My g/f just called,she'd stopped at a convenience store on her way to work and was told gas/fuel prices are going to jump 30-40 cents because of this hurricane,supposedly tomorrow morning.

SaddleSore

Regular gas in central NC just jumped $0.15 or 6% in the last hours around Noon.

Shoulda filled the dooley's empty tank yesterday...40 gallons

Todd .. I disagree with your assesment  If the oil companies were making such profits, their stock would be a lot higher.  Sure, their profit is higher than before.  The oil companys make slightly more money with a higher price. It's called margin.  Still...I think the major money is going to the producers.  After all, the oil in the ground didn't change. 

As for the storm damage causing the oil spike.  The higher prices are being balanced by the cost of storm damage and the time cost of shuttered refineries.  I don't believe the oil companies are getting a big shot of profit in that balance.

I would rather choose to pay or not pay for gas than not be able to get gas at all ... (the consequence of price controls)

So my question is - Are you cutting back on any of your driving, either daily or horse related?  Being a frugal one income family, I've already passed on hauling to a couple of shows, and we've cut back on trail-riding plans for this fall.  I am also curious as to whether we'll be seeing more "larger" used trailers on the market as or if people downsize.  I certainly hope these increased fuel cost are not going to become the norm.

Sarah 

My dad work for Citgo for 24 years then retired.  He is now getting calls from companies to come back to work for companies that are wanting to expand production.  Thats the reason for the price,  we have all the oil we need we can't refine it quick enough to get to market.  Unfortunately trying to expand a facility now adays is next to impossible because of all the legal/environmental concerns that are present.  Yeah taking care of the environment is a good thing, but if we want fuel for 1.50 a gallon then realize that refineries will have to expand.

Go to your public meetings and listen to the nonsense arguments that people come up with against such expansions.  Well duh if you buy a house next to a refinery it will smell bad in that area.

I have not changed any show plans for the rest of the year. But next- I doubt I'll do out of state shows. but thats the way it is, when things get expensive, we have to make a choice. ground beef or steak? Chicken or pork? health insurance or not? new car or used- we face these choices all the time.

Unleaded just jumped from $2.74/gallon to $2.99 in a matter of two days. These are painful numbers to swallow and hard enough to see when the numbers on the pump rise. Yeah it plain sucks, I am sick of it, but we are in a real bad time right now, just have to go with it. I sometimes question the rest of my show season as far as traveling but I figure, that I can control how money leaves my wallet in other ways, like less shopping at The Gap.

How much do you pay for bottled water?  Does that bother you?

There hasn't been a new refinery built in 25-30 years.  Any idea how much more demand for gasoline/diesel/fuel oil there is now? 

Anyone want to make an educated comparison of gasoline prices 20-30 years ago vs today (ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION)?

Any state legislatures willing to lower the massive taxes on road fuels?

Anyone willing to open up more parts of Alaska for drilling?

Come on now . . . is it really ALL the fault of the big bad oil companies?

I sure don't think so . . . but then again I'm not a big conspiracy buff

It's the "sticker shock" that is getting everyone all wound up over gas prices. A gallon of gas going up 50-60cents in a matter of days? That is the problem people are having. If prices went up that much over a few years time, there would be less complaining.

I say quit your whining about how much it is costing you to fill up your vehicle and take a good look at what is happening down south right now. These people have nothing. It is quite humbling to say the least.

We are very fortunate,they're expecting the death toll to be around a thousand.

I just witnessed a girl put $92.00 in a Chevy Surburban and she'd put $16.00 in it about 15 miles earlier.

SaddleSore

What really irritates me is the fact that retailers use this horrible event to artificially inflate prices. Some people were on the radio this morning talking about how the hotel they were staying in raised prices after there were there for 2 days just because the knew they would be at full capacity. What a crock !!! If anything, they should give these people a discount because of the situation they are in. With their hotel at full capacity, that should actually decrease the price of the room, not increase it.

It was also reported last night that the amount of oil in the US will not change because of Katrina and Congress is insensed at the fact retailers are raising prices.......up to $1.00 a gallon increase in some areas. Louisiana produces approximately 40% of all US oil and only 25% of the refineries have been affected. That's about 10% of the total US Refineries. The remaining refineries in the US have agreed to increase their production to help make up for the loss. In addition, the US Government will release reserves to make up the difference. Therefore, there SHOULD NOT be any cost increase. Will someone please tell the retailers they need to be looking at what THEY can do to help the victims and not gouge the rest of us as they laugh all the way to the bank. I wouldn't have a problem with it if they all agreed to take the extra profits and donate them to help the victims of Katrina but I assure you, they have no intention of that.

Champ ... I don't agree with your assessment.    The problem is not oil supply, it is refinery capacity. We need gasoline, not crude oil in our cars.  Releasing oil from the Strategic reserve doesn't really help.  It's PR to soothe the ignorant masses.  Although it might depress crude prices a bit for a moment. 

The refineries are operating at about maximum capacity.  Where did you get that the remaining refineries agreed to increase their production?  "US demand has exceeded US crude oil distillation capacity every year since 1985"  This is from the Dep't of Energy  http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/pdf/feature/lidder3.pdf

There is no extra capacity.  That's why the prices are rising.  Supply and demand.  Somewhere in the ocean, a tanker (No..several tankers) of gasoline are getting the command to divert to the US because the price is higher than at the original destination.  It wll take several days to get here and several days to get to your favorite gas station.  The price will drop then...  The free market works better than any system, yet devised by man, to adapt to change.  Be careful of what you ask for.  If Gov't acts, it will only to muck it up. 

I'm just repeating what was televised last night on the NBC news. It was a State Representative to Congress who provided the information.

I do agree that demand does control prices to a certain extent as does supply. However, the end product we see at the gas stations should not be affected by the crude oil prices until that final product, gasoline, reaches the gas stations. I would understand it if crude oil prices rose this week and 2 months from now when the gasoline from that crude oil reached the gas stations, the gas price increased to reflect the increased crude price. However, that is not the case. They did not pay inflated prices for the gas they owned but yet increased their prices to the consumer.....all in the name of increased profits. It's all about Cost of Goods and markup and their COG's have not seen an increase but their markup certainly has. If crude oil prices fall $10.00 a barrel next week, do you think they would drop the prices comparably? NOPE. You also can't tell me that supply and demand have doubled in the past year to justify the price per gallon doubling. I can't think of anything that has doubled in price in the past 12 months.

Lastly, how can anyone justify the variance in price from $5.67 in Atlanta, GA to $3.69 in Chicago? How can anyone justify one Shell station at $2.99 and another one less than a mile away at $2.74? Different gas.....I don't think so. Different markup, BINGO. Unfortunately the retailers have the option to dictate prices in their area regardless of the cost and they are using the hurricane as an immediate excuse to raise prices and increase their profits. I don't agree with it just as I don't agree with hotel owners raising their prices for the hurricane victims.

These are my own opinions..........and you know what they say about opinions.

For every gallon we pump into our vehicles that gallon must be replaced in the service station tank.  If the station has to pay a higher price to replace that gallon that you just bought.  Then they have to charge you more to stay in busineess. 

Champhorse .. you know what is said about politians and facts...

Actually I would like to attempt to justify the price increase in Atlanta.  I read a blog today that says it much better than I could ever write.

Neal Boortz:  http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

When you hear the words "price gouging" uttered by somebody .. even if that somebody is the governor of a state .. you know that you are listening to someone who (a) has a limited understanding of the basics of free-market economics; or, (b) is a politician more interested in pandering to ignorance than in leading.

That describes Atlanta yesterday.

Yesterday afternoon I drove to the WSB studios to participate in a joint AM 750 WSB / Channel 2 fund raising venture. On the way I saw that cars were lined up on the streets waiting to get into gas stations. The panic was on. Word had spread throughout the metro area that there was going to be a fuel shortage. Everyone, it seems, was filling up everything they had that could hold gasoline.

The panic, of course, created that shortage that previously was only a rumor. Even when there is no shortage of gasoline, there is simply no possible way to keep the underground tanks at every service station full if everyone is going to try to fill up their car at the same time. There simply aren't enough tanker trucks on the road to do the job. When rumors create a panic and creates a demand that the marketplace can't meet, it's time for the mechanisms of the free market to take control.

There has never in the history of the world been a better way to allocate scarce resources than to simply allow the law of supply and demand to take its course. Whenever government steps in to interfere, shortages occur and chaos often reigns.

The way to handle the gas panic in Atlanta yesterday was to RAISE PRICES! It's not price gouging. It's the law of supply and demand at work. Today there will be people in Atlanta who might not be able to drive their own cars to work, to doctors appointments or to buy groceries who would otherwise be driving if gas stations throughout Atlanta had raised their prices in response to the increased demand and limited supply.

Let me explain:

As the panic spread, and the demand increased, the prices at the pumps were pretty much unchanged ... for a while. As a result people decided to top off every vehicle they owned .. .no matter how much gas remained in the tank. The predictable result was that stations soon ran out of fuel. The word spread, and more people hit the streets to fill more cars. Today people in Atlanta will find that many gas stations still have their pumps shut down. Throughout the night tanker trucks were busy trying to replenish the stations, but there simply aren't enough trucks to meet this demand. Another supply problem.

So .. what was the solution? For the politician the solution may have been to pander to the electorate by talking about imposing fines on gas station operators who "overcharge", whatever that means, consumers. The real solution, though, was to increase prices in response to the increased demand and limited supply. This is what the uninformed and the political class call "price gouging."

Let's take a look at what would have happened if the free market had been allowed to do what it has always done so well -- when left alone -- and that is to allocate scarce resources. If gas prices had risen strongly yesterday (as they in fact did at some stations) then people would have given a second thought to filling every car they own. If the prices were, say, $5 a gallon, consumers would have purchased what they thought they might need to get through the next few days, and would have started making plans for conservation., Certainly few people would have been shuttling back and forth filling up every car they owned. As a result, the gas that one consumer didn't pump into his second or third car because the price was so high would have been gas available for someone to put into the car they actually needed to get to work.
Keeping the prices artificially low encouraged over-consumption and hoarding.

The truth is that when Georgia's Governor Sonny Perdue signed an executive order late yesterday afternoon threatening heavy fines on gasoline retailers who, as he said "overcharge" customers, he became a part of the problem and not a part of the solution. His statements were a signal to the people that there was a crisis in gasoline supplies, and to get out there and fill up everything they could while he held the prices down. Today Atlanta drivers will experience the results of the governor's actions.

This whole price gouging nonsense was also front and center last year when four hurricanes ripped through Florida. Entrepreneurs abandoned plans to rush needed supplies and commodities to South Florida when politicians started pandering to voters with dire threats of fines and even jail time for evil price gougers. The marketplace simply wasn't allowed to respond properly to increased demand .. and shortages resulted.

Here's an example I used yesterday. Hotel and motel rooms. In the aftermath of the hurricane -- especially Hurricane Charley -- there was a huge demand for rooms for displaced hurricane victims. So, here come the politicians with their laws restricting what motel owners could charge for rooms. The result was that fewer families could find a place to stay. Here's why: A family of four arrives seeks shelter at a hotel where rooms rates are being held down by anti-price gouging laws. They decide to get two rooms when one would do. One room for mom and dad, the adjoining room for the children. Along comes the second family of four, only to find that there are no more rooms. Sorry, out of luck. Now, if prices had been allowed to rise with the demand that first family might have decided to make do with one room instead of two. That would have left a room available for the next family to arrive.

This is a problem borne of economic ignorance. Our hideous government schools do a pathetic job of teaching the very basics of free market economics. The ignorance of the public is then exploited by politicians for votes and support.

And thus it will ever be.

Perhaps your definition of "Price Gouging" and mine are different explaining why you do not consider what is going on to be price gouging. Perhaps I find it more unethical than anything else. I am basing my opinion on the fact that COG have NOT increased but retailers have inflated prices because the demand due to a natural disaster forces people to pay it. The example you gave about the hotel prices, what difference does it make if 1 family gets 2 rooms instead of 1? The hotel makes the same amount of money whether it's 1 party renting 2 rooms or 2 parties renting 2 rooms. The only difference is that they are using the demand as the result of a hurricane to jack the price up so they make more money......nothing more. And because people are desperate to find a place to stay, they are forced to pay the inflated prices. Yes, demand is a principal of economics but I find the fact that they are using demand as a result of a natural diseaster completely unethical and fits MY definition of price gouging or unethical pricing (if you find that term more acceptable). Do you think the panic over gas in Atlanta was a result of people's panic or people's panic was a result of the prices rising? 

 I have no problems with any business owner making a living and making profit on the goods and services they sell. However, in the wake of the disaster of Katrina, I find it nauseating many of them choose to take advantage of the situation for their own personal gain, and you cannot honestly tell me there aren't plenty of them doing exactly that. Those are the ones I have the problem with. I applaud the businesses who are showing humanitarianism and attempting to help the victims and their families, not the ones who choose to prosper from their tragedies.

Ok champ- lets take your example and piece it out.

there are 10 rooms in the hotel and 10 families needing space. Under your scenario- ( one family taking two rooms rather than one) only 5 families will enjoy a hotel room, the other 5 are out of luck. (I suppose THATS the humaniatrian thing to do). But no, the owner of the hotel prices the rooms in such a manner each family could afford one room, thus all 10 families are in a room,dry and warm. Did they pay more? yes they, did but in the end they all got a room.

In the same way, when gas is being comsumed in far greater quanity, the only way to ration it out is to make it more expensive. Then ,instead of being a greedy hog and filling your tank when half a tank would do( or renting two rooms when one would do), other people have a chance to buy some gas. Not to mention, once the fuel tanks are empty, the owner of the gas station will likey have a hard time finding more product to fill the tanks- then they are losing alot of money.

I know there are likely thousands of good,decent people handing out whatever they can to help whoever they can. Its not a dog eat dog world out there however, when the ecomonics of supply and demand take hold, people end up being helped, not hurt, by it. 

just another thought on this,

the people that had to evacuate their homes where surely of a mixed income where the one with plenty of money would most likely still purchase an additional room for the kids if needed even at the inflated prices. The less fortunate (poor person) that just lost everything feels alittle used at this time cause he and his family can no longer afford a room at all due to the motels inflating their prices all in the name of keeping folks from hoarding up all the rooms. Call this what you like but gouging seems to be an appropriate term to me.                   

                                       Ardly

Hats off to you, Ardly !! Well said.

"This is a problem borne of economic ignorance. Our hideous government schools do a pathetic job of teaching the very basics of free market economics. The ignorance of the public is then exploited by politicians for votes and support."

pretty much explains it all, champ

I think it is price gouging.  There is a simple way to limit the hotel and gas problems that you have been talking about.  Limit the purchase.  One hotel room per family unless they are going to be over the legal occupancy.  That way both families of 4 have their rooms and no one is left sleeping in the street.  It is selfish to take more than you need during an emergency.  Limit the amount of gas purchased to, oh lets say 10 gallons each purchase.  No reason to raise prices and make what supplies are left unaffordable. 

Gas prices I can understand rising because of the refinery/ oil rig damage.  But when gas stations not 50 miles from here are over $3 per gallon, and the local gas stations are still selling gas for $2.60 then it looks like someone is taking advantage of the situation and that is wrong.  There is a difference between supply and demand and taking advantage of a disaster.  My neighbour is making al list of those that are jacking up the prices (way above others) and plans on not buying from them even when the prices go back down.

I think in the situation the "humanitarian" thing to do would be impose a limit - not a price increase.

I am a sophomore at Indiana State University, and I personally think that the econ profs there do a GOOD job explaining free market economics. For those of you who don't understand it, maybe you should have woke up and gone to class, it does wonders.

As for the increased gas prices, if the media would shut up and leave it alone, people wouldn't get nearly as worked up. Just be glad you have what you have. If going in town costs a little bit more than it used to, only make one trip instead of 5. Just be glad you have a home left to go back to. Those people down south have nothing left, so suck it up and get over it.

If you think that people wouldn't get worked up over gas prices jumping up $.75 in less than a week (with out the media)then you need to get out of class for a few minutes.    Not everyone can afford to pay extra for the gas.  I know for a fact that a neighbour of mine was just getting her bills paid and is now not buying her allergy meds to make up the difference. 

Your a sophomore so... what 19-20?  Wait until your having to work and on a budget.  Then you'll understand why people are up set. 

Hummmm didn't take econ in University... guess I'm not so bright huh????? 

Many of us understand econ - we just don't agree with this. It is nothing but companies feeding off a disaster to pad their own pockets.

Those folks in the south are also having to pay the extra gas prices - some did get out with their vehicles - so are those people any less important?

I have no problem paying more if there is a valid reason, an actual oil shortage, gas company giving extra for aid down there (like that will ever happen!).... but I'm not a big fan of padding the pockets of the Oil companies.

I'm in Canada - we send oil to the US - we don't get oil from the gulf... so why the he!! did our gas go up???? And no - some of the gas companies do not work both sides of the boarder - but yet those Canadian company's prices are some of the highest???? What gives? I see no other explanation other than money grapping!

I've read several comments that bash oil companies or the president.  Nothing specific, just words and opinons bashing... I doubt anything could change the minds of those writers.  logic or fact doesn't seem to matter.

so ... I'll just vent too ...

"...There has never in the history of the world been a better way to allocate scarce resources than to simply allow the law of supply and demand to take its course. Whenever government steps in to interfere, shortages occur and chaos often reigns..."

PS ...MBRA518 .. The europeans are seeing price increases for their gasoline.  The global economy is simply allocating a scare resource.  I'd bet the far east is also seeing ripples of price.

 Not long ago a client who drills for oil and is a geologist from the South told me we have about 20 years left of oil, period.  He told me not to worry because humans would have other means of energy by then.  There are many people in the Biz who know this and are getting their portion of the pie before the whole *#@! burns down.  So I will drive my big F-250 with this big trailer until the fuel runs out, it is the American way.  But will offer rides to those would like to split the gas tank.

  We are all consumers and eventually we will consume all the natural fuel supply on the planet.  The pricing may slow it down but don't think so.  Don't see any reason to have fuel at $3-5 dollars a gallon.  People are not going to stop driving so what is the point.  My kids struggle as young college students to live in this day and age.  No end in sight....

There is no shortage of crude - there is a shortage of refineries. The oil sands in Alberta has one of the largest oil deposits in the world.

Longrider ... a personal insult to Erin doesn't add to this exchange.  Remember, the young folks of today will run the country & support the 60 Yr olds like yourself tommorrow. 

Add bad life choices to unfortunate circumstances and we will always have the needy with us.  And NEEDY is relative.  The neediest of our society with a car to gripe about high fuel prices, is a rich in other parts of the world.

You don't have to have a car to grip about gas prices - with almost everything we buy being shipped - the price of gas affects the price of everything.

We won't see the benefits for years.  The value of higher energy prices is much more energy conservation.  We will learn to do more with less.  It's not easy or simple.  But it is one area we have an advantage over the rest of the world.  Our product cycle is shorter than most.  We have to compete with the world.  Energy is one product that is globally priced.  It is the same for the low wage countries as it is for us.  Running a 6000 pound SUV ten miles to get a qt of milk is wasteful.  Using a 2000 compact car is still wasteful, but more conservative.

Now... pulling a horse trailer with my dually is painfull in the wallet, but a luxury I choose to afford.  I'm on a budget too... Donald Trump rich I an not.

Thanks for backing up my point.  I remember when small cars were suddenly "IN"  during the 70's  Then gas prices stayed about the same till the few last months.  Inflation made the price of gas cheap.  I read that $3.00 was today's inflation adjusted price for 1.00 gas during the 70's oil embargo.

Small cars and hybrids are "IN" today.  Just like the late 70's ... except we didn't have hybrids then.  Just poorly made and designed small american cars.  Vega, Pinto, need I say more?  The import cars ate our lunch then.  Seems like the import hybrids are about to do the same again.  Hybrid Ford SUV ... Hah !  Duh!!!

Except I don't believe the hybrid fits my needs.  I have doubts about battery life cycle.  A compact car is still the better choice for me.

Edited to correct syntax & add some rant.

MBRA,

They've already built a Chevy truck hybrid, apparently it will be able to perform as well as a conventional truck

Went to GM website and compared the hybrid vs. regular  Gas mileage was nearly identical the hybrid had 1mpg better.  Looking at the towing specs.  The hybrid has a higher towing limit, but the payload is nearly 500#'s less.  For the extra money you have to pay don't think a hybrid is worth it.  Maybe the idea appeals to some but give me the old fashioned proven technology.

That's exactly my point!

Sound like we all agree on the hybrids.  I tend to keep a vehicle a long time.  My last daily driver car was 18 years old.  I don't expect the hybrids battery pack to last that long.  Based on my metal hydride cordless drill,  I'd say 5 years is their typical life...  I wonder what the car companies are saying about the battery pack life.

Another random thought on towing.  If the hybrid truck has a higher tow rating yet 500# less payload (Likely battery weight) doesn't that say the truck engineers think a heavier vehicle can tow more, all else being equal ?