'
1
Forums Albums Skins 1
Search Register Logon


You are logged in as a guest. Logon or register an account to access more features.
OTHER FORUMS:    Barrel Horses  -   Trucks   -   Cutting  -   Reining  -   Roping 
'
A few questions on tow vehicles:

Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Last activity 2005-08-22 6:07 AM
23 replies, 5720 views

View previous thread :: View next thread
   General Discussion -> Trailer Talk  Click to return to Barrel Talk
Refresh
Message format
 
Darre
Reg. Apr 2004
Posted 2005-08-16 9:51 PM (#29281)
Subject: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Member


Posts: 8

Location: Texas
I am currently in the market for a newer diesel truck. It is a coin toss between Dodge and Ford although I have been able to find better deals on the Dodges around here thus far. I have always been a fan of duallys and always wanted to own one but I do know I can get away with towing with a 3/4 just fine. Is the dually more upkeep or anything? What are your opinions Dually vs. 3/4 ton? Also I have heard mixed things about Auto or Manual Tranny's and was curious. Especially if I get a dually wouldn't the manual be better as far as stopping and slowing down? But is the shifting not good on the horses? Any opinions on the Auto or Manual Tranny's as well?
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
Painted Horse
Reg. May 2005
Posted 2005-08-16 10:35 PM (#29284 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:



Expert


Posts: 2453
20001001001001002525
Location: Northern Utah
Dually vs SRW. Duallies typically use more fuel. It takes more energy to roll 6 tires vs 4. And duallies usually have lower gear ratios, 4:10 vs 3:73 A flat on the inside tire takes more effort to remove and replace. You have two extra tires to replace every time you wear out your tires.
None of these really make that much difference. Dual do carry more weight. give you better braking under load ( more tire surface) more stable in cross winds and windy roads ( again more tire contact with the road)

It's harder to park if you go to the mall or if your garage is doesn't have a 10'-12' door.

If your load is near max for a single axle. get the dually. Other wise it's just your preferance.

I'm a big fan of the newer auto trannies. My 2003 F350 has the new 6.0L Powerstroke with the Torque Shift tranny. I drive in the mountains of Utah, Wyo, Colorado. I frequently have to come down long steep grades. In my 2000 F350 I was replacing my brake pads every 30,000 miles, With my 2003 truck I have not replaced the brakes yet at 65,000 miles. I can crest a summit and press the brakes and the trany will downshift to the desired gear/speed and I set the cruise. My powertrain will hold that speed all the way down with out me every touching the brakes again.

My truck & trailer weigh in 17,000 to 18,000 lbs depending on which horse, water/hay etc.

The Allison trany in the GM trucks is supposed to do the same thing.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-17 8:10 AM (#29289 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1719
1000500100100
Location: PA
Darre, What are you going to tow with your truck?  That should determine what truck you drive.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
ND COWBOY
Reg. Jan 2005
Posted 2005-08-17 8:20 AM (#29291 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Veteran


Posts: 104
100
I have heard the Dodge gets quite a bit better fuel milage, when towing.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
MIfarmbabe
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-17 9:02 AM (#29293 - in reply to #29291)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 565
5002525
Location: Michigan

Originally written by ND COWBOY on 2005-08-17 9:20 AM

I have heard the Dodge gets quite a bit better fuel milage, when towing.

 

Compared to what? The whole "better fuel mileage" thing highly depends on what type of trailer you are hauling, weight of the trailer, terrain conditions, tires, rear axle configuration, yada yada yada.

To say one brand of truck gets better mileage over another is really someone's guess and love for one brand over another.

I don't have a love of one truck, as long as the SOB does the job for me, I am happy.

My current truck is an '04 Chevy Duramax. It hauls my trailer with little effort and the Allison tranny gives this girl a testosterone rush!

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
2kkorral
Reg. Aug 2005
Posted 2005-08-17 12:58 PM (#29303 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Member


Posts: 10

Location: Mpls. MN

Here's some actual experience.  We tow a Exiss alum. 34ft (incl nose) fully loaded.  Originally pulled it with a Dodge Cummins 5 speed 4x4 ext cab from the Midwest to the southwest over flat pull and mountains.  We had such a problems with the slightest grade change on the climb and then questioned if the brakes would hold out.  We added a Banks kit adding more torque and HP,  minimal change for the positive, we experienced rpm issues and constant down shifting.  Decided to can the Dodge!

Since have pulled the same trailer with a Ford Super duty crew cab, 6.0 automatic with absolutely NO SWEAT and mpg in the 13-16 range full load.  We also love the full glass viewing on the doors, it's SOOOO much quieter and I originally against the Automatic am amazed at what a comfortable trip without labor now.   I have nothing to do with Ford or Dodge, just a real life experience.

Best of Luck!

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
farmbabe
Reg. Nov 2003
Posted 2005-08-17 1:43 PM (#29308 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1723
1000500100100
Location: michigan

I have 3H Exiss that I pull with a Ford PSD F250. I don't over mountains, occasionally some hills but nothing big ,so I would expect just about any 3/4 truck to handle it. I don't haul a huge trailer so I don't need duallies. The Ford has been dependable and like I said, handles the job. My needs might be different than yours. I'd consider a manual transmission should I be going up and down big hills and mountain areas. I'd consider duals if I had a longer trailer. Thats what you need to figure out- what are you hauling and where you're hauling. Make of truck isn't as important as your hauling needs. Mileage can be a tricky thing since there are variables- compair apples to apples. Is shifting bad for the horses? Probably not unless you're a super lousy manual driver- otherwise I wouldn't be so concerned about that.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
NickWilson1021
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2005-08-17 9:21 PM (#29326 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Member


Posts: 11

Location: Birmingham, AL

We have a 2002 Dodge 3500 6pd and we had a 2004 F-350 auto. The Ford pulled great when it wasnt in the shop getting about 8 mpg pulling elite 3 horse with 8ft. lq. Dodge gets about 14 to 16 and the manual tranny has saved our butt many of times. Ended up trading in the ford for a dodge 2005 dodge in feb. Dodge with manual is your best bet. Just my opinion. Good Luck!!

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-18 9:32 PM (#29367 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 2689
2000500100252525
"Fuel efficiency" (joke) isn't much different between the big 3.
For a given weight, speed, air resistance, technology, etc. there isn't much to chose between them, probably far less than the anecdotal evidence would suggest. I don't really believe that axle ratio makes a HUGE difference if you're not trying to do 80+ with 4.11 and O/D locked out.
5.9, 6.0, 6.6 - 6 cylinder or 8, take your pick, they're essentially the same technology and "efficiency", the weight probably isn't much different when "comparably equipped".

It might as well come down to red vs green vs blue vs white...
I think it often does, unless you think the emblem makes a difference (-:
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-19 7:15 AM (#29375 - in reply to #29367)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1719
1000500100100
Location: PA
Reg, I do think axle ratio can make a difference.  My 350 had the 4:10 rear and my 450 has the 4:30 rear.  Starting up a hill from a dead stop, my 350 struggled unless I kept it in the lowest gear.  With the same trailer, my 450 takes the hill without me having to watch the rpms.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-08-19 7:44 AM (#29379 - in reply to #29375)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1416
1000100100100100
Location: sc

Originally written by hav2ride on 2005-08-19 8:15 AM

  My 350 had the 4:10 rear and my 450 has the 4:30 rear. 

well that would explain some of your "perceived" better braking ability.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
ND COWBOY
Reg. Jan 2005
Posted 2005-08-19 8:09 AM (#29381 - in reply to #29367)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Veteran


Posts: 104
100
From what I am hearing the 6-cyl in the Dodge is what makes the fuel economy so much better.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-19 1:14 PM (#29398 - in reply to #29379)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1719
1000500100100
Location: PA

"well that would explain some of your "perceived" better braking ability."

How would pulling UP a hill account for better braking??  BTW, "perceived" is your opinion.  Unless you have pulled my rig with both of the trucks, you really couldn't know could you?



Edited by hav2ride 2005-08-19 1:15 PM
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
MrTruck
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-19 1:49 PM (#29402 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:



Elite Veteran


Posts: 1160
10001002525
Location: Denver Colorado
The old 12 valve Cummins in Dodge 89-98.5 was the king of diesel economy. The 24 valve starting in 98.5 ended that reign. The GM Duramax became the next king with the early LLY engine. But when it changed in 2004.5, fuel mileage went down on it too. Basicly a loaded diesel running full throttle puts all three very close on mpg. It seems to me that Ford has the widest range of mpg even in the same year. In 2007 we should see the first Toyota and Nissan diesels in 3/4 ton's. We'll see if they can do better on fuel mileage.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-08-19 4:13 PM (#29406 - in reply to #29398)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1416
1000100100100100
Location: sc
Originally written by hav2ride on 2005-08-19 1:14 PM

"well that would explain some of your "perceived" better braking ability."

How would pulling UP a hill account for better braking??  BTW, "perceived" is your opinion.  Unless you have pulled my rig with both of the trucks, you really couldn't know could you?

lower gear ratio means that in addition to more pulling power you also have more engine braking, just like downshifting for a downhill descent. and i doubt you have the only f450/f550 in the world. so i guess i do know.

Edited by chadsalt 2005-08-19 4:14 PM
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-19 8:13 PM (#29414 - in reply to #29406)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1719
1000500100100
Location: PA
I wasn't referring to engine braking power, my 450 has more wheel braking power than my 350 did.  And, no, I'm pretty sure there are a few others out there that also tow with a 450.  I'm also sure that you have never driven my rig.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-19 10:03 PM (#29418 - in reply to #29375)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 2689
2000500100252525
Originally written by hav2ride on 2005-08-19 7:15 AM

Reg, I do think axle ratio can make a difference. My 350 had the 4:10 rear and my 450 has the 4:30 rear. Starting up a hill from a dead stop, my 350 struggled unless I kept it in the lowest gear. With the same trailer, my 450 takes the hill without me having to watch the rpms.


Point taken, but (I think) they're significantly different trucks.
It probably isn't JUST the 4.30 vs 4.10, I'd guess there to be a lower low in the 450. My guess being based on the fact that bigger trucks are kinda like that (-: The same trailer "matters less" to a bigger truck.
You're also carrying more truck weight around now, can be good, can be bad, as long as its a conscious choice its OK.

Again, I think that at 60, 65 for a given total rig weight and air resistance they're all about as fuel (in)efficient as each other. Same/similar amount of energy is required, they use same/similar technologies to extract it from the same fuel, etc.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-08-20 7:28 AM (#29424 - in reply to #29414)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1416
1000100100100100
Location: sc
Originally written by hav2ride on 2005-08-19 8:13 PM

I wasn't referring to engine braking power, my 450 has more wheel braking power than my 350 did.  And, no, I'm pretty sure there are a few others out there that also tow with a 450.  I'm also sure that you have never driven my rig.


manual or auto trans? and im sure it does have more "wheel braking"(im guessing youre refering the the larger brakes) than the f350, it has to, the truck itself weighs more, does it not? the brakes have to be able to stop what ever weight the truck is rated to carry (GVWR). and what is special about your trailer? ive driven enough truck/trailer combinations over the years to know what youre talking about.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
hav2ride
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-21 10:30 AM (#29443 - in reply to #29424)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1719
1000500100100
Location: PA

"the brakes have to be able to stop what ever weight the truck is rated to carry (GVWR)."

With this statement,your opinion that the increased braking ability is perceived is proved false.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-08-21 6:53 PM (#29447 - in reply to #29443)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1416
1000100100100100
Location: sc
Originally written by hav2ride on 2005-08-21 11:30 AM

"the brakes have to be able to stop what ever weight the truck is rated to carry (GVWR)."

With this statement,your opinion that the increased braking ability is perceived is proved false.

well if you say so.

i would still disagree. according to your logic because there is enough brake power to stop a larger load, youre expecting to come to a much shorter stop with a smaller load, this is unlikely. traction is a large portion of this equation and of course the whole "objects in motion, tend to stay in motion" aka more weight takes longer to stop operating on the pricipal the brakes are adequate.

this is sort of like upsizing brakes on a car for autocross or racing. the larger brakes will give some increased braking performance, but the stopping distance is not usually much shorter. the payoff is in the lack of brake fade during repetive full power stops occuring while racing, not the single panic stop encountered on the street.

let me ask you this, and i realize youre under the assumtion that with a load the larger truck will stop quicker..........without a load whose truck will probably stop quicker? my little 4400# suv or your 8500#(?) f450?

BTW what does your truck weigh?

and to anyone else following this, this is really splitting hairs. 



Edited by chadsalt 2005-08-21 7:07 PM
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-21 7:25 PM (#29449 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 2689
2000500100252525
I believe the following to be true.

Most of the trucks in the range we're likely to be talking about have adequate brakes for a full on hard "panic" stop, maybe three or more of them in quick succession, though I'm not so sure I'd expect them to be able to do this at their full rated load.

f=mA and all that stuff, where f is limited by the coefficient of friction between the tires and the road. f is a function of m.

In the ideal situation the truck's brakes stop the truck, the trailer's brakes stop the trailer - all in perfect balance.

In reality trailer brake technology is at least a generation (maybe three) behind truck/car brake tech. Hence the truck is closer to the ideal than the trailer and has to bear some of the trailer's decelleration burden.

The trailer's decelleration burden is less significant when borne by a heavier truck, i.e. the trailer can't push a heavier truck against it's brakes as easily as it can a lighter truck.
Tails wag lighter dogs more easily than they do heavier dogs (for a hypothetical "same tail").

So Yeah, What SHE said,
not what HE said.

(-:


share Top of the page Bottom of the page
chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-08-21 8:04 PM (#29451 - in reply to #29449)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1416
1000100100100100
Location: sc

Originally written by Reg on 2005-08-21 8:25 PM

 The trailer's decelleration burden is less significant when borne by a heavier truck, i.e. the trailer can't push a heavier truck against it's brakes as easily as it can a lighter truck. Tails wag lighter dogs more easily than they do heavier dogs (for a hypothetical "same tail"). 

i would also agree about the first part of that post. however most of the time no one is asking can they pull a 30' gn with their smaller truck. so we are not talking about the "same tail". we are talking about a "tail" the appropriate size acording to the manuf. hell my loaded trailer is only 6000#, most gn empty, weigh close to that.

also my particular trailer brakes can be adjusted through the brake controller to lock under full braking power. so in a panic stop if the tires are sliding, brake technology is really not relavant, as the avaliable traction has been overcome. i suspect current suspension tech would come into play here. 



Edited by chadsalt 2005-08-21 8:10 PM
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
Reg
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2005-08-21 10:40 PM (#29453 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 2689
2000500100252525
As I remember it hav2ride has been talking about HER SAME TRAILER being behind the F450 vs the F350. {Same tail, bigger dog, a dog less wagged}.

I don't think (m)any of us here have argued in favor of upsizing the truck one notch and upsizing the trailer even more.
Heck, that would diminish our "over trucked" factor, for many our biggest and brightest status sybol. )-;

Chadsalt, you can consider your drift to have been caught.

share Top of the page Bottom of the page
chadsalt
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2005-08-22 6:07 AM (#29462 - in reply to #29281)
Subject: RE: A few questions on tow vehicles:


Expert


Posts: 1416
1000100100100100
Location: sc
while that may be true reg, im only trying to explain that within the GCWR what ever truck/trailer combo will be able to stop effectively. i never disputed a larger truck smaller trailer should in theory stop quicker than a larger truck large trailer. i was recently approached on the subject, again, that i would not have enough brakes to stop my rig with my little suv. so i know this is a widespread, common misconception..........wont be long before im overtrucked too, just got to be in the "in" crowd.
share Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
Message format
 

'
Registered to: Horse Trailer World
(Delete all cookies set by this site)