Posted 2005-11-14 4:23 PM (#33025) Subject: Mare won't stay in trailer
Veteran
Posts: 127
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
OK, I thought I had the problem fixed but apparently not. I have a mare who I have had for about a year that will load into a trailer (most of the time) but almost as soon as she gets in, she comes out. She used to come out at about Mach 3 (which is extremely dangerous) but she now backs out under control. She has has trailer issues ever since I got her but I have been without a trailer for the past 3 months so I couldn't work on the problem. I worked with her on Friday for over an hour just getting her comfortable walking in the trailer and getting some food. The longer I worked, the longer she was staying in the trailer. However, the minute she hears the butt bar rattling, out she comes. From her expression, she is truly nervous when she comes out......almost like she gets in there and realizes she's trapped and wants no part of it. If you try to force her in or trap her in, it's like starting over again next time you try to load. Here is what I'm working on.....just wanted to see if there were any other suggestions or ideas.
I want her to realize the trailer is a "good" place and she gets to rest and eat when she's in there. Last night I would work her in the round pen for about 10 minutes and then walk straight to the trailer. If she went in, I left her alone and let her eat hay. The minute she came out, we went straight back to the round pen for more work. We did this for about 45 minutes. Unfortunately, the round pen is not situated so I can back my trailer up to the gate. I am planning on continuing this until she is comfortable enough to stand in there for 5 or 10 minutes at a time and then I will put the butt bar up and give her some feed as a reward for staying in there.
Any other ideas?? Before you answer, here are some of the other things I have tried.
*Lunging outside the trailer and asking her to go in the trailer. Once again, she usually goes in, but doesn't stay in.
* Tapping her on the hip as a move forward cue. She will go in, but once she decides to get out, you can tap until you're blue bacause she's coming out.
* Popping her on the butt when she starts to back up. Once again, she is coming out or she will panic and go forward into the trailer and almost go wild in there if she thinks she can't get out.
* Putting a rope around her butt. This worked OK, but she still still got paniced in the trailer.
* Working on leading to where the word "whoa" means whoa. She does great.....until she gets in the trailer and then "whoa" means get out of my way or I'm going to mow you over.
I board so leaving my trailer in the pasture and putting feed in it isn't an option. I also work during the day and they feed at 4:30 in the evening so I can't get to the stables and make her eat her dinner in the trailer. I am thinking about letting them give her about 1/2 of her feed on some of the evenings that I can go out and putting the other 1/2 of her feed in the trailer when I get there. I need to get this mare to the point I can SAFELY load her and keep her in the trailer by myself.
What is really sad is that this mare has EXCELLENT ground manners. She is sweet as can be, very respectful, very sensitive, but just terrified of staying in a trailer. I want to teach her correctly so we can solve the problem because obviously someone prior to myself used methods that had made her scared to death of them.
Posted 2005-11-15 10:37 AM (#33047 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824
Location: Kansas
Just a thought-before she can back out on her own, give her the cue to back out. Do LOTS of in and out but with you cueing her instead of letting it be her idea. Then start extending time between cues. As with anything, it will require LOTS of time and LOTS of patience but it may help her replace her behavior with obedience. Good luck.
Posted 2005-11-15 1:30 PM (#33064 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Member
Posts: 28
Location: Montana
Here is some info that was given to me when I had the same problem. Now my horse goes in like a dream and stays there. It is all about confidence. Since I no longer put the butt bar up before my horse is confident and willing to stay in the trailer when I walk my horse up to the trailer, she goes right in. Even if she goes right in, I still bang the butt bar etc. as a safety check on her state of mind.
One thought however... don't try to close panels until your horse is confident to stay in by itself (without being held in there or stopped from coming out) for at least the count of 60.
Sometimes moving things can stir up any unconfidence that is still present in the horse so make sure you are not trying to sneak closing the panel.
When the horse is in there, play with the panels. If she jumps out, load her striaght back in and keep playing with the panels. This may happen 10 or 20 times, so don't get impatient and don't worry. Pretty soon the horse gets desensitized to it all and will cease to worry.
One thought for you, it's not about the trailer. Get less interested in loading your horse and think about the trailer as an obstacle or toy. Can you get one foot in, another one, can he cross the ramp, stand on the ramp, etc. etc. Sometimes horses know they've got you when they see what you want and do the opposite, and it upsets you! They know they are then in control because you're no longer acting like a leader.
Posted 2005-11-15 4:00 PM (#33076 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Veteran
Posts: 127
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Thanks for the ideas. I have been rattling the butt bar and the door hinges when she's in there and she's getting better about not wanting to immediately leave when she hears them. I have also done a lot of ground work trying to build her confidence in closed-in spaces. We have been backing between objects, walking through tight spaces, etc. and she is becoming more confident. I have also been asking her to back out of the trailer before she is ready (she still has some food in the bag) to teach her that I am the one who needs to decide when to back out. However, sometimes she starts backing out after being in the trailer only 5 seconds. I also don't want her to learn that as soon as you get in there, you are supposed to leave. Once she starts staying in for longer periods of time, I will reinforce the fact that I decide when she needs to exit but I need to get her to consistently stay in the trailer for a little longer period of time before I can continue with that. The last session we had, I was also reinforcing the "whoa" command and she started stopping once she had her back feet out of the trailer but her fronts still in it. She was perfectly fine stopping at that point, but not until the back feet were out. I am taking that as progress - at least she doesn't feel like she needs to completely get out of there to feel comfort. Hopefully with some more work, she will "whoa" before she gets any feet out of the trailer.
I welcome any additional ideas. Unfortunately, I think this is going to take longer than I want and will take a lot of patience on both of our parts. It really makes me wonder what horrible things were done to get her that scared of loading.
Posted 2005-11-15 11:44 PM (#33092 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Regular
Posts: 96
Location: MasonDixon
Is the inside of your trailer dark? Even with window's? Try hanging several battery operated closet light's in your trailer. Turn them on and see if she'll stay in the trailer.
Posted 2005-11-16 10:05 AM (#33110 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
New User
Posts: 4
Location: Lancaster, CA
The lungeing technique actually is key...if done properly. I teach wild mustangs and problem loaders. I would start all over one afternoon. Walk up to the trailer with door open, but ignore it and lunge. This time however, lunge about 2 circles in one direction, then have her quickly turn and lunge 2 circles in the opposite direction, turn,2circles, turn, 2 circles, turn 1 circle, etc. If she understands the turn and departure, then really change it up. If you ask her to turn and she immediately anticipates moving off, then turn her back and continue the original direction. This concept works because you are making her really think and listen and tune in to you. The slowing and turning is more physically taxing than just lunging in circles, so she tires more easily.
When it looks like she is really paying attention, ask her to stop in front of the open door of the trailer. If she moves off, continue the circles and turns. She will come to realize she gets rest if she stays by the open door. Then ask her to put her head in the trailer. Allow her to stand there as long as she wants, but if she moves away, its back to circles and turns. Progress to stepping inside. If she backs out, just return to circles and turns. It actually will take a surprisingly short amount of time for her to WANT to be in the trailer. I allow my new horses to stand in the trailer for several minutes. That shows me they are comfortable and want to be there. Then I back them out, do a couple of circles and turns, and have them re-enter. Once they are to the point I have to back them out, I know they are more ready to be closed in. The backing out and extra circles and turns reinforces the idea that the trailer is good. Upon re-entry, I proceed to close the bar. And make sure you do this quickly. If you move very slowly, they will sense you are sneaking around and get nervous. Do it as though she had no problems. Leave it for just a minute or two. Another tip, if she DOES react at this point...try fastening and unfastening the butt bar on the other side BEFORE trying hers. And remember, anytime she gets out, back to circles and turns. Good luck!
Posted 2005-11-16 4:53 PM (#33138 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Veteran
Posts: 127
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Thanks again for all the responses. To answer some of the questions....
Rose - My mare is turned out every day. I have tried loading her in the morning, afternoon, and evening after 45 minutes of work in the arena......same results. She also has TONS of energy so it takes a lot of work to get her tired.
Lobo - The trailer is not particularly dark inside and I have tried 6 different trailers including 3 different 2H straight loads - one of them with a ramp, 1 - 3H stock trailer, and 2 different 2H slant loads. Same results with all trailers. When we first got her, we loaded her into the 3H stock trailer and someone thougth the "slam the door shut while she's in there" method would work. Well, she hit the back door so hard it bent it. Not just a small dent, it bent the whole door. She is now so much more in control backing out that I'm pretty confident that wouldn't happen again. I have also tried loading her at night and during the day and the results are pretty much the same.
cmemory - I have tried the lunging thing and the loading isn't where we have the problem, but rather staying in the trailer. I am continuing using the similar philosophy that she needs to understand that being in the trailer means rest and no work, but the minute she backs out, we go to work again. It has been partially effective, but not as effective as it usually is with horses who don't want to load. I mean, she loads like a champ.....just casually walks in there but there is no staying in there for more than 30 seconds at the most. However, we are up from the 5 seconds we started out at.
Thanks again for all the support. I'll keep you updated on her progress. I'm headed out there right now for some more work.
I am absolutely baffled by this and I have never had a horse with this problem. I do appreciate all the suggestions an
Posted 2005-11-16 9:52 PM (#33156 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Location: KY
Tons of energy? Maybe worth while to take a look at what she's eating. We have gotten ours off of feed with molasses (we have good pasture and good hay) and are feeding oats. Getting the darlins off the sugar has made a world of difference in their dispositions. Just a thought.
Posted 2005-11-17 8:28 AM (#33167 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Veteran
Posts: 127
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
She's getting about 2# of Nutrena Safe Choice in the AM, free choice coastal during the day, and 2# Safe Choice at night plus 1 additional flake of coastal.
She's 1/2 Tennessee Walker so I think she gets a lot of her energy there.
*** UPDATE - I went out last night to work with her and I put some alfalfa cubes, Black Oil Sunflower Seeds, and about 1 handful of her feed in with the hay in the trailer. I kind of hid it in the hay so she would keep occupied looking for it. She walked right in the trailer when I asked and she stayed in there for over 2 minutes. I asked her to back out and she was all ready to go right back in there. I made her stand quietly outside the trailer for about 30 seconds and then asked her to go back in. She walked right back in and stayed in there for another minute or so before I asked her to back out again. While she was in there, I was rattling the butt bar, bangin on the sides of the trailer, etc.. - never phased her. We then worked in the round pen for about 20 minutes (it was too cold to ride) and then I let her go back in the trailer for another 2 or 3 minutes and eat / rest. Once again, I asked her to come out before she was ready to and I decided to call it a night. I wanted to leave her with the impression that she wanted to get back in the trailer. Anyway, if she does the same thing on Saturday, I will start putting up the butt bar and working with her to move over so I can get the divider fastened. I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel !!!!!
Posted 2005-11-17 9:44 AM (#33172 - in reply to #33138) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Do you tie your horse in the trailer? Is she breaking all the trailer ties? If youa ren't tying her because you know she will bolt anyway, then maybe that is where you should start. If you have access to an indoor or a wall tie her to a pole run the tie high and then run it through a lower hole and then hook it to her halter OR go and buy the Cachel (?) "follow me lead" and tie her with that. This way she can't pull back and WIN. Once you have that mastered where she knows that she can't pull back and get away then she will know she has now lost that battle. Do all of the trailers that you have tried have mangers? or just flat walls for her to look at? Try a trailer with an open front with some room so she won't be clostrophobic. if she can get her head down in front of her and you still have a hay bag hanging for her, she might be happy or more accepting with that. Once you get her in just hold her there. If she tries to back out with you holding her have someone on the butt just tap her lightly to get her to move forward just like you did in the pole barn. That should be her cue to move up and stand. If she doesn't, then go back to the pole barn and start over because she hasn't gotten it in her head the whole concept of "giving to the lead". I hope this helps.
Posted 2005-11-18 8:11 AM (#33206 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Member
Posts: 15
Location: Union Grove, WI
I hope this helps you. First off have you tried any trailers with an open front so the horses head isn't forced up against a wall? Do you have her tied once she is in? If you don't tie her because you think she will bolt back and fight the tie then try this: Tie her in a pole barn with two hooks the first one is high and then the second one is lower. You should run it through the top one and down to the lower one and then hook it to her. if she tries to fight it, tap her on the butt until she moves forward and then pat her. Tap her harder if needed. she will learn that when she fights, she gets reprimanded and when she comes forward and relaxes, she gets praised. she will lose without hurting herself or you. If you don't want to do this then get a Cachel catalog and purchase a "follow me lead". Once she learns that she can't win that battle then get her into the trailer but hold her with someone else at the butt end so if she tries to fight it that she will get tapped on the butt to go forward or to stay where she is. Don't feed her anything until she stands there for a minute or two and then give her a bag of hay to stay there. If youa re doing this and you are apprehensive, she will feel that and not want to do it. Take a deep breath and calm down. I have been there too, not as bad as your situation. Your horse needs to learn to "give to the lead" that is number one priority so she will learn that once she feels pressure on the lead that she can not go any where. Conquer that and I think you may be able to start working on the trailer problem. It is going into winter now so work on it before next season, but see if you can find a trailer that is open in front of the horse. Most of the time if they can get there heads down in front of them, that really calms them down because they can clear their sinus' and they don't feel so restricted. A stock trailer for her won't teach her anything about standing in a straight load, a trailer with a manger will restrict her from moving her head down and a slant load will put her face right up to a wall. Good Luck
Posted 2005-11-18 1:24 PM (#33216 - in reply to #33167) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Member
Posts: 28
Location: Montana
It sounds like you are doing a great job. It truly is all about confidence. I know alot of people hate Parelli but I had the fortunate experienct to have Linda Parelli work with me and my horse this summer. I had spent 5 hours trying to get her in the trailer when Linda came over and volunteered to help. Linda had my horse in the trailer in two minutes but wouldn't let me leave until I could bang the butt bar, jump on the ramp and create all kinds of comotion behind her with her not wanting to come back out. I have not had a trailer loading problem since, and even though she walks right in and stays there, I still bang the butt bar, and walk around on the ramp behind her before I put it up. Good job! Linda told me one day I would love trailer loading and honestly, I've done what she did with my horse with 3 other horses and it worked. I do love trailer loading now. Keep it up.
Posted 2005-11-18 4:24 PM (#33229 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Veteran
Posts: 127
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Thanks, Montana. This is the first horse I have ever had with "confidence" issues and you really have to get creative with training or you end up a ground zero again whenever something else doesn't work. She can be very emotional and exciteable and luckily I am a very laid back, even tempered person so we compliment each other well. She will go into the trailer because she respects me and I am asking her to go in but it is flat out panic once she gets in there. That has improved significantly through patience but she is still not completely comfortable in there.
About 2 months ago, I loaded her into a friend's trailer and she loaded OK, we got the butt bar up before she decided to exit, and we traveled about 10 miles for an afternoon trail ride. The ride was very enjoyable and we started to load to come home. However, she decided she didn't want to load to come home. One of the people with me had the idea of waving their hat behind her to try to "force" her into the trailer. Well, that backfired and then she wouldn't even put one foot in the trailer. She kept looking behind her to see where he was. After about 45 minutes, we finally got her into a 2H stock trailer using the rope around the butt. They had to close the door as soon as she went in and I was still in the trailer. After she attempted to rear 2 times, I finally got her calmer - enough so to secure the divider. Her entire body was quivering. I have a feeling this is how she has been "trained" in the past to trailer load and it absolutely puts her in survival mode. However, because she has respect for me, I was able to keep her from completely flipping out. Once we got back to the stables, I went in the trailer and petted her and stayed in there for about 5 minutes until she was calm before I would let her out of the trailer. By that point, she was fine and we calmly walked out.
By the way, my current trailer doesn't have mangers so she can lower her head.
Posted 2005-11-19 2:35 PM (#33259 - in reply to #33138) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
King of the Hill
Posts: 6
Location: Florida
Originally written by Champhorse on 2005-11-16 5:53 PM
cmemory - I have tried the lunging thing and the loading isn't where we have the problem, but rather staying in the trailer. I am continuing using the similar philosophy that she needs to understand that being in the trailer means rest and no work, but the minute she backs out, we go to work again. It has been partially effective, but not as effective as it usually is with horses who don't want to load. I mean, she loads like a champ.....just casually walks in there but there is no staying in there for more than 30 seconds at the most. However, we are up from the 5 seconds we started out at.
I think that's what Cmemory was meaning, that as soon as the horse comes back out, the work begins. If you're consistent and persistent, the trailer will become the horse's sanctuary.
If you have a slant load, and if the trailer is wide enough, maybe load her in and turn so she faces the rear. A lot will prefer this direction.
Posted 2005-12-04 10:18 AM (#33731 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 322
Location: Fort Madison, Iowa
Sounds like you're doing everything right. I have a horse with the same issues and I've a trainer I work with too. What seems to work the best for my horse is I've removed the dividers and drive him in. He knows to go in turn, around, back towards the wall and then I tie him. This horse has big issues with loading and got hurt loading with his first trainer. He has a panic button and he'll pull back and come up. He has been trained to give to pressure and roundpen work. Working with the second trainer we've spent hours building the confidence back with this horse and it takes patience and energy. Things are good but I can expect every year this horse will retry me and not want to go in then it's work in the roundpen and work, work, work outside the trailer. When it's re-established he won't get away with it, then he's fine again. My trainer said he's the type of horse that has a big motor (so I don't grain unless heavy work) and very intelligent so he'll try me every now and then to see what he can get away with. I've put in the time and energy into this horse because he has the most interesting personallity and the best trailriding horse I've ever had. With work, time, and patience, it'll payoff. You're on the right track!...
Posted 2005-12-04 11:01 PM (#33746 - in reply to #33216) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385
Location: washington
I'd love to know what method Linda Parelli used... sounds great if it worked in 2 minutes and is still working. My horse tends to load right up now, but does have relapses where he refuses. I sold the 2 horse straight load and bought a 3-horse slant load. It is much safer for me and for him in the end. My friend has a horse that won't stay in any trailer though... we load him in my slant load with all dividers out, turn him around and walk him out, and repeat this for several minutes. We ask him to stay in a little longer each time. Turning him to face the exit door is key, because if he starts to back out, there is no stopping him. (He was hurt badly in a straight load, ending up with feet in the manger and out a front window) Eventually we get him in and standing long enough to get the door shut. He rides in the trailer like a dream and unloads like a gemtleman. Just does not like the idea at the start of the trip. I'd love to know how to help my friend load her horse a little easier. She has no trailer so she can't practice with him. The last time we took a trip I drove up to her place every day for a week so we could rely on being able to load him the day we planned to leave! He has to go in last, closest to the door, while the other 2 loaded horses wait and wait. Stressful to say the least!
Posted 2005-12-05 5:02 PM (#33757 - in reply to #33025) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Veteran
Posts: 127
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Thought I would give you all an update....
My mare is now loading and staying much better. I have done several of the things mentioned and it is all eventually paying off. I have been working her in the round pen - trotting and cantering - until I know she's a little tired, We then go straight to the trailer (it's about 20 feet from the round pen) and she gets to rest if she puts any part of her body in the trailer. However. she has learned that all she has to do is put 2 feet in and then she'll stand there for 5 minutes. Whenever she backs out, off we go for some more work. She is beginning to associate the trailer with something good.....food and rest.....which is helping her get over the anxiety of being in there. She is also gaining confidence by going in there and is less hesitant to get out. I have also been doing a lot of ground work asking her to back between trees, back into an open shed with all sorts of tractors, boards, etc. in there, and working a lot on "whoa" when she's backing. I have her to the point where she will stop with her leg still in the air when I say "whoa". She will now walk all the way into the trailer when I ask and if she starts to back out, I tell her "whoa" and she will stop once her back feet are out of the trailer. I even got her to the point I can load her, put the butt bar up, and let her turn around in there to see that everything is OK. Once she was turned around, she let me close the divider and it never bothered her.
On Saturday, I rode her in a Christmas Parade so I had to load her both going and coming. I loaded her on Saturday and she went right in there and I put the butt bar up. She never once tried to back out. I clipped a trailer tie on her (with quick release snap). When I ask her to move over to shut the divider, she moved right over and was great. It was WAY too easy. On the way home, she was a little more hesitant to load with all the comotion going on in the parking lot, but she eventually walked in, we put the butt bar up, I clipped the trailer tie on her, and she started to back up but immediately stopped when she felt the pressure on her halter. Two months ago, she was backing up so quickly that a trailer tie wouldn't hold her - it would have released almost immediately. Anyway, when we got home, I unloaded my other horse, unclipped the trailer tie, and opened the divider. She stood there and didn't move. I asked her to back up a few steps and decided to try "whoa" before she got out of the trailer. She stopped immediately and just looked at me. I think she might FINALLY be getting it !!! It has been a long road but I think I actually see the light. PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE.
Posted 2006-03-19 12:02 AM (#39045 - in reply to #33757) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Member
Posts: 11
Location: huntsburg,ohio
OH MY G. I THOUGHT YOUR LETTER WAS ABOUT MY MARE SADIE.WE HAD DONE ALL OF THE ABOVE, BROKE 8 LEAD LINES ONE MORNING, I KNOW ALOT ABOUT HER AND FOOD IS HER JOY, JOHN LYONS DOESN'T BELEIVE IN IT , BUT ONE DAY I JUST GOT HER TIED ,WITH BUNGE AND SHE BACKED OFF! I TOOK THE BUNGE TO BIG D TO SHOW THEM HOW FAR THEY CAN STRETCH!!!![16FT] ANYWAY I PUT A PORTABLE FENCE WITH PUSH IN STAKES AROUND MY TRAILER AND SHE DIDN'T EAT ANYWHERE BUT THERE FOR A MONTH, I WOULD WATCH HER AND SOME DAYS SHE'D BE IN AND OUT 100 TIMES , IT GOT TO BE FUNNY, THEN I WOULD JOIN HER , BRUSH HER TALK, THEN DID BUTT BAR, THEN DOWN WITH IT AND SHE REALLY LOST ALL FEAR, MY VET SAID ALSO SOMEONE COULD OF DRIVEN CRAZY AND SCARED HER , SO I WAS EXTRA CAREFUL ON THE MOVE, ON TURNS AND STOPPING, THEY SAID I MIGHT NEED TO RETRAIN THIS SPRING, BUT WE RODE LAST SUNDAY AND SHE LOADED NO TROBLEM!! IT IS A BIG ISSUE GOOD LUCK I FEEL YOUR PAIN! FOOD I TELL YA FOOD IT WORKS, RIGHT OR WRONG IT WORKS!
Posted 2006-03-19 8:56 AM (#39052 - in reply to #33138) Subject: RE: Mare won't stay in trailer
Expert
Posts: 1719
Location: PA
I think your horse has not been properly taught HOW to exit the trailer (which you already know!) so that's what I would concentrate on. Once she learns how to back out one step at a time, loading will never be a issue either. I had a huge hunt seat horse once that loaded fine but hit his head coming out one time. Being part TB, he had that stupid side to him, and from then on he would try to fly out the back as quickly as he could making the chances of hittting himself greater. What we did was teach him to walk out one step at a time using a war bridle, which he was already familiar with. We have a trailer that we can get into with him and we loaded walked him in wearing the war bridle and made him stand while we petted him. Once he stood quietly, we said "back" and pushed him back one step. If he tokk anything more than one, we pulled him forward again. If they truly understand a war bridle, they will obey it! Then we repeated the process untill he would take one step and stop and wait for the next back command. It took a few lessons (TB type!!) but he ended up being a great hauler.