'
1
Forums Albums Skins 1
Search Register Logon


You are logged in as a guest. Logon or register an account to access more features.
OTHER FORUMS:    Barrel Horses  -   Trucks   -   Cutting  -   Reining  -   Roping 
'
rear truck suspension when towing

Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Last activity 2012-03-04 9:58 PM
23 replies, 14545 views

View previous thread :: View next thread
   General Discussion -> Trailer Talk  Click to return to Barrel Talk
Refresh
Message format
 
millbrow
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2012-02-29 11:10 AM (#141562)
Subject: rear truck suspension when towing


Member


Posts: 20

Location: GA
I have a 2010 3500 Dodge dually 4x4 with a tow package. Is there any reason why I should have to add additional suspension kit to my rear suspension? The trailer weight is 7000 lbs and it drops the rear about 6 inches when hitched.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
wyndancer
Reg. Apr 2007
Posted 2012-02-29 12:58 PM (#141564 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 406
100100100100
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Because today's trucks are not the same as the trucks your father drove.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2012-02-29 1:23 PM (#141565 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Expert


Posts: 3853
200010005001001001002525
Location: Vermont
Originally written by millbrow on 2012-02-29 11:10 AM

I have a 2010 3500 Dodge dually 4x4 with a tow package. Is there any reason why I should have to add additional suspension kit to my rear suspension? The trailer weight is 7000 lbs and it drops the rear about 6 inches when hitched.
You should also confirm your actual pin weight by going to the scales fully loaded...
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2012-03-01 11:01 AM (#141585 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Expert


Posts: 5870
50005001001001002525
Location: western PA

You certainly have enough truck for that sized trailer, whether the 7K towing weight is empty or full. As far as living with the suspension squat, it all boils down to what you're comfortable with and how the truck reacts when it is under a load.

I have my truck set up so it squats a maxium of 4" under any load.

In relating my suspension installation to this forum, my veracity has been "unequivocally" challenged. I was told my installation was impossible, that a 4" deflection is an "unacceptable" amount of deflection, with one inch being proper, a rough empty ride is my only recourse, my headlights will bother oncoming traffic, and if I carry a load of dog food, my ride will be uncomfortable. In addition I'm now required to state that my installation is not normal, and I should post disclaimers to other potential owners of this difference.

Fortunately all of these statements are nonsence.

There are a few suspension additions that can reduce the amount of suspension squat, should you deem it necessary. Air bags, shocks and Timbrens are among the choices. I choose to alter my truck's suspension when I first started carried campers. Even though I purchased the camper and towing options, I still had an unconfortable ride.

The camper weighed about one ton, just about the level in which the aux springs initially contacted the main spring packs. In spite of the sway bars, the camper would roll  the back of the truck, flexing the springs first on one side of the truck, then the other when cornering, encountering winds or the bow waves of oncoming trucks. If the truck were additionally weighted down with a BP trailer, both springs were further compressed and the problem was less noticeable.

Timbrens were installed, set at the level just before the aux overload springs were contacted. This resolved the rolling problem and ensures that now, regardless of the weight being carried, my truck doesn't squat any more than that allotment. The empty ride is unchanged from the factory suspension.

A suspension needs a certain amount of travel to be effective. It keeps the tires on the road over rough passages, provides stability, reduces the shock loads onto the undercarriage and components, and provides for the comfort of the passengers.

For over a century, engineers have pondered the correct formula for a comfortable ride, handling and load capacity. A one inch travel can be akined to horse drawn buck boards, a regression of centuries. Over a million vehicles are sold every month. Except for some high performance varients, most have suspension travels that exceed 4". A newer Ford PU has a suspension travel of ~12".

If your truck is stable and not overloaded with a 6" squat, and you're comfortable with its performance, enjoy what you have. Others will be glad to spend your money on improving what isn't broken. If you have any reservations, they can easily be alleviated.  BOL

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
wyndancer
Reg. Apr 2007
Posted 2012-03-01 12:29 PM (#141587 - in reply to #141585)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 406
100100100100
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Gard,

Here's the deal, at least according to one dealer that had installed many, many sets of Timbren "springs". They don't install them anymore, because when they install them, per the manufacturers guidelines, as the trucks age the ride roughens...and it causes a callback to them from the customer to remedy that rough ride. Why does the ride roughen as the vehicle ages? The leaf spring looses some of it's arch over time, and the air gap, as provided by the manufacturer, decreases to the point at which the timbren is in nearly constant contact.

I'm glad that you have found a method in which your application of the Timbren spring works for you....but your installation would not be the customary/normal/usual installation.

Glad to see you agree that your installation is not normal, nor within the mfg's installation procedure.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
millbrow
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2012-03-01 12:37 PM (#141588 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Member


Posts: 20

Location: GA
All, thanks for the comments. I have decided to go with "Helper" Helwig springs to take some of the load off the suspension. It is a lot more expensive than the Timbren, but I think they will be better, although I did put Timbren on my other truck and they have been ok, but a bit rough without a load.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
paysonw
Reg. Aug 2010
Posted 2012-03-01 6:11 PM (#141591 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Regular


Posts: 61
2525
Location: Pueblo, CO

I just ordered rear airbags for my Ram 3500 dually to combat some of these issues; headlights and squatting.  I have a 4 horse CM with about a 6 foot LQ.  I hope they do the trick!

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
gonzo1066
Reg. Oct 2010
Posted 2012-03-01 8:20 PM (#141597 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Veteran


Posts: 264
1001002525
Location: Sumas Washington

I just pulled the helper airbags off of my 04 Dodge 3500 dually and installed a Kelderman 4 link air bag suspension.  THis kit does not ues any leaf springs on the rear at all.   It is a full air ride just like the big semis use.  I bought the kit with auto level valves so the truck rides the same level wether loaded or empty.  So far this kit has been very impressive to me.   Great ride empty or loaded, much easier on the GN trailer. 

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
whitewood
Reg. Jun 2009
Posted 2012-03-01 9:58 PM (#141600 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Veteran


Posts: 127
10025
Location: rapid city sd

Just checking to see if your trailer sits level. Lots of trailers show up with almost no load on the front axel. The problem we have with the pickups saging so bad comes from the mfgrs wanting the one ton to ride like a half ton. Making the springs longer helps the ride but lets them sag. A one ton probably needs to ride like a one ton to get the job done.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2012-03-01 10:33 PM (#141602 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Expert


Posts: 5870
50005001001001002525
Location: western PA

I'm glad that you have found a method in which your application of the Timbren spring works for you....but your installation would not be the customary/normal/usual installation.

So what? Can't anyone think outside the box? If the Timbrens work well but are installed with too little a clearance, why not increase the spacing? Do you always use everything you buy, exactly as it is without some imagineering?

If a one inch spacing initiates a rough empty ride, why not change the gap? A Timbren is basically a rubber tube that acts as a bump stop for the axle. If some extra material were removed from the top, you would have a larger spacing, resulting in a better empty ride and an unchanged total load improvement. On an already present installation, this would be a five minute modification. On a new installation, non specified cones/springs of the adjusted height can be substituted, as I and others have done.

What's so hard to imagine or facilitate?

customary/normal/usual................. for whom? The factory doesn't drive your truck or pull your trailer, you do. Take some initiative and do what's best for you.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
siseley
Reg. Jul 2006
Posted 2012-03-02 9:34 PM (#141626 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing



Extreme Veteran


Posts: 385
100100100252525
Location: high desert, CA.
GARD;I agree with you. On my 3500 Ram, srw,long bed, the addition of Timbren type load helpers made the world of difference. I tow a 4 horse steel trailer, and the truck would squat too much. The addition of the Timbrens was just enough to make the headlight problem, and the worry of too much squat go away. While I could also adjust the goose neck to move the trailer up, and therefore put less pin weight on the bed, I don't have to monkey with my settings.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
gabz
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2012-03-03 12:58 PM (#141631 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing



Expert


Posts: 1391
1000100100100252525
Location: North of Detroit, MI

I'm a little befuddled. You have a 1 ton dually and your trailer weighs 7000 pounds and it makes the truck squat 6 inches??

Holy cow. Something is WRONG.

 I have a 1/2 ton pickup (Ford - 2006), 4x4. My empty trailer is about 5500 pounds. If I load 2 horses on it (or the equivalent.. that is, 48 gallons of water in the tank at the REAR of the trailer, 3 bales of hay, 1- 1000 pound horse, 2 ice chests packed with stuff, etc. etc. taking it to 8000 - 8300 lbs), I don't get even 4 inches of squat.

Is the 7000 pounds your empty trailer weight, loaded weight or pin weight? Or did I read something wrong?  Where's your gooseneck ball located? Over rear axle, in front of, or behind?
Are you loading the bed of the pickup too when you are hooked to the trailer?

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
gabz
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2012-03-03 1:06 PM (#141632 - in reply to #141631)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing



Expert


Posts: 1391
1000100100100252525
Location: North of Detroit, MI

I wrote the above thinking you had a GN... are you hauling a BP? If so, you may only need weight distribution hitch.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
millbrow
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2012-03-03 1:33 PM (#141634 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Member


Posts: 20

Location: GA
It is a 31' long GN ~7000lbs with GVW ~18k
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
millbrow
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2012-03-03 1:39 PM (#141635 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Member


Posts: 20

Location: GA
I guess I should clarify what squat and dropping the rear means. To me, it means when i drop the trailer on the bed (the ball is placed in standard position on the rear axle of the truck where it belongs) the bed keeps dropping until the weight is fully on the truck, and the drop seems to be about 6 inches (just watching the wheel well and distance between the wheel and the well). Now I have been told that the tires are oversize, but when the trailer is hitched up, the plastic within the wheel well is actually touching the tires and we had to strip some of the plastic off so it would not rub the tires.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
gabz
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2012-03-03 1:59 PM (#141636 - in reply to #141635)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing



Expert


Posts: 1391
1000100100100252525
Location: North of Detroit, MI

Truck tires are over-sized?  Increasing the size of your tire / wheel will DECREASE the towing weight of your truck - but if these tires are what you want, then of course, you'll have to add suspension boosters to the truck.

Adjustable air bags are good.. .and Mr. Truck has done a great review of "AUTO FLEX" - air ride suspension on his website. You might take a peak at that. Has it's own air compressor, so you can set the pressure from inside the cab and adjust it as needed for your load. I recently traveled in a 1 ton dually from Mid-Wisconsin to Wichita, KS with this type of air bag arrangement that recently been installed. A 48' GN loaded with saddles, display hardware, etc. We had to decrease the air pressure because the trailer was traveling at a slant which put more weight on the rear axle of the trailer and created braking problems. 

31' long GN. It has living quarters? Sometimes the weight given for a trailer is all the parts used to manufacture it. If LQ were added AFTERWARDS, they may not be part of the weight given. This is why the empty weight is such a demon to nail down.  Also - more weight in the LQ, means more tongue/pin weight.  

Have you actually weighed the empty trailer? 

Use a yard stick to actually measure the drop you are getting. Adding weight behind the axles of the trailer, will decrease the amount of pin weight - it's kind of fun to mess around with testing (load a horse in VERY front stall, measure. then move the horse to the last stall and measure)

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
millbrow
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2012-03-03 3:34 PM (#141637 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Member


Posts: 20

Location: GA
tires came with the truck. It had 10k miles on it when we bought it and the previous owner put everything you can imagine on it and set it up to pull a trailer, but never actually did before he sold it.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
gabz
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2012-03-03 7:09 PM (#141642 - in reply to #141637)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing



Expert


Posts: 1391
1000100100100252525
Location: North of Detroit, MI

IF you want to get different tires, you can probably sell the oversize one's on CRAIGSLIST.  I would imagine there are lots of folks who would live to have them.    

Might be a less expensive alternative than adding or changing the suspension system? Unless of course, your headlights are pointed skyward when the trailer is loaded - in which case, you may wish to do both (different tires & changed suspension system). 

Good Luck. You're asking the questions and you have lots of input. Hope you can find a good solution and you don't have to trim the fenders on your truck any more than you have.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
gard
Reg. Aug 2007
Posted 2012-03-04 7:14 AM (#141650 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Expert


Posts: 5870
50005001001001002525
Location: western PA
Four tires cost ~$800- $1000+ and will not reduce the squatting from a suspension loading. Air bags, Timbrens etc. will alleviate the squat and cost less than a tire change.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
skippyvcu
Reg. May 2006
Posted 2012-03-04 9:02 AM (#141655 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Regular


Posts: 87
252525
Location: Williamsburg VA

The newer trucks squat more to get a "car type" ride.  The issue becomes more prevelant with a trailer that has had a living quarters or weekender package added as a significant portion of the additional weight is carried by the pin.

We put Timbrens on our truck after evaluating the cost, ride and maintenance issues.  The major factor for us was that we rarely have long empty trips in the truck.  Most of the use is pulling a goose neck trailer.  If we were using the truck for a daily driver, we would have put in an adjustable air bag setup.  How you intend to use the truck should be a major consideration in the option choice.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
millbrow
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2012-03-04 9:33 AM (#141657 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Member


Posts: 20

Location: GA
Does anyone have an opinion as to Helwig Helper springs vs Timbren blocks for this situation? The truck will be used mostly for pulling the 31' GN (11' LQ) and some around town use.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
paysonw
Reg. Aug 2010
Posted 2012-03-04 7:07 PM (#141668 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Regular


Posts: 61
2525
Location: Pueblo, CO

I am scheduled to get my Firestone Ride-rite air bags put on tomorrow.  I was washing off the truck to get the mud out of there and it occured to me that the B&W Hitch might be in the way of the air bags on the frame of the 2006 Ram 3500 Dually.  Has anyone run into that issue?  I hope it will not be a problem but thought I would ask.

Thanks in advance!

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
Zipitude
Reg. Jan 2006
Posted 2012-03-04 9:03 PM (#141671 - in reply to #141562)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Veteran


Posts: 155
1002525
Location: North Salem, IN
The Firestone Ride-Rite air bags will work with a B&W turnover ball. Had that exact setup on the ex-wifes 2006 Mega Cab.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
AJS
Reg. Feb 2012
Posted 2012-03-04 9:58 PM (#141674 - in reply to #141668)
Subject: RE: rear truck suspension when towing


Regular


Posts: 66
2525
Location: Western US
I had this problem with my 2000 Dodge, Les Schwab couldn't install the airbag system, but all I had to do was find someone that could fabricate the proper bracket, and all was well.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
Message format
 

'
Registered to: Horse Trailer World
(Delete all cookies set by this site)