Posted 2008-05-18 9:55 AM (#84152) Subject: Over the knee
New User
Posts: 1
Location: Wauchula, Fl
I wnet to look at a paint gelding that was a bit over in his left knee. Not too bad, not real pretty to look at. This is a really nice horse and handles like a dream. Easy Jet bloodlines. Nice big athletic horse. Will this cause him pain if worked. Will it affect his performance? I personally have never seen this. If anyone knows, please get back with me. Thanks
Posted 2008-05-18 8:18 PM (#84169 - in reply to #84152) Subject: RE: Over the knee
Veteran
Posts: 235 Location: Keymar,Maryland
It depends. Over at the knee is usually not a congenital defect, horses are rarely born with it. It is typically a secondary issue. The most common instigator is damage to the extensor tendons. The forces are opposite of calf knee ( or " back" at the knee).Elongation forces in front with soft tissue lesions and compressive forces behind the knee with bony lesions.Protocal is the same for either. Balanced trim and generous base of support along with a rocker and roll toe as the foot dictates or use of a properly placed Natural Balance shoe. Depending on the primary issue that caused it and what you desire the horse for determines how suitable it is for you. I would suggest a full exam by a vet including radiographs as well as advising the vet of your intended use. It may not be a deal breaker and no horse is perfect, you just need to be well informed. Rich
Posted 2008-05-19 12:58 PM (#84223 - in reply to #84152) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 225 Location: Urbana,MD
This is hereditary.I have a mare that is slightly over in her left knee.She is a dressage horse.It doesn't cause her any pain.You do need to make sure you get a farrier that can trim/shoe correctly.I once had a farrier that would leave too much heel and it would make the problem worse.A horse that is over the knee needs to have the heels let down and a longer toe.That way it will rock them back.,but this need to be done slowly so it doesn't cause too much pull on the tendons/ligamnts and such.
Posted 2008-05-19 12:58 PM (#84224 - in reply to #84152) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 225 Location: Urbana,MD
This is hereditary.I have a mare that is slightly over in her left knee.She is a dressage horse.It doesn't cause her any pain.You do need to make sure you get a farrier that can trim/shoe correctly.I once had a farrier that would leave too much heel and it would make the problem worse.A horse that is over the knee needs to have the heels let down and a longer toe.That way it will rock them back.,but this need to be done slowly so it doesn't cause too much pull on the tendons/ligamnts and such.
Posted 2008-05-19 8:16 PM (#84251 - in reply to #84224) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 235 Location: Keymar,Maryland
Originally written by horsecrazi on 2008-05-19 1:58 PM
This is hereditary.I have a mare that is slightly over in her left knee.She is a dressage horse.It doesn't cause her any pain.You do need to make sure you get a farrier that can trim/shoe correctly.I once had a farrier that would leave too much heel and it would make the problem worse.A horse that is over the knee needs to have the heels let down and a longer toe.That way it will rock them back.,but this need to be done slowly so it doesn't cause too much pull on the tendons/ligamnts and such.
Sorry, you are incorrect. Over at the knee is not hereditary and rarely a congenital defect. Leaving the toe long is entirely incorrect and will continue to lead to arthrosis of the joint as the forces required to get over that long toe are higher and last longer. The toe needs to be short with generous breakover.
Posted 2008-05-19 8:44 PM (#84257 - in reply to #84152) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 1989 Location: South Central OK
Why buy a horse with an obvious defect when the market is flooded with animals?
This can become a huge issue, it depends on how the horse got over in the knee to begin with. An old track injury is quite common and those can get quite ugly with hard riding and old age. Don't believe me? Visit an old hunter barn or TB breeding facility and walk in the broodmare pastures.
Posted 2008-05-19 11:00 PM (#84281 - in reply to #84152) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 3853 Location: Vermont
It can also be a damaged suspensory ligament...My wife had one with that problem an he was still capable of 3rd level dressage movements and jumping...
Posted 2008-05-20 5:44 PM (#84342 - in reply to #84152) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 225 Location: Urbana,MD
Rich ,Not sure what vet you use.My vet told me it is hereditary! I did breed this mare and her filly is very slightly over in the same knee.I took this filly to the AWS inspection and she scored a blue perferred.My mare does dressage and has remaned sound doing 3rd/4th level work.From experience I know my mare stands much better when she is kept with low heels.I once had a farrier who would allow her heels to grow too much and it was very much like a woman walking on high heels.It tips the weight foward.The toe does not need to be overly long.The farrier that was doing my horse also would trim off too much toe.Therefore her toes needed to be let out.My mare stands much better this way.
Posted 2008-05-20 6:48 PM (#84349 - in reply to #84342) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 235 Location: Keymar,Maryland
Originally written by horsecrazi on 2008-05-20 6:44 PM
Rich ,Not sure what vet you use.My vet told me it is hereditary! I did breed this mare and her filly is very slightly over in the same knee.I took this filly to the AWS inspection and she scored a blue perferred.My mare does dressage and has remaned sound doing 3rd/4th level work.From experience I know my mare stands much better when she is kept with low heels.I once had a farrier who would allow her heels to grow too much and it was very much like a woman walking on high heels.It tips the weight foward.The toe does not need to be overly long.The farrier that was doing my horse also would trim off too much toe.Therefore her toes needed to be let out.My mare stands much better this way.
Your vet needs some education. Pick up any equine anatomy manual. Adams,Rooney,etc.They all agree. Over at the knee is a secondary condition.
First thing you should do is throw out all those equine rags. There's more mis-information than anything else. I've seen articles that make me cringe.Rich
Posted 2008-05-20 8:31 PM (#84356 - in reply to #84152) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 235 Location: Keymar,Maryland
I could have guessed. I'd like to see Dr.Forfa and company debate with someone who dedicated their life to equine research and has personally necropsied THOUSANDS of horses.
Posted 2008-05-21 11:38 PM (#84428 - in reply to #84152) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 238 Location: West Coast
My vet said that over at the knees is caused by incorrect feeding as a baby, but that the predisposition to it is hereditary.
As someone else mentioned over at the knees is not as bad as calf kneed. I would not by a calf kneed horse, but I would not rule out a horse that is over at the knee, but I would get a vet's opinion on the horse. One thing you need to watch out for is a horse that is not over at the knee but is actually sore in his heels. When a horse is sore in his heel he will sometimes buckle his knee when standing, so it looks like they are over at the knee.
My 15 year old head horse is very over in both knees, when I bought him at age 6 the vet that did the PP exam was not at all concerned about his knees. I had them x-rayed at that time and they were perfect and still looked perfect two years ago when I x-rayed them again. Horses that are over at the knee don't usually have knee issues, but they can have suspensory issues. With that said my horse is a head horse and ropes a lot of steers and is still going strong
Posted 2011-12-02 8:32 AM (#139262 - in reply to #84356) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 1
Location: Hebron KY
Dave is correct on all counts. Not that he needs my support or affirmation as he clearly can hold his own in this forum/string. With respect to the shoeing issue, I have a 20-year old off the track QH who has contracted tendons and is very much over the knee. My quite talented farrier has very correctly kept his toe short, as to give him a longer toe would cause excessive strain on his tendons and ligaments. Over the years, I've had farriers that have said, "oh, he'll stand straighter if we give him a longer toe." Well, yes, a horse will stand straighter, but at what price--the horse's future career, health, comfort and soundness? Long toes will only create additional stress and strain on the horse's ligaments and tendons. It's a price I very quickly figured out was too high a price to pay for the "illusion" of straighter legs. My guy is still sound after 18 years, and had I listened to some uneducated farriers, I'm quite confident I would not be able to ride him today, nor possibly even have him still w/me. Kind regards,
Posted 2011-12-26 2:35 PM (#139676 - in reply to #84152) Subject: RE: Over the knee
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Posts: 316 Location: Illinois
I have a horse that is slightly over the knee. No problems, though I haven't done much with him, he did run a few races before I got him. No problems with his knees, just wasn't interested in racing. ;)I believe Keen was over the knee, slightly downhill, skinny Thoroughbred and still won an Olympic gold medal in Dressage in the early '70's. Horses are funny things that way. ;) Not that I would go out and look for a conformational nightmare, but it takes heart and a rider that believes, as much as and sometimes more then perfect conformation for a horse to excel in anything. Quick edit, you can always have the knees XRayed if you have any doubts to their soundness.
Over the knee
