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Veteran
Posts: 296
 
Location: Tennessee | This one's for you people with halogen loading lights. How bright are your loading lights? When you turn them on, do the other lights get dimmer?
Today I put two of those rectangular 55w halogen utility lights on our Logan because the stock Logan loading light (only one) is just a cheap Bargman fixture with a tail light bulb in it. Pretty lame. Anyway, I hooked up the halogens in parallel to the existing loading light circuit, since I didn't want to mess with running a lot of new wiring. I used 14 gauge wire, but I noticed that the existing circuit was 16 gauge or smaller. When I got it all hooked up and turned them on, the rest of the lights dimmed down quite a bit and the loading lights came on kind of slow, like they were being turned on with a rheostat or something. They're not as bright as I thought they'd be either (albeit still way better than the cheapo stock thing).
I'm thinking about putting in a dedicated circuit, but not sure if it's worth the hassle. Any thoughts? |
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Expert
Posts: 5870
 
Location: western PA | The 16ga wire is too small and doesn't have enough capacity for 110w and the length of the wiring run. You would be better off with a new 12 ga wire. Gard |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | You might be right, gard, but I don't really know how far the 16 gauge wire run is. If it's just to the switch it's only about 6 feet, which should be plenty big for 110 watts/12 volts. If they ran 16 gauge from the switch to the front of the trailer, then I'd agree with you...needs to be 12 gauge. I didn't bother with checking it since the wiring isl inside conduit and I was starting to get hungry. :D
I'd still like to know whether or not your running lights get dimmer when you switch on your loading lights, and how bright your loading lights are. |
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Expert
Posts: 2614
| We've had 2 trailers with a halogen load light,and it didn't cause the other lights to dim when it was switched on. |
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | If your loading lights are on the same feed circuit as your running lights, the additional lighting will cause the whole string to dim. The dimming is a direct indication that your circuit hasn't the necessary capacity. If you add up all the lights that are illuminated at the same time, you will find a considerable amount of draw, far more than the recent 110watts. Remember, your circuit is only as good as its weakest link, the 16ga wire. It would be as if you're trying to run a 4" fire hose out of a 1/2" house hold faucet feed pipe. If you had a supply wire of 12 ga, that was reduced to 16ga at each light, it would be a different story. Gard |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 714
Location: Minnesota | The other problem that could occur with overloaded 16 gauge wire is that it will heat. Could eventually melt and short out. Not just the actual wire being used, but anything touching it, i.e. other wires. If you can isolate that wire, you can use it to fish a new 12 gauge wire through the conduit. |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | Originally written by gard on 2008-03-30 5:56 PM
If your loading lights are on the same feed circuit as your running lights, the additional lighting will cause the whole string to dim.
That's apparently the case, since that's what's happening. Guess I need to find where they are joined and separate them.
Never simple, is it? :D |
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Veteran
Posts: 129
Location: Northwest Ohio | We bought our 1999 Sundowner GN LQ last year at this time and used it all season. Everything worked well for most of the year. But in November, I noticed the load lights were extremely dim, if lit at all. Couldn't be turned on with the interior lights or else all would go out. Interior lights work well but load lights barely light. Haven't had time to study it, but I hate the fact that I know they worked not too long ago and now won't.
Edited by Candy girl 2008-03-31 3:18 PM
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | Originally written by Candy girl on 2008-03-31 4:13 PM I noticed the load lights were extremely dim, if lit at all. Couldn't be turned on with the interior lights or else all would go out. Interior lights work well but load lights barely light. QUOTE] You have at least one or perhaps multiple wiring connector problems that are not allowing enough current to the lights. I would start with the trailer plug and work back through each connection. Somewhere is a dirty connection. If they are a take apart style, clean the wire ends and apply a coating of dielectric grease when reassembling. Gard |
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Veteran
Posts: 129
Location: Northwest Ohio | Thanks Gard. I have to admit I don't know how to do what you suggested but will ask hubby to do so after April 15 when his overtime stops. Something else I just thought of.... Apparently our rear interior (horse part) and loading lights are separate from the main power switch in the LQ. We keep that main LQ switch turned off in the winter but the rear tack room light works (and the loading lights try). We do have a solar charger on the top of the trailer. Do you think the rear lights are tied to the charger? We had electric hookup the last time we used the trailer and the load lights didn't work right then either. I know I rambled. Hopefully you understand what I was trying to convey. |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | OK had time to dig into the wiring on our Logan Competitor. Turns out that Logan used 6 wire cable on this trailer, even though it has a 7-way plug. The cable runs from the plug back to a junction box at the very back of the trailer. Must be 35 feet of 6-wire cable I would guess. From the junction box, it's tied into the rest of the trailer wiring using 16 gauge wire, including the loading light switch.
Assuming this cable has 14 gauge wire in it, which runs about 35 feet and then steps down to about 6 feet of 16 gauge wire, it's no wonder I'm not getting full power to the two 55 watt loading lights I added. Even if I put a new 7 wire cable in with 12 gauge wire in it, with more than 35 feet of wiring, it's still not going to carry enough juice for the way this trailer is wired.
I'm wondering if I can just run a dedicated 10 gauge wire from the loading lights and tie into the existing 14 gauge wire back about 6 feet from the plug. That would give me about 6 or 7 feet of 14 gauge that will carry all the lights (surely not more than 240 watts), at which point the 10 gauge will branch off and carry the 110 watts for the loading lights to the back of the trailer, about 30 feet or so.
Will this work?
As an alternative, I guess I could run the 10 gauge wire all the way to the plug and connect to the 7th unused plug, which I assume is the auxillary circuit. I'd have to wrap it up where the hitch pigtail is exposed, though, or maybe use convolute tubing or something. Would this be better?
Edited by Towfoo 2008-04-06 11:51 AM
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | If I understand what you're saying, you plan on powering your two new lights with a 10ga wire, that will tap into a 14ga feed, and eliminate the present 16ga circuit? 10ga seems like an overkill for 6 ft of circuit wiring. By eliminating the 16ga wire, your "weakest" part is now upgraded to 14ga. I would try a piece of 14ga first, and if you still have dimming problems, consider upgrading to a new single 12ga feed from the plug. Gard |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | No, the 10 gauge would run from the light switch at the back of the trailer up to the front of the trailer and tie in about 6 feet from the plug, right where the main cable enters a conduit that runs to the back of the trailer. There would still be about 6 feet of 16 gauge wire from the switch to the lights. In other words, from the truck/trailer plug, there would be about 6 feet of 14 gauge wire that would carry all the running lights and the loading light wattage. At that point, i'd splice in the 10 gauge and run it back to the loading light switch, which is about 25 feet or so (30 max). From the switch there is about 6 feet of 16 gauge to the lights. This 10 + 16 gauge circuit is dedicated to the loading lights.
Or, I could just tie the 10 gauge into the plug and use the aux. circuit from the truck. That would be about 35 feet of 10 gauge to the switch, plus 6 ft of 16 gauge from switch to light.
Kinda hard to describe, but hopefully what I've typed makes sense.
Edited by Towfoo 2008-04-06 12:15 PM
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | The 16ga wire is what is giving you problems. Even with a new feed to the switch, the smaller lighting wire will probably give you the same results you have now. Your new feed will give you more available amps at the switch, but then loose them going through the running light circuit. If you use your aux circuit to power all of your running lights, you will have to manually turn them on and off at the trailer, and not use your truck's switch? It would help to splice in a larger feed wire aft of the plug, it would eliminate your line losses. Regardless of how much larger the new line is, you will only have the current availability of the 14ga wire through the plug Sorry I'm having a time figuring out your description. Gard |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | Nah, it's my inability to describe what I'm trying to do.
OK try this. Below I have attached two jpg pictures, one of the existing wiring, the other of my proposed wiring scheme. In both, there will be about 6 ft of 16 gauge wire from the switch to the lights. According to this wire gauge table, 16 gauge will easily carry 110 watts for 6 feet.
http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm
OK, now look at the the existing wiring and you'll see that EVERYTHING goes thru a 14 gauge wire for about 35 feet, at which point it branches off to various places at a junction box.
What I'm considering is running a dedicated 10 gauge wire to the loading light switch from about 6 ft behind the trailer plug. The circuit will still be shared with the running lights, but only for about 6 feet, at which point the 10 gauge will "offload" the loading light current. I'll remove the existing 16 gauge connection from switch to junction box so that no current goes that way. The wiring table above shows that 14 gauge can carry 240 watts for 7 feet. I know the running light circuit does not draw that much even with the extra 110 watts of loading lights. I just want to be sure this will work before I do it.
The other idea is to just run the 10 gauge to the aux pin on the plug. I would remove the 16 gauge wire from switch to junction box so the running lights would still be on a separate switched circuit. I'm pretty sure this will work but the 10 gauge wire would be on the outside of the connecting cable, so I'd have to wrap it up somehow to keep it from chaffing or getting snagged on something. I'm also not sure if the aux circuit is switched. I'm not too keen on having an unswitched circuit connected to the tow vehicle. Guess I could look into that, though. |
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | Lets go to the end and work backward. If I'm correct, I believe you said all your running lights and your new two loading lights are on the same circuit? Add up the total number of running lights you have, including your license plate and tail lamps; the total number on that present circuit. Determine the draw in amps or watts for each of the bulbs. Multiply the amps by twelve to get watts, or divide the watts by twelve to get amps. Multipy the amps or watts of each bulb by the total number of bulbs. Add in the 110 watts or 9 amps for the loading lights to that figure for a total. This grand total, plus an additional 20% will be your total draw on the circuit, not counting your line losses.. The wiring from the plug to your switch, will have to be large enough to carry your total load. The wiring from your switch to the lights, can be smaller depending on the number of lights on each circuit. On my truck, the aux wire is hot all the time. It is used to charge the trailer's batteries and supply lighting to my stall areas. If I hooked it up to my lighting circuit, they would be illuminated whenever my truck is running. First figure out how much power you need, then by using a combination of your two circuits, a new one can be designed. It shouldn't be difficult. One formula I learned is P= I X E or pie. P is power in watts. I is the voltage. E is the amperage. I or E can each be determined by dividing into P. Your charts may have the capacities stated in amps or wattage. AC wiring capacity is commonly determined by amperage, and a continuously run circuit should not exceed 80% of it's rated capacity for heat considerations. Gard |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | Originally written by gard on 2008-04-06 3:19 PM
Lets go to the end and work backward. If I'm correct, I believe you said all your running lights and your new two loading lights are on the same circuit?
Right now they are. If my "10 gauge pre-junction tap" idea won't work I'll give the loading lights their own circuit from the auxillary pin.
Add up the total number of running lights you have, including your license plate and tail lamps; the total number on that present circuit.
If I've got my bulb amps right, the stock running light circuit draws 11.6 amps (twelve 194 markers and four 1156 tail/interior lights). This all goes through the ~35 ft of 14 gauge before branching off to each light with 16 gauge from the junction box.The two 55w loading lights push it to 20.64 amps, which of course is too much for 35 feet of 14 gauge alone. Probably even too much for 12 gauge.
The wiring from the plug to your switch, will have to be large enough to carry your total load.
That's my point: I am wanting to separate the loading lights from the running lights six feet from the truck connector by tapping into the main cable with 10 gauge wire up under the nose of the trailer. That way, only six feet of 14 gauge carries the total 20.6 amps. The current is then separated so that the 9 amps for the loading lights go down about 30 feet of 10 gauge wire, while the other 11 or so amps continue on the same as they always did.
The wiring from your switch to the lights, can be smaller depending on the number of lights on each circuit.
Only the loading lights and two stall lights come off the switch. The two loading lights are fed by 6 ft of 16 gauge, and the two stall lights are fed with about 15 feet of 16 gauge (although one is closer to junction box).
AC wiring capacity is commonly determined by amperage, and a continuously run circuit should not exceed 80% of it's rated capacity for heat considerations.
I take it "continuously run" means the same as DC current? |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | Nevermind. I just realized the truck fuse for trailer running light circuit only rated 20 amps. If I turn on the loading lights and all the interior lights at the same time it may blow the fuse. Oh well, better I wasted time here than running a bunch of wire for nothing.
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | I was just reading the chart you posted. If I'm reading it correctly, a 12v circuit that is drawing 20 amps over a distance of 25 ft (the longest distance in the chart), needs a 10ga wire. Your plug wire is a 14 ga which is only good for 12 amps over the same distance. Does your trailer have its own battery? Or is it totally dependant on the truck? What does it use for a break away, brake source? Could a battery be installed and hooked to a circuit that would involve the stall and loading lights, and keeping the original circuit for only the running lights? Your aux circuit from the truck could be used to recharge the battery. Gard |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | It's totally stock right now, except for the loading lights I put on it. It does have a breakaway battery, which I assume is on the brake wire circuit (haven't checked). I would like to add a deep cycle battery eventually, but for now I just want to get the loading lights to work off the truck. Looks like the aux circuit is the way to go there.
Seems strange to me that Logan only used a 6 wire cable with a 7 pin plug, but that's what they did. I guess they don't expect people to upgrade the hokey loading lights they put on these trailers.
Thanks for all the feedback, gard. |
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | Could your break away battery be replaced with a larger deep cycle, and used as a power source for the lights? I wonder what the amperage is for a common LED running light. I don't know the costs, should be easy to check out. If they draw less power, it might be a more simple way to fix the problem than rewiring. Hey, there's got to be a way to fix this thing. This forum is loaded with the genius types; maybe after the weekend some will show up with a few good ideas. Gard
Edited by gard 2008-04-06 7:29 PM
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | If I have followed all of this correctly... 7 way plug and 6 way wire. Running lights and aux. lights share the same 16 ga. wire. Assumedly your trailer has back up lights since all 6 wires are used, or are they? Add another junction box at the front of the trailer and change to a 7 way wire from the plug to the junction box. Then seperate your load lights from there on a 12 ga. wire. This will also give you the ability to add a battery at a later time and have a recharge line from your vehicle's aux. It will just make everything simpler and easier to follow in the future. You'll tie your battery into the junction box and should be good to go. Unless I am missed something in one of the posts. |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | Tresvolte, yes you have it right, except there are no backup lights. BUT...you gave me an idea. Assuming this means there's an unused 14 gauge wire in the main cable, can I hook the unused wire to the aux pin and feed the loading lights with that? It won't deliver full power because it's so long (35 ft), but I'm thinking it will be plenty bright enough for now. I know the wire will get warmer than a 12 gauge wire, but do you think it will get too hot? It'll only get used every once in a while, and for probably no more than 10-15 minutes at a time.
Adding a short piece of 7 way wire between the plug and a junction box on the nose of the trailer is a great idea, too. That's probably what I'll do if the 14 gauge wire is going to catch fire or something. I'd like to eventually replace this 6 way cable with a 7 way, but that'll require buying 35 feet of cable at $3/ft and rewiring the whole trailer, which I don't want to do right now. |
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | That is exactly why I was asking. Use the 14 Gauge wire that exists in the 6 wire cable. Put it to the aux. circuit on the truck, and you should be fine. You are only going to be drawing 9 amps total on that circuit and it should be fine. Now if you are leaving them on constantly, then it is a different story. By doing this it will seperate your running lights and load lights, which should be done anyways. That way you can use your load lights without your running lights having to be on. |
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Veteran
Posts: 296
Location: Tennessee | You're an electrical genius, Tresvolte! I think you just saved me a bunch of time. :-) Thanks! |
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | Thank you, but I am no genius. I get lucky sometimes and other times... |
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Electrical question - loading lights
