for the winter (pastures get about a foot deep in mud) he gets really frustrated and starts to spin in circles, biting his sides, bucking with one or both feet and squealing. This is usually when I let him out in the roundpen or arena for some excercise, but sometimes in his stall too. I keep him blanketed, and that helps prevent him from grabbing actual flesh. The local vet said it's a bad habit like cribbing, etc. I read an atricle about it on the web by Dr Sue McDonnell, a vet at University of Pennsylvania. My horse has the classic intermale behaviour, acting out a stud fight in the wild, except he is alone and a gelding. And no, he's not proud cut. In the spring when we put them out 24/7, he gradually stops over a period of a week. It is one of the the most bizzare things I have seen in a horse. I read that it is not that uncommon... for example, birds do it by pulling their feathers out, people cut themselves, pull their eyelashes out, etc. Just alarming to see a 1000 lb animal do it. I worry he'll hurt his legs spinning and bucking in a frenzy. Yesterday the barn owner put a big (8' x 8') mirror up so riders could watch their technique. My horse went crazy for the mirror... he loved that handsome horse in the mirror, trying to smell him, and then he let out a scream and tried to bite his reflection. He seemed to really like looking at himself, and stood there for over an hour, looking in the mirror. Birds often have a mirror in their cage, but I never saw a horse with a mirror. What's the opinion out there on this? For the most part, the mirror seemed to soothe him, once he figured out the horse didn't want to fight - hahaha.
Posted 2005-11-28 6:38 AM (#33498 - in reply to #33493) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455 Location: Ontario - east of TO
Sounds like an outdoor board situation in a herd would help him a lot. Have you tried that yet?
I have heard of stall mirrors - made of a "non glass" material - basically something that will not break so you don't have to worry about then hurting themselves on it. A google search would likely find you some retailers
Posted 2005-11-28 8:43 AM (#33504 - in reply to #33497) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
When he starts this behavior, if left alone, he will carry on for 10-15 minutes. If something distracts him, he will stop right away. When he's outside all the time, it gradually fades out of his daily routine. The farm where I board him is only 10 minutes away from home, and they take good care of the horses, feed really good hay at the same times every day, turn them out when possible, etc. I had him in a pasture board situation but it was 30 minutes away, and I was not able to check him every day and his care was not up to par. I am trying to keep him close to home but also not have this behavior problem or at least have some other things for him to do. I am going to find a plexiglass mirror, and maybe put one of those big rubber apple toys in for him... something for him to play with.
Posted 2005-11-28 11:03 AM (#33510 - in reply to #33493) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455 Location: Ontario - east of TO
Have you talked to the B.O at the current stable... Maybe they would be open to an outdoor board situation - if they have another horse to be his buddy - offer to still keep your stall (i.e. pay the same money), but just have the horse out 24/7 - an in only for grain. Doesn't hurt to ask... as it sounds like your horse would benefit.I'm an outdoor convert of 3 years now - and I wouldn't go back... even in the cold winters we get here - can go as low as -40 deg C (though rarely thankfully) and mine are out - no blankets with shelter... and happier and healthier for it.
Posted 2005-11-28 9:15 PM (#33541 - in reply to #33510) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
I talked with her tonight, and she suggested we try moving him this coming weekend, to the only outdoor paddock with shelter, on a trial basis. There will be a pony out in small pasture next to him so he won't be alone. It means walking out behind the barns in the dark and in the mud to see him every night on my way home from work, but I think he will be happier. The stalls are not muddy, just the area in front which he will have to walk through to get to the stall. I think it'll take him a week or two to phase out the spinning now that he has started again. Also, we decided that no grain and lots of good hay will keep him busy eating a little longer. His weight is good, and he's nice and round for winter, so he should be okay. If he starts to drop weight, I will add grain to his diet again. I remember a trainer telling me not to keep this horse in the barn, but it's hard when board is hard to find and what is available is basically stalls with some turnout.
Posted 2005-11-29 1:08 PM (#33567 - in reply to #33493) Subject: re: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Regular
Posts: 55 Location: Kingston, Ontario
I had a gelding that did exactly the same thing..he would spin and paw and bite himself. (sometimes taking the hair right off!!!)The history on this horse was: gelded as a 2 year old due to undescended testicle,had to be re-gelded as a 3 year old. (didn't get it all in the 1st surgery)This horse was turned out 24/7.This did not make a difference except that turn out kept him from kicking the stall walls to pieces..(Another symptom was he would kick out with a hind leg...for no reason at all. I don't even think that he was aware of it...)I tried to correct it by using kicking strapes (chains on the hocks). As soon as the straps were removed, he would do it again ...The only way that I could keep him unmarked was to keep a blanket on him...I believe that it was a stud-like habit that was retained even after he was gelded...I kept him for 7 years and never saw any change/improvement in his behaviour...I eventually sold the horse.... sorry I can't give you a better ending to the story....but I was relieved to be rid of the horse.....
Posted 2005-11-29 1:48 PM (#33569 - in reply to #33493) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455 Location: Ontario - east of TO
Equigal - That doesn't sound like a stud behavior to me - We've had 2 breeding stallions and never saw that behavior - even with two of them in one barn during breeding season... That's a behavior/habit all on it's own.
Cowgirl - is there any way you can have that pony in the same paddock with your horse - if both are amicable they would both likely be happier - though buddies in a nearby paddock is certainly better than alone. Good luck - sounds like you've found yourself a great understanding barn owner.
Posted 2005-11-30 7:38 AM (#33597 - in reply to #33493) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Regular
Posts: 81
You are very fortunate to have such an understanding BO. I have to say, I have never heard of anything like what you're describing. I have a horse that's claustrophobic and has to have a run-in stall, but his behavior isn't anything like what you're describing:(
This is just a thought, but have you considered getting him acupunctured? I don't even know for what or if it would work.
I am a huge supporter of hollistic approaches if the tradtional methods don't work for an issue.
The entire story is too long, but last summer I had one of my horses acupunctured. This was my first experience doing that to a horse. His was for a low grade kidney infection that evidently had been off and on for the 10-1/2 years I owned him.
He is no longer a Jekyll/Hyde personality, his summer allergy bumps disappeared within 24 hours, and he is now so void of smegma, that I don't have to clean him.
The benefits of the acupuncture went way beyond my expectations.
I'm not saying your horse has this problem; what I am suggesting is that if you can find a really good hollistic practitioner, there might be a chance that acupuncture can help tremendously.
Posted 2005-11-30 11:50 PM (#33638 - in reply to #33569) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
A friend knew of an Andalusion stud who bit at his chest, ripping himself up unless he was blanketed; basically the same type of behaviour. Actually, I think he tore his blankets up too. From what I read, it is sometimes associated with studs or geldings who were studs a little longer than usual, but not always. My horse was gelded as a 2 year old and he had already developed the habit. He does kick out with one or both hind feet like a buck, and squeals at the same time. It reminds me of a 2 year old having a tantrum. I can say he has always stopped after a period of a week or two, once he is out 24/7. We are going to move him tomorrow, so time will tell. I think the pony will have to stay in the adjoining paddock. The barn owner wouldn't want her to get hurt, nor do I. I think my horse would be fine with her but one kick is all it would take. I am keeping my fingers crossed that this helps him.
Posted 2005-11-30 11:57 PM (#33639 - in reply to #33497) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
In response to how old he is, he's a 7 year old Arab gelding. To the best of my knowledge, he has had the habit since he was a 2 year old stud. He acts up until I stop him (a shout or clap of the hands) or until he tires out... it could be for 15 minutes, franctic circling, kicking out, bucking, squealing, etc. He can actually work himself up into a lather if I leave him alone in the arena that long, like when I am cleaning stalls. I may also look into herbal calming agents but don't know a thing about them. It'll take some research before I venture in to that area.
Posted 2005-12-02 10:22 PM (#33697 - in reply to #33493) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Expert
Posts: 1989 Location: South Central OK
Load his pen with toys! His mind needs to be busy solving things or it turns on itsself. Leave him a traffic cone or a stall ball. (If it wasn't the mind you wouldn't be able to distract him from the behaviour. Break his boredom!)
Posted 2005-12-03 6:40 PM (#33716 - in reply to #33697) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
Well, so far so good. He's been out for 2 days now, and seems fine. No spinning and biting himself, no bucking and squealing... it is great to see him in a better frame of mind. He spends his time now standing at the edge of the stall opening, watching carefully for lions, tigers and bears out in the woods. At least that keeps his mind busy - hahaha. He also spenda a lot of time standing next to the little pony, who is in the paddock next to his. *
Posted 2005-12-04 7:42 AM (#33727 - in reply to #33493) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Veteran
Posts: 212 Location: novinger, mo
We had an ARab stallion who also self-mutilated as you described. We bought him after he had been in a stall for 7 months (with no turnout!) After gelding him we pastured him outside and only brought him in for feeding. He would go to the corner of the fence several times a day and resume the behavior. All in all, it got much better after he was gelded and after he lived outside.
Posted 2005-12-05 9:06 PM (#33769 - in reply to #33493) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Location: KY
Suggest you try vitamin B1 the kind for people, about 500 mg a day (the cheap kind from the discount store) If it is going to help, you will see something in about 10 days. B1 is a water soluable vitamin so the body excretes what it doesn't need. We have used as much as 1000 mg on particularly anxious horses and sometimes I've added B6. B1 and B6 are often major ingredients in the horse "calmatives." Good luck.
Posted 2005-12-05 11:01 PM (#33772 - in reply to #33493) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Regular
Posts: 52 Location: Loxahatchee, Fl.
I really believe that fist you should shave him where he is going for himself. With these areas shaved close the vet will get a better look at what is going on. If the vet cand see anything you should ask him to do skin scraping and qne blood. This may start narrowing it down a bit.
Posted 2005-12-06 12:14 AM (#33773 - in reply to #33769) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
I'll look into the vitamin B1... I've never looked at the ingredients of "calmatives" and am surprised that B vitamins are a major ingredient. I always thought the B vitamins gave you a boost of energy. It would be wonderful if a simple vitamin supplement helped him out. He is doing quite well the past week after being turned out in a paddock with big box stall. As for the shaving suggestion, I don't think I need to shave him to see what is going on where he's biting himself. When he's out he doesn't do it so I am convinced it has nothing to do with his skin... it's confinement that makes him crazy. Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions :)
Posted 2005-12-10 11:57 AM (#33926 - in reply to #33493) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Member
Posts: 15
Location: Union Grove, WI
You might think this is a stupid question, but are you sure that he was cut 100%??? I know of three cases where both testicles didn't drop and they only got one. They have to surgically remove the second one. In all three of these cases the people who bought these horses "thought" the horse was gelded, but they weren't. Two of these people absorbed the cost to have their horse fixed. the horses both turned out to be as sweet as candy after that. The other owner thinks that this is great. That horse beats up all the other geldings in the pasture and herds the mares around like they are his. He won't even let the geldings get to the water. The horse needs to be managed. When he is in his stall he too is completely crazy until the next day when he gets out again. They even put him on sweet feed, duh. His owner is completely clueless. You might want to check that option out. It might cost you, but it might be worth it in the long run. Just a thought. Have a safe and great holiday season.
Posted 2005-12-11 11:22 PM (#33970 - in reply to #33926) Subject: RE: Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
He was gelded completely. The vet held up his "jewels" after the procedure and claimed those were the biggest he had seen in a long time. He is not a herd boss of gelding or mares. He is a pill (has the little big man syndrome) across the fence, but when he's actually in contact with the group, he falls into line, right behind the big boss mares :)
He knows who wears the pants in his pasture :))) Thanks for the suggestion though.
Equine Self-Mutilation Syndrome
