Posted 2008-01-29 7:01 PM (#75558) Subject: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
New User
Posts: 3
Location: Austin TX
Could someone please eplain what the differnce is between line breeding and inbreeding? I'm looking at a 4 yo mare that is Sired by her Grandsire, i.e her daddy is her Grandaddy. She is a very nicely put togather horse, sound smart and well bred except for this issue. I've read all I could find on the internet about this and it seems that if the foal is physically sound and correct, then this is acceptable?? hmmm,,, why am I already seeing her barn name as Arkansas??
Posted 2008-01-29 8:29 PM (#75562 - in reply to #75558) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
Expert
Posts: 1723
Location: michigan
A linebred horse tends to have some of them same names popping up in the pedigree. Its like breeding horses that are cousins. Breeders are trying to reproduce the highly desrieable traits of certain horse families such as for show horses.
Inbreeding is the mating of extemely closely realted horses such as sire to daughter or siblings. Its not done as often since bad traits are passed along as well as the good. You have to know your bloodlines, the good ,badd and ugly before you'd attem mating extemely close relatives.
In your case, your filly is linebred but its a close call.
Posted 2008-01-29 9:19 PM (#75565 - in reply to #75558) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
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Posts: 1989
Location: South Central OK
The best moral description of this I've heard is: In humans it would be inbreeding, but breeders of animals call it line-breeding.
You will find in any relative mating that genetic mutations are more prevalent. Some are labeled good, this is called "fixing a gene." Others which we find bad are things like mental and physical malformations.
I have limited dealing with handling line-bred horses and they have not been good. I find that they tend to be very hard headed and difficult to train, not a willing partner but a rival in the barn. Again this is my own limited PERSONAL experiences and you may take them at the price you paid (nothing.)
The opposite view of this is called hybrid vigor, or the more different genes you mix the more genetically healthy the offspring will be thus reducing the chances of having a "bad gene" doubled and causing it to manifest.
I seriously doubt the person (and most people) that practice this form of breeding actually have enough scientific background to make this a feasible form of improving the breed.
In my world line-breeding = inbreeding.
Scary fact Impressive was "line-bred" to three bars, a 44% relation. Can anyone say HYPP? Enough said
Posted 2008-01-29 11:31 PM (#75574 - in reply to #75566) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
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Posts: 2615
HA HA! I've heard that often said by the old trainers/breeders and it's true!
I have a wonderful Missouri Foxtrotter gelding.His mother is also his half-sister.They share the same sire.One of the foundation Missouri Foxtrotter sires,Zane Grey,had as his mother,his sister and vice versa.
I'm sure it's not good breeding practice.My gelding has a big motor and tends to be nervous at times.I believe this to be in his breeding in general,however,and not the fact of his mother/half sister.
The man that I bought him from,a well-known and very good breeder in the MFT business,said,"It worked so well that time that I was afraid to try it again."
Posted 2008-01-30 8:34 AM (#75588 - in reply to #75558) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
Veteran
Posts: 294
Location: Fort Worth, Tx
linebreeding=HYPP
linebreeding=HERDA
and a bunch of others. Basically what they are doing is trying to concentrate the good features, but unwittingly getting the bad by getting two defective recessive traits together. I would steer clear of linebred horses myself. Is this a Quarter Horse?
Posted 2008-01-30 8:58 AM (#75592 - in reply to #75558) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
Expert
Posts: 1205
Location: Arkansas
Indeed, just because we all have the same DNA down here, doesn't mean we are not intelligent!!!! (makes crime hard to solve, tho!)
Just kidding!
What pedigree does your horse have, there are some very good pedigree people that frequent this forum, one gal in particular I know is outstanding (and resides in Arkansas!!)
Posted 2008-01-30 9:20 AM (#75593 - in reply to #75558) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
Expert
Posts: 1723
Location: michigan
Done with care, linebreeding( distantly related horses and usualy farther back in the pedigree) is not dangerous and many good ,solid horses come from the practice. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a linebred horse if it met the criteria I set for a horse.
Inbreeding ( very closely related horses such as sibling and sire/daughter combos) is a bit trickier. You have to know your bloodlines and individuals, you have to know what can and will crop up ( both good and bad).
Posted 2008-01-31 9:43 AM (#75703 - in reply to #75565) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
Member
Posts: 37
Location: alabama
Originally written by huntseat on 2008-01-29 9:19 PM
The best moral description of this I've heard is: In humans it would be inbreeding, but breeders of animals call it line-breeding.
You will find in any relative mating that genetic mutations are more prevalent. Some are labeled good, this is called "fixing a gene." Others which we find bad are things like mental and physical malformations.
I have limited dealing with handling line-bred horses and they have not been good. I find that they tend to be very hard headed and difficult to train, not a willing partner but a rival in the barn. Again this is my own limited PERSONAL experiences and you may take them at the price you paid (nothing.)
The opposite view of this is called hybrid vigor, or the more different genes you mix the more genetically healthy the offspring will be thus reducing the chances of having a "bad gene" doubled and causing it to manifest.
I seriously doubt the person (and most people) that practice this form of breeding actually have enough scientific background to make this a feasible form of improving the breed.
In my world line-breeding = inbreeding.
Scary fact Impressive was "line-bred" to three bars, a 44% relation. Can anyone say HYPP? Enough said
Posted 2008-01-31 5:21 PM (#75758 - in reply to #75729) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
Expert
Posts: 1989
Location: South Central OK
UC Davis has stated that the genetic flaw lies within Impressive not his ancestors. With Impressive it was only N/H but constant inbreeding/linebreeding brought about H/H which blew the top of the "jig" as it were.
Poco Bueno had a genetic flaw also called HC by UC Davis but everyone knows the flaw as HERDA. This causes the skin to become "unglued" and tear open, sadly this tends to show it's ugly head around the time youngsters are being saddle broke. How'd you like to unsaddle your horse and have huge chunks of hide tear off?
HERDA came around because if a little Poco Bueno blood made good horses what would lots of Poco Bueno blood do?
This line of thinking must be stopped for the safety of our breed associations!
Posted 2008-01-31 6:15 PM (#75762 - in reply to #75758) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
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Posts: 2615
In the foxtrotter breed you will often,and usually,see the same names on top/bottom of a horse's papers.Missouri Traveler E,Zane Grey,Southern Sunrise,ect ect will appear over and over.The association isn't all that old,and the breeders didn't have that many studs among the breed to choose from.Some of the show horse lines tend to be a little "hot" but if they don't have the fire and drive they won't make it in the show ring.This isn't considered the same as linebreeding or inbreeding.Mostly it is direct (siblings,ect) but,Zane Grey's mother Lady Anne was also his sister.
Posted 2008-02-01 5:10 AM (#75799 - in reply to #75558) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
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Posts: 1069
Location: MI.
My thought was that any mating between sibs, mother to son, father to daughter was considered inbreeding. Any breeding between grandsire to granddaughter, granddam to grandson "aunts & uncles etc." was linebreeding. To me it's all inbreeding.
Posted 2008-02-01 6:55 AM (#75802 - in reply to #75799) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
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Posts: 2615
It may be,but,that's the way it was done and there are some very fine offspring among our breed regardless.I'm not saying I'd do it,but,there are many more sires/mares available in our particular breed now than there were long ago before the books were opened. And as I have said,I have a gelding whose mother is his half sister,and he's fine.I'm sure lots of the QH folks and others look down on the MFT breed or will have very different opinions because of it,but,it's worked in this case and others fine.We weren't the breeders,incidently but it was a well known and respected breeder.
Posted 2008-02-03 6:58 PM (#75970 - in reply to #75558) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
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Posts: 24
Location: Idaho
I had a palamino filly whos sire on top side (who was a grandson of King) was the same sire her momma had. I got a good deal because it was an accident. As I talked around Ive heard that they can be great or not. One way or another. This filly had been handled only a couple of times when I got her as a yearling. The first time I worked her in the round pen she responded as if it had been her 10th time. I taught her to pick up her feet and the second time in the round pen I would touch her foot and she would pick it up and hold it up. She must of been a great one. I sold her to a guy that loved her and her breeding. I probably should have keep her but didn't need her. Just my experience any ways......
Posted 2008-02-03 9:34 PM (#75985 - in reply to #75970) Subject: RE: Linebreeding Vs Inbreeding
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Posts: 2615
We also once owned a MFT gelding that had Mo Traveler E as his grandsire,top and bottom.Traveler also appeared a couple of additional times on his papers,too,can't remember in what relation.We sold him for the same reason,we couldn't really afford all that we had,we pasture boarded,and had run out of grass that summer.Hated to let him go because he was an excellent horse.So,in this case too,it worked.