I have a question!

I have a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500. It is a heavy duty little truck and hauls my two horse steel trailer (GAWR 2500) with two horses really well. So that is around 4500 pulling a bumper pull (with two horses)

I am looking to get a 4 horse gooseneck, but i am not sure of the GAWR, probably around 5500.  Do you think my truck would haul this ok? The people I am buying it from hauled it up to Maine from Tennessee with a truck just like mine and they said they could hardly tell it was there, but they only had furniture in it. Thank you for your input!

Welcome +1

Reg has answered your original question well.

I would add, the largest issue with a light truck hauling a heavy trailer is NOT pulling it, but stopping it.  The engines are powerful, the suspension can be upgraded with air springs, the tranny can get a honking big cooler, etc.  But, You will need to stop it eventually.  You might even want it to stop right now!  But like the Titantic, it will roll on. 

not exactly, bigger trucks mean more weight to stop when loaded to GVWR, basic physics dictate it will take longer to stop..........bigger wheels actually mean less leverage for breaking(more mass and rotating mass which is some of the reason it needs a bigger brake to start with) which may or may not matter depending on avaliable traction............and you can only fit a brake so large under a 16, 17inch wheel, i have discs just under 13" on the front and just over 13" on the back by my tape measure.

ill wager theyre not much bigger on a 1 ton. you can also only have so much "swept area" and granted a thicker disc will have more "heat sink" capability but now were getting really technical. and i wouldnt expect the trailer to stop the truck, just like the truck alone wont stop the trailer very well. both vehicles have their own brakes designed to stop their respective selves.

I bet my truck on those trailer numbers being over for your truck.  If your trailer states it can haul 10K pounds your truck must also be rated to tow 10K or more.  The law won't care if you never plan on putting all of the 10K pounds in the trailer or not.  You can and may be fined and I believe it's very $$$$$!  Check your state laws and the state laws for any place you'll be towing to and through.

Before I made my trip to NM I e-mailed the state troupers office (looked up their web site) and asked this quiestion. 

The official response I got that the "possible" weight for the trailer/loa

With the weight ratings you provided, the driver is not required to have a
CDL, as long as the actual combination weight does not exceed 26,001 lbs
inclusive of a trailer greater than 10,001 lbs or more.

There is no problem with the weight of the vehicle as the actual weight being displaced on the vehicles is what determines the violation. This allowable weight is determined by axles and axle configurations and tire rating. So as long as the actual weight of the vehicles does not exceed the allowable gross weight allowed or the tire ratings, you should have no problems. Just keep in mind that even though your trailer is rated  at 14,000 lbs most of that weight will actually be distributed to the axles on the trailer with some portion distributed to the towing vehicle. As far as carrying livestock (horses) if you are traveling to NM for work then you would be considered in commerce (private carrier as you only transport your commodity, i.e. horses used in your job) and would be subject to Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations parts 390-399. If you are not “working” and do not use your vehicles for work then you are OK. 

  I have a 1/2 ton Dodge with a 10,000lb trailer limit and a 4 horse slant.  I brought my 2 mares up with me and was not over on anything.  I was close, but legal.  Not that there were any scales open.

OK, let me play "bad barn buddy."

You have a truck and 4 horse trailer.  You only plan on hauling 2 horses which may put you right at your limit.

"What are you going to do with the other two slots?  Can you take my horse?"

Yes, puts you over the limit and I'm not paying for damages...your warranty will be voided if they think you were over weight, so the maker won't pay either FYI.

No, pisses off your riding buddies because you are dragging around dead space.  The temptation to bring along another horse may be too much for you.  Worst case you'll buy another horse and now be really stuck.

the smaller wheels and brakes on my pitiful little trailblazer pulling my 2h sl bp (yes im at the max GVWR) will also stop me. what is your point? are you saying your trailer brakes are or are not functioning properly? i dont understand the point of that statement.

and why is a 1/2 ton with 4h not safe IF it could be managed to the GVWR? say it is a light trailer and 2 small type horses.  youre making a rather broad statement that appears as though youre stating fact. and if, just if, you do mean it as fact....your implied experiance is showing. but if not intended as fact....then i apologize.

I don't haul for other people.  I have 10 acres so there is no "barn buddy" and I go to the large organized rides were I know some people but everyone has their own rigs.   I have also seen people turn flatbed trailers into animal trailers by adding cattle pannels to them.  But they had a 1 ton truck.  And if your friendships are so fragile that saying no to something causes a problem, well....   People ought to be able to understand why you don't want to haul illegal without being offended.

I drove to NM in May and I weighed my trailer/truck fully loaded to make absoultely sure that I wasn't over my limits.  I had wanted to bring about 20 bales of coastal hay with me but having them in the front of the trailer would have put me over so I left them.  I was close, but under and had no problems going over the hills on I10. 

HMMMM.....!! Terri I have a 2003 2500 4x4 auto 3:73 CTD and I think you have a higher tow rating than mine.....???? I think my manual said 9,980 or there abouts....I think I'll go look at it again...

http://dodgeram.info/2003/load-tow/2500.html

http://dodgeram.info/2003/load-tow/1500.html

I guess mine is 10,800....but yours is a bit less??!

youre wasting your time reg.  physics elude some people. and again we are splitting hairs, but i have nothing better to do.

if i remember correctly most unladen pickups stop from 60 mph around 150 feet a full grown 18 wheeler @80000# needs around 350 feet.  im guessing the loaded trucks were talking about fall somwhere in between. so again im speculating, were only talking about a few feet either way, between small horse rigs vs. larger horse rigs. and im still holding to heavier GCWR taking longer to stop.

i will disagree, partly, with the "trouble quicker with the lighter vehicle" statement though.  the lighter vehicle will not have any heavier a load in relation to its own weight. in fact it will likely be less percentage than the heavier 1 ton.  and again it also has less total weight to stop with probably similar sized brakes.

1/2 ton 5200# 9300# trailer = 9300/5200=1.78

1 ton 7500# 15600# trailer =15600/7500 =2.08

 the only technical advantage may be in the dually with the 2 extra contact patches.  the tires on even the smaller trucks are still in the 245mm width.

the 450 does have 15" rotors as compared to 13" on the smaller trucks. this would likely make some difference when switching from "to heavy for 350" that would be at the bottom of the 450's load capacity. which in turn would be like saying my truck stops better with a lawnmower on a utility trailer than it does with my 6000# horse trailer.  and you could go a little farther and say my truck stops really well with no trailer, does that make it safer?  (well actually it does.) an accurated statement, but not really relavant.

 sorry, posted twice.

Maybe this is a dumb answer, or maybe it's too obvious, but I see a lot of horse folks come on this board (and on the trailer lot!) trying to match up a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton truck with too big of a trailer.....So, instead of crunching numbers, if you want to safely haul your horses, why don't you just go trade for a 1 ton truck and be done with it??? 

I think if you can afford to own horses, and land, or board a horse, buy feed, equipment, entry fees, fuel, vet bills, trailers, etc, then surely you can afford a truck that hauls them safely.  I wouldn't own a 1/2 ton truck and pull ANYTHING bigger than a 2 horse BP trailer with a horse in it...sorry, but JMO.  Flame away, I have a tough hide. 

Cindy

No flame here!....I agree....This thread got side tracked.....and I even helped! 

Cindy of Oklahoma posted:  "So, instead of crunching numbers, if you want to safely haul your horses, why don't you just go trade for a 1 ton truck and be done with it??? "

And, as I have said before, will you make my truck, fuel, registration, and insurance payments?

By the way, I drive 44 miles round trip, everyday, for work. I only have 1 vehicle. If I had a bigger truck, I couldn't afford to have a horse and go anyplace.  

If you can't pull safely, DON'T PULL! That's really the bottom line. If you are worried about your truck pulling the trailer, maybe you should take it for a "test pull," most dealers will let you.

I'm not an expert on any of this, but most 19 year olds aren't. That's why I'm not saying yes or no, but it seems to me there are some people here that think they know way to much (or at least more than what they DO know). I would rather take advice from someone who has a cdl or drives trucks/trailers for a living than some know-it-all who pulls a few times a month which makes them an "expert." If you think bigger is better, more power to you, but it seems like a pretty general idea that may not always be true.

Also, just for the record: Financing for a brand new truck with no trade and no down payment: I figured using prices from a 2005 Dodge 3500 and a 2005 Dodge 2500 and a payment calculator on Fifth Third's website and the difference between the two was a whole $68.00. Doesn't seem like a whole lot to me when it comes to the safety of my horse! 

Just my two cents, I'm sure some of ya'll think different, but I suppose that's why we live in America!

Also, just for the record: Financing for a brand new truck with no trade and no down payment: I figured using prices from a 2005 Dodge 3500 and a 2005 Dodge 2500 and a payment calculator on Fifth Third's website and the difference between the two was a whole $68.00. Doesn't seem like a whole lot to me when it comes to the safety of my horse! 

It's not just the $68 a month.  There is the difference between what is owed on the old truck and the trade in value, which is added to the new truck and the extra year of payments.  The extra gas driving 30 miles one way to go to work and finding a parking space at work.  I would love to have a bigger truck, but right now its not possible and since (according to dodge) I am not overloading my truck, it will have to do.

Erin -

While $68 a month for 5 years might not seem like a great deal regarding the safety of my horse... I must also consider all the other related factors as others have previously pointed out. A larger vehicle means MUCH higher insurance payments, higher registration costs, more fuel (and it's not just the money of more fuel... it's all the political crap that the reliance of more fuel puts on the US and the world).

$68 a month would help me pay for a better barn that would be safer for my horse than the 150 year old one that threatens to drop on his head whenever there's a big snow storm.

$68 a month pays for my cell phone that provides safety for ME - a person living alone and on the road more than 2 hours everyday.

I trailer my horse about 10 - 15 times a year. The truck I have rides so rough when it's empty - it sucks. It's a half-ton with a tow rating of 9300 pounds. I do my best to keep my towed load under 8000 pounds.

Life is all about compromise (give & take) and taking responsibility for our actions. So, for many folks, using a 1/2 ton and towing something that's UNDER the manufacturer's stated limits and within a certain margin for error, is the compromise that we make. Knowing that we have to take responsibility for those actions. It's those that won't accept the responsibility of their risk taking that causes the lawsuits and similar stupidity in the world.

Gabz-

I agree that compromise is important, and that's why i said that for those of you that DON'T need a bigger truck, great. I understand what you are saying and i agree, i just think that you misunderstood what i meant.

for someone like you that pulls 10 - 15 times a year, what you have is fine. But for someone like me that shows 40 out of 52 weekends a year, most of the time traveling by interstate, a bigger truck that can safely pull AND STOP my rig is a must. happy trails to you and your horse.

 "So, IMO, buying a vehicle that allows you a greater safety margin is never a bad idea." 

Exactly!  I just can't understand how there is any argument over this! 

 "and im not sure using a malfuctioning trailer is a good example." 

Where in Rich's post does it state that the trailer was malfunctioning?  A trailer can be in perfect shape and still sway if the conditions are right for it.  A driver can't control wind shear, pot holes,  tractor trailer drag, etc.  Antisway bars help but are no guarantee.  As for only driving 55mph, do that in a 65 - 70mph area and you'll be pushed off the road or even ticketed for not going near the speed limit.  A larger tow vehicle does make a difference.  But you'll find that out when you get your 1 T.

 I towed a car trailer that empty, started swaying over 55mph. 

Most car trailers manuels tell you not to go over 50mph.  Some even have a sticker on the fender that you can read in your rear view mirror. 

The trailer was rented from United Rentals, a national equipment rental yard.  Perfectly working bumper pull trailers sometimes sway, for various reasons, it could be speed, the road, highway traffic, wind, load, etc.  This trailer would sway over 55 mph, like at 56 mph.  The point is, we don't live in a perfect world where everything works perfectly and we operate it perfectly.  So allow yourself some wiggle room when you choose a rig for your trailer. Better to have excess capacity than be at or over your limit everytime.   That's an ideal.  Course we have to do the best we can with what we have.   

I've come across alot of wrecks over the years and most are caused by one or a combination of the following:

  Driver inexperience - Countless times I have seen a wheel drop off the side of the pavement and the first thing they do is stand on the brakes. 

Poor maintenance of equipment - either/both the tow or the pulling vehicle 

Improper loading - an imbalanced load and we'll see you in the ditch

know your limitations, have a safe trip

ah yes, ive been waiting for the "red asphalt" approach.

i think its just more opinons. i was only commenting on how the talk had turned "bloody".

what kind of suv? how long is long? is this person qualified to judge a long stopping distance from the side of the road....i doubt anyone is. may have taken longer/gone a little far into intersection for the horses benifit.

as for the wet road on a hill....ill leave the physics out this time and just say, i guess ive got in made in my tractor trailer at work then.  got all those big wheels and brakes, must be like dropping an anchor when i stop. (sarcasm intended)

unlike that person(and some others) i know what happens when i stop in the rain, the truck stops. this is accomplished with adjusted speed for conditions, and has nothing to do with any vehicles capabilitys. and i mean for crying out loud....a wet road!! just about any piece of crap truck/trailer will lock the wheels in the rain, at that point you have little or no slowing of the rig being acomplished.

most of these examples only display the level of skill/understanding of the indiviual doing the talking.

JMO

I understood the "red Asphalt" comment.  But you disregarded the point about the wet roads.  The OP commented that she would rather have more than minimal stopping power, which is provided by having a larger truck, when something cuts in front of you on a wet road.  Of course you should drive for conditions but unexpected things happen which can cause an accident if not properly equipped.  I know my 450 stops my trailer much better than my 350 did but I still drive defensively.  You'll see a huge difference when you tow your 2H with the 1T.  But I doubt that you'll ever admit it.

i still think youre unclear as to my experiance, you seem to be under the impression ive never hauled with anything other than what i have now.....anyhow i dont doubt it will tow "better(definitions will vary)", it will likely be only half the 1 ton capacity.  what happens when i load the 1 ton up with a big GN? ill be right back where i am now. sure id be "safer" with a lawnmower behind me, and id be "safer" yet with no trailer at all, so would your f450.  "saftey", at the level youre trying to discuss it at, is a moot point. 

heres an example, i ride sportbikes, have done so for years. i follow the trends, specs, races etc.  now i frequently engage in discussions with people about which bike in the open class is best.  all these bikes track times are often seperated by less than tenths of a second. does this matter in the real world? absolutly not. is one better than the other? only in the eye of the beholder.

this is the same discussion we keep having, but like i said i dont have anything better to do. its too hot for me to ride.

"The Red asphalt approach"

Chadsalt: either you seem to miss the point or you're inured to highway accidents. 

It's not for the low fuel mileage a larger truck is used to tow with.  Nor is the higher cost of the heavy truck used to impress the neighbors.  Or the hike from the far corners of the parking lot needed for one's health & fitness because the dually doesn't fit the drive through.  The whole point of under using the truck's tow capacity is avoiding the "red asphalt"

I would expect your attitude toward other drivers on your job and hauling your horses as "Me first, the devil take the rest of ..."

To the lurkers and newbies looking for guidance:

Avoiding "red asphalt" is really what we're talking about.  The other drivers on the road don't care that you're hauling 10,000 pounds of horses and trailer behind you.  I've seen many driver's dive into a space in front of OTR semi's just to cut into a line for the exit.  They are oblivious to the semi's 80,000 pounds mere feet away from crushing their car.  

They won't think about you either, maybe less since you're only a little suv.  The horse trailer is not even in their mind.

They WILL pull out in front of you when you least expect it.  You make your choice here and now.  It'll be too late to change when it happens.  And it will.

well now, if i could be offended, that may have done it. my attitude while driving at work is purely professional.....no middle fingers, no air horn blowing, courteous to the fact the 4 wheeler blocking my wide right turn has no idea theyre doing so. i generlly drive well under the speed limit, legally you can not run the speed limit while pulling a trailer(this is a whole other can of worms.)  and i drive the same way no matter what car, truck, etc i happen to be driving.

when i hear someone talking about how they were "pushed" though an intersection, or almost ran into the back of someone, or i just couldnt get stopped, i can all but guarantee that their experiance is lacking. barring equipment failure, they were simply traveling too fast, their attention wandered, or are not used to compenstating for a trailer behind them.

so until someone sets up a scientific test with cones and mesurements, several size test vehicles loaded to their respective GCWR with horse simulators, etc. and puts an end to this speculation and opinon......... ill just have to say, everyone be carefull. and to the guy who just cut me off,  i knew you were going to do that.

I have things I'd rather do... But I believe guidance to newbie’s important enough to sit here and type.  My wife is patiently waiting while I finish this, for us to go to a dinner party.

I'm a sum of my towing experiences like everybody else.  When I first started towing, I didn't know there was a difference in 1/2, 3/4 1 ton pick-ups.  I bought a 3/4 ton pick-up by the grace of God.  The axle ratio was terrible for fuel mileage but right for towing.  I didn't know one could get other axle ratios.  I didn't know the difference between 1/2 & 3/4 ton trucks.

I have since learned, and not been ashamed to learn further.

As for that tenth of second mentioned earlier.

It made a tremendous difference in several lives about seven years ago.  We were driving home from Mose's Cone Park in North Carolina.  The road back was a two lane road.  Out of the mountains, the road is downhill, (Duh!)  On Sunday, the tourist traffic was pretty heavy.  The truck was a C20 (3/4 ton) pulling a 2 horse steel GN straight load trailer with 2 horses.

The opposite lane was full of vehicles bumper to bumper going to the tourist area.  As we came up to the entrance to the Blue Ridge Parkway (on our right) the traffic was stopped waiting to turn left.  I had as usual, left extra distance between us and the car in front.  Safe and defensive driving you know... I had lots of distance if the traffic suddenly stopped. 

The waiting cars decided my stopping zone was the perfect spot to make their turn.  Two cars made it through; the third car tried, but didn't anticipate the line of cars would stop, putting him stuck in my path.  I can still vividly remember the details. A white Honda Accord, The traffic on the left had started to move, closing off my escape to the left and his reverse escape.  The right was blocked by the cars in the entrance.  There was nothing to do but lay on the horn and stand on the brakes.  I can still see the wide eyes of the passenger in the right rear seat of the Honda.  His eyes and mine were locked together as the Parkway entrance cleared and the Honda moved out of our path.  Several lives and our horses were separated from harm by a tenth of a second and three feet.

I use a dually rated for 22,000 pounds GCVWR to pull a 3 horse gn trailer rated at 9950 pounds.  I am over trucked.  

You make your choices to live with.

im a little unclear as to how being overtrucked had a bearing in that situation.  doesnt sound like you were driving that fast, so it cant be the "little trucks wont stop" theory.  doest look like you performed any death defying slalom manuvers.  please clarify, to me(and it is likely my fault) the moral of the story.

and enjoy your dinner party.

So, Chadsalt, what IS the extent of your horse hauling experiences, i.e. truck/trailer combos and # of years? 

"tow "better(definitions will vary)","

Here's my definition of towing better. With the 1T, which is total overkill with a 2H because even a 3/4T could do the job very nicely, you will have more hauling power, more stability, and more braking power than with your Trailer Blazer.  Your engine and trans will not work nearly as hard, therefore lessening your chance of breakdowns.  Of course, you already know all of this but since you seemed a bit confused... 

I hope the lurkers and newbies pay close attention to what you are saying!  These are my sentiments exactly.  There should be no argument "against" having too much truck.   I'll get blasted for this, but REAL men don't eat quiche, and REAL horse people don't pull trailers with SUV's...no matter what they saw in the movie "The Horse Whisperer". 

ok youre right, im only 12 years old and ive never ever ridden a horse.

im going to take your advice reg, im out too. of course ill be there when the next guy asks if he can pull...........

Geesh, lighten up!.........Life's too short not to have a little fun with some of this serious stuff.......Laugh a little, it'll make you live longer.