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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 391
 
Location: Columbia, KY | Sorry for asking if this has been discussed before - but I'm very confused.  I'd always thought the the only time a person needed a CDL for hauling horses (non commercial) is if the total weight was over 26K lbs. I'm near that but never over.
Now I'm reading for any trailer with a GVW > 10K you'd need a CDL - huh?? I don't haul commercially and live in KY where they don't even require trailers to be registered or licensed. Mine are licensed only b/c I travel all over, which also means I pay personal property tax on my trailers (which puts me in the minority but that's a whole 'nother subject)
Your thoughts? thanks! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 448
Location: Los Angeles, Ca. | From Ky.gov.......D
Operators, Class D*
*This class of license includes passenger cars, station wagons, pickup trucks, utility vehicles, and most panel trucks. This type and class of license is valid for any single motor vehicle, and a trailer, with weights not greater than 26,000 pounds, designed to carry less than 16 passengers (including the driver) and not placarded for the purpose of transporting hazardous materials. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 656
Location: Rayne, LA | ?Here is another
https://www.outdoorsy.com/blog/guide-rv-drivers-licenses-requirements
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 720
| cajunmuleman - 2018-01-07 7:06 AM ?Here is another
https://www.outdoorsy.com/blog/guide-rv-drivers-licenses-requirements
True- but applies to RVs. If you are registered as an RV, you should be exempt. But many horse trailers are not RVs.And- if it is used in a situation where money changes hands, then the RV exemption is usually negated as the officer or judge will consider it commercial.
Edited by horsey1 2018-01-08 8:06 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 720
| You note GVW. But all of the guidelines refer not to GVW, but GVWR, as in RATING. What is the GVWR of your truck & trailer? It is easy to get over 26K with many trucks and trailers today. Even if you never actually weigh anything close. |
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Veteran
Posts: 108
Location: Lawrence KS | I spoke to a Highway patrolman in Kansas about this. She said first of all if you are trailriding for pleasure it is not commercial even if you are hauling 50,000 lbs. You may need a class A but that is not a commercial license ( CDL ).
Beyond that it appears there is some Gray areas such as the RV exemption. |
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Veteran
Posts: 233
Location: Pataskala, Ohio | I am from Ohio and a retired police officer, city cop so I asked a Trooper at Quarter Horse Congress where all the trucks told of their ability to pull greater than 26,001 pounds.
Without sighting passages it is if the rig is Capable of greater than 26,001 pounds or the trailer is Capable of greater than 10,001 pounds then you must have a CDL. So from our law everyone driving a new 1 ton needs a CDL and most new LQ trailer need one as well.
The Trooper gave me the answer I expected “Well it depends.” He looked at me and grinned saying “I never thought of pickups as needing a CDL but looks like they might, depends on who stops them.”
So the short of it is a very deffinate maybe, it could be possible you need a CDL to even drive a new dully let alone allow a horse to see you driving it.
I still drive with my 12,000-13,000 pound trailer and I have no CDL. |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
 
Location: Vermont | This question rates an answer of YMMV...
It depends on so many things...are the police in revenue raising mode...do you have a living quarters that qualifies it as an RV...are you hauling horses other than your own...attending a horseshow where there is cash money awarded, even if its not in the classes you ride in...do you have lettering on your truck or trailer...and on and on... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 656
Location: Rayne, LA | do you have lettering on your truck or trailer.--- Paul why does lettering matter? Can't I call my truck/trailer " Sweet Betsy" and it doesn't matter? Just lettering doesn't mean it is commercial |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | cajunmuleman - 2018-01-10 11:34 PM do you have lettering on your truck or trailer.--- Paul why does lettering matter? Can't I call my truck/trailer " Sweet Betsy" and it doesn't matter? Just lettering doesn't mean it is commercial
If you have something like Southfork Arabians, or Down-on-our-luck Farm, etc...DOT will tend to think you are commercial...:( |
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Expert
Posts: 2953
Location: North Carolina | It's best to look at your driver's license and the vehicle plate of the truck & trailer.
For NC class C : "any non-commercial single vehicle with GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds. A vehicle towing a vehicle has a combined GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds operated by a driver 18 years or older."
The 2018 Chevy dually has a GVWR of 15,500 so 26,000 - 15,500 = 10,500
So any trailer more than 10,500 GVWR needs a class a license in NC. |
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Veteran
Posts: 233
Location: Pataskala, Ohio | hosspuller - 2018-01-12 4:09 AM
It's best to look at your driver's license and the vehicle plate of the truck & trailer.
For NC class C : "any non-commercial single vehicle with GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds. A vehicle towing a vehicle has a combined GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds operated by a driver 18 years or older."
The 2018 Chevy dually has a GVWR of 15,500 so 26,000 - 15,500 = 10,500
So any trailer more than 10,500 GVWR needs a class a license in NC.
That is a trailer that can weigh more than 10,500 lbs max weight not empty. |
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Member
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My trailer is 14,500, without horses. I pull with a 2004 Topkick with a Western Hauler conversion. The truck weighs 12,250, empty and dry. I fully believe that I should be considered an RV since I do not declare any part of my horse hobby as a business on my tax returns, and have never hauled for points or money. That being said, according to the DOT, any trailer over 10,000 lbs requires a CDL, the only exception being an RV. Since the citing officer has the ability to determine my status, without appeal, in the moment I am pulled over, no matter my stance, I could be stranded waiting for a valid CDL to come and get me. With my horses, wife and perhaps a couple of dogs in the vehicle, I am unwilling to let Barney Fife impede my progress toward my destination. It is just easier to get the CDL and maintain the logs(will be using a phone app).
I live in KY, and here I have a 150 mile range that I can pull without restriction. This is not reciprocal across state lines, so I either stay in my own state with my horses, or get a CDL. KY doesn't even require a tag for any livestock trailer. This is reciprocal, but I know that getting a non KY law enforcement official to understand this, can be a monumental task. I now have my trailer plated, even though it is not required. Again, just easier to avoid conflict and delays.
I will be getting my CDL.
I would love to hear other's opinion... |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | Don't put your farm name on the truck or trailer, don't haul for hire and you won't need a CDL. If you are hauling to competitions, well that because a gray area because they could argue the prize money or ribbons furthers your buisness. The bottom line is if you're not operating in COMMERCE, then a CDL is not required. |
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Expert
Posts: 2953
Location: North Carolina | Careful ... We're speaking about two different things. A license is classed and then there is CDL (Commercial)
One has to have the proper class license for the vehicle size / weight.
If in commercial service then a CDL is also required.
Example: In North Carolina... Class A license cost $5 per year. A Commercial Class A license costs $20 per year.
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Veteran
Posts: 168
Location: Minnesota | A CDL in and by itself is not enough if you believe you need one. If you believe your vehicle falls under the commerical class, ie "for hire". For your CDL to be good, you must have a medical exam on file; you need to be in an acholoc / drug testing program; you must have an annual inspection on your equipment; maintenance files on your equipment; a driver's file on yourself and any other drivers of this equipment, with a program to review this file annually; maintain a record of hours of service or if more than 100 miles, a log book; to name a few of the items required. Also, you will need various items such as an IFTA sticker, maybe commerical license plates, subject to audits by any state you enter as well as federal agencies. Oh, and let us not forget the US DOT number and operating authority (MC #). |
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Veteran
Posts: 108
Location: Lawrence KS | ^^^^^ Agreed -
I'm not sure why people are confusing the need for a Class A license and calling it a CDL.
?CDL is for commercial purposes - Class A is for heavier weights. |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | hosspuller - 2018-01-15 4:03 AM Careful ... We're speaking about two different things. A license is classed and then there is CDL (Commercial) One has to have the proper class license for the vehicle size / weight. If in commercial service then a CDL is also required. Example: In North Carolina... Class A license cost $5 per year. A Commercial Class A license costs $20 per year.
Many stated do NOT have classed licenses...but use the CDL for those specific needs |
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Expert
Posts: 2953
Location: North Carolina | PaulChristenson - 2018-01-16 10:35 PM
hosspuller - 2018-01-15 4:03 AM Careful ... We're speaking about two different things. A license is classed and then there is CDL (Commercial) One has to have the proper class license for the vehicle size / weight. If in commercial service then a CDL is also required. Example: In North Carolina... Class A license cost $5 per year. A Commercial Class A license costs $20 per year.
Many stated do NOT have classed licenses...but use the CDL for those specific needs
Which states do NOT have classed non-commercial licenses ?
The Feds are pushing all the states toward a standard license system because of the interstate highway system. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 656
Location: Rayne, LA | I have been told that a LQ horse trailer is considered a RV and I would agree.
This a direct quote from the Louisiana Department of motor vehicles:
Types of driver's licenses:
Class E - personal vehicle license
Class D - chauffeur license
Classes A, B, and C - commercial vehicle license
The only license required for someone operating a recreational vehicle for personal use will be a Class E license. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | Which states do NOT have classed non-commercial licenses ? The Feds are pushing all the states toward a standard license system because of the interstate highway system.
Missouri is one that does not have a non-commercial drivers license for heavier weights. Class F license covers it all if you are non-commercial. Ya, with this NEW interstate highway thing I can see the feds wanting standard licensing systems. |
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New User
Posts: 1
| I am new so hope replying correctly. You have the best way of looking at this CDL issue! VERY good point! WHY RISK it! |
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Veteran
Posts: 183
Location: riverside ca | I think the issue is even if you have a CDL it is now required you need logs, Electronic logs at that now. |
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Veteran
Posts: 145
Location: Harrisburg, OR | From the phone calls I've been receiving, the main concern is that now they're enforcing the commercial part of the licensing. Anyone competing in events that "pay" as little as a ribbon depending on the officer can be considered in furtherance of commercial enterprise. Unfortunately the old standby of "I'm heading trail riding" does not work because the officer will google your name and see if any results pop up. There has also been instances of officers sitting outside of events checking each rigs licensing. I have spoken with multiple agencies in different states including the Feds and the answers vary greatly. For example, technically anyone driving a newer Dodge dually is already over the 26,001 GVWR regardless of whether they are pulling a trailer or not. If the officer thinks you're driving it for commercial purposes he can site you for not having a CDL. |
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Location: Central Arkansas | I hope all the horse related organizations band together to get the law rewritten for the recreational horse owner. I personally feel that the weight placard on the side of the trailer should not be the deciding factor. It should be the actually weight! How many people here actually routinely load their horse trailer to capacity? I usually haul one horse. My trailer curb weigh is only 7500# but since I prefer to have much bigger 8K axles for safety, it has a placard capacity rating on 18.5K! One horse and the stuff needed for one horse. No LQ. That trailer is under 10K# every single time I haul my horse. I would estimate that less than 10% of all horse trailer owners load their trailers to capacity.
The weight laws are written for an industry that makes money all day, everyday. And, makes more money running loaded to capacity. We need laws written specifically for the horse owner that will never load their trailer to capacity. How many of you actually make money with your horse or trailer?
My car has a speedometer that goes up to 140mph. If I am doing 40mph in 30mph zone, they aren't going to ticket me because of what speed my car is capable of, they are going to ticket me for actual speed. Same difference. The common sense point to be made here is.....Weigh me, prove to me that I deserve a ticket for being overweight and I will gladly pay it.
Another thing to also look into, would be the claiming of vehicles on your taxes. I own a layup and quarrantine facility. I don't haul anyones horse, they bring them in and they pick them up. Since my dually also has to haul feed, bedding and supplies, it is set up as 50% personal & 50% business. Obviously, if I am hauling my trailer with my one horse to go ride, I am NOT using it for business at that time. Here is another GRAY area that needs definement. |
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Member
Posts: 17
Location: Central PA | I just received this information sheet which I have attached from a customer so take it for what it is worth but this is what my DOT officer told me as well. You can see it has FMCSA listed on the bottom.
Edited by Treas 2018-02-01 2:11 PM
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Member
Posts: 17
Location: Central PA | Ok so sorry the attachment was too large so I cut the important part out. Attached is the important part of this document. This document was released by the Minnesota State Patrol and FMCSA is listed on it as well. I really wish everyone could see the whole thing but the important stuff is there. If you say yes to any of the 4 you would need to go to number 5.
Edited by Treas 2018-02-01 2:11 PM
Attachments
----------------
 Scan0005.pdf (31KB - 39 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | hosspuller - 2018-01-17 1:27 PM PaulChristenson - 2018-01-16 10:35 PM hosspuller - 2018-01-15 4:03 AM Careful ... We're speaking about two different things. A license is classed and then there is CDL (Commercial) One has to have the proper class license for the vehicle size / weight. If in commercial service then a CDL is also required. Example: In North Carolina... Class A license cost $5 per year. A Commercial Class A license costs $20 per year. Many stated do NOT have classed licenses...but use the CDL for those specific needs Which states do NOT have classed non-commercial licenses ? The Feds are pushing all the states toward a standard license system because of the interstate highway system.
CA for one...:)
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_content_en/dmv/pubs/dl648/dl648pt3
Tx for another...
https://www.dps.texas.gov/DriverLicense/dlClasses.htm
Edited by PaulChristenson 2018-02-01 6:45 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | PaulChristenson - 2018-02-01 9:42 PM hosspuller - 2018-01-17 1:27 PM PaulChristenson - 2018-01-16 10:35 PM hosspuller - 2018-01-15 4:03 AM Careful ... We're speaking about two different things. A license is classed and then there is CDL (Commercial) One has to have the proper class license for the vehicle size / weight. If in commercial service then a CDL is also required. Example: In North Carolina... Class A license cost $5 per year. A Commercial Class A license costs $20 per year. Many stated do NOT have classed licenses...but use the CDL for those specific needs Which states do NOT have classed non-commercial licenses ? The Feds are pushing all the states toward a standard license system because of the interstate highway system. I misread your question... CA and TX DO have non-commercial license classifications
Vermont for one does NOT have classed NON-Commercial licenses
Edited by PaulChristenson 2018-02-01 8:07 PM
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Regular
Posts: 56
Location: Belchertown MA | I for one wish they would they would make it the same for all states just the way it's in the CA link . Take the tests in the vehicle you want to operate PASS get license for that class that would be good in all states. ( I know not everybody would like this because it would force them to learn how to drive thier vehicles ) The states should like it to, more $ for license fees
It sucks having to worry what each states interpretations of current laws are, or each officers are, because they are all different. We should be ok ours is registered as a camper and we only trail ride and camp and everywhere I read RV's are exempt BUT then there's always who's interpreting it |
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Veteran
Posts: 145
Location: Harrisburg, OR | Treas, I have been given the same sheet by customers. It seems the hangup mainly comes with #4 because it really leaves it open to the officer's interpretation. On a side note, I was ticketed hauling an LQ trailer in CA 4 years ago for not having a CDL ($1800+). Explained to the officer that LQ's are considered RV's in Oregon and therefore are exempt. Was cited anyways. Took it to court and won...if you consider spending $900 on an attorney "winning". What I have been telling my customers and would suggest to people reading this thread is register your concerns with your state representatives, FMCSA and anyone else that will listen. There are multipled groups and lobbyists fighting this but the more people that call and complain the more likelihood we have at success. Thad |
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Member
Posts: 17
Location: Central PA | You are correct Thad in that you should win that case and then in turn the state should pay your fees but who the heck are we kidding what state would actually do that. I personally do have my CDL but I am also DOT, IFTA, UCR and FMCSA but that is because I haul these trailers as part of my business half the time and then the other half is me going out with my family and riding our horses on personal time on the weekends so I would not need it for the weekends but during the week it is something I must have. I really do hope that enough people can come together and help get this resolved for the person who is taking their 13 year old to a barrel race or the lady that is going to a horse show on the weekend to have a good time. Not that these people would need a CDL but it makes them worry that they might because of all the chatter out there. Good luck to all and just go have that fun with your horses which is why we are all here anyway. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | akinstrailers - 2018-02-02 9:42 AM Treas, I have been given the same sheet by customers. It seems the hangup mainly comes with #4 because it really leaves it open to the officer's interpretation. On a side note, I was ticketed hauling an LQ trailer in CA 4 years ago for not having a CDL ($1800+). Explained to the officer that LQ's are considered RV's in Oregon and therefore are exempt. Was cited anyways. Took it to court and won...if you consider spending $900 on an attorney "winning". What I have been telling my customers and would suggest to people reading this thread is register your concerns with your state representatives, FMCSA and anyone else that will listen. There are multipled groups and lobbyists fighting this but the more people that call and complain the more likelihood we have at success. Thad
That's when you counter sue for the cost of defending yourself. If enough people started defending, wining, and then sued for to cost incured defending yourself because of the states wrongful charges, this **** would stop. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1871
Location: NY | This is crazy ? I just trail ride and now they wont me to get a cdl ??? |
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Member
Posts: 17
Location: Central PA | CDL is Commercial Drivers License if you are not commercial than you would not need a CDL. You only need a CDL when you are trying to further the outcome of a business you are part of. Its pretty simple to understand as the name itself explains it but so many people and places keep spreading these crazy rumors. As long as you are not in the furtherance of a business then you are not commercial. Good luck!!!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 785
Location: Tenn/Ala. | Treas - 2018-02-12 9:01 AM CDL is Commercial Drivers License if you are not commercial than you would not need a CDL. You only need a CDL when you are trying to further the outcome of a business you are part of. Its pretty simple to understand as the name itself explains it but so many people and places keep spreading these crazy rumors. As long as you are not in the furtherance of a business then you are not commercial. Good luck!!!
That might not necessarily be the case in every state. In TN according to the DOT instruction class I attended, the officer is going to add the GVWR of your truck and trailer together. If it is >26,000# and you cannot claim one of these:
A) The RV exemption- must be certified RV, and have no business ties whatsoever such as being depreciated on your books/taxes.
B) Farm exemption- Are hauling your farm's production directly to market within 150 miles from your farm.
Then he is going to be looking for a Class A license, which is a CDL in TN. I'm not saying that is good, or fair, or whatever. But that is the word with the TN Highway Patrol. But- they generally are not particularly concerned with horse trailers and are more interested in big trucks.
And yes, I personally think this needs to change. AARP manages to get the RV exemption. But to have a horse trailer on a pick up truck in the same class as a 80,000# semi-truck doesn't make sense. In fact, it is possible that the folks with a DRW and/or even a 450 type of truck enjoy more stability than the 3/4T folks with their LQ, but that then may throw them into the >26K group and thus a pain for licensing- thus discouraging the potential safety of a larger truck. But whom will promote this reform? Do we have a lobbying group capable of such? This current system has been in place for decades, nothing has changed. It is just that from time to time awareness brings it to light again. And frankly- as we've mentioned here many times- ask 15 officers what you need, and you get 15 different answers. And I have posed that exact question in several states with the same results.
I am sure I stand subject to correction on possibly many points. This is just what I have been taught and experienced. |
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Expert
Posts: 1871
Location: NY | I am surprized that the trailer company do not get involved, this could stop people from buing trailers |
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