Well, from what I can tell, I'm the 3rd owner and I did not get a bill of sale and cannot remember the guys name that I purchased the horse from...I know real stupid on my part. 

On one hand, I feel real sorry for the original owner...but on the other hand I fairly and innocently purchased this horse.  Not to mention, I've become really attached and spent time and money on him...feeding him twice a day and putting hours into training him to be a much better horse than he was when I purchased him.  It's a real bummer.

You have no rights other than suing the seller, It's called Receiving Stolen Property...

You could offer to buy the horse from the legitimate owner...

But I think you will be disappointed...

Don't get to bent out of shape about it. Be glad and willing to give the horse back if she is the rightful owner. Think of how you would feel if that had happened to you. That is what can happen if you don't buy a horse with papers.

Saddlebredlover, you've received a lot of accurate information in the answers to your question. If the people claiming the horse can prove ownership, you will have to return it. The person you bought it from was not the legal owner, so your sale with him is invalid. Without any papers and not knowing the seller's name, you have no proof, that you are in fact, the new owner.

You are innocent of any wrong doing, but you will pay the price for someone else's greed. As was stated, your only recourse is to try to sue the person from whom you purchased the horse. Depending on in what state you live, a small claims case will vary in a maximum value, usually somewhere between $2000 and $5000. Your only cost to do so, is a filing fee and a fee for the summons to be hand delivered. You do not need a lawyer, and your fees are returned if you win. It will be up to you to prove that you bought the horse from this person, paid the amount you claim, and had no knowledge that it was stolen. if you loose, you forfeit the filing fee.

A friend of mine went through this same process with a car he bought for his son. There wasn't the emotional attachment you have shared, but it was a rough experience, giving up a complete restoration that involved thousands of dollars and countless hours of labour. The original owner didn't have to, and didn't, pay a dime for the improvements.

Best of luck   Gard

     What breed is the horse?  Does that registery require DNA to be on file?  If it does tell the police you want a DNA test and be prepared to pay for it.  If it's not on file, see if you can contact the owners of the sire and dam and run DNA on all 3 horses.  If the person claiming the horse objects I'd be suspicious since your just trying to verify parentage and by that ownership by proving or disproving the papers. 

     My horses are ApHC and I have DNA on file for all of them even thought they only require it on breeding stock.  I figured it would be easier to prove ownership than just having pictures.  Appys can be obvious, but how do you tell one bay/palimino/black/grey or solid horse from the next with out detailed pictures and even then how can you prove they took those pictures while the horse was in their care?

Terri, if the other people have a previous Coggins form, any tattoos, brands or peculiar markings related to this horse will be identified...plus the Vet that did the Coggins may be able to identify the horse...

If this is a valuable horse it may even have been microchipped...

http://www.kernroadvet.com/coggins_information/coggins-worksheet.pdf

If you go to court you might have to provide a bill of sale (you said you did not get one).  Even a signed piece of paper with the price and date does not have to be fancy.  You are more than likely going to chauk this up as experience.  Also be glad that you are the one that found this horse and took it in your care.  You will probably have to give the horse back - the previous owner might become a friend - you already share one thing in common.  If it was me I would be sad but then if the person is not very far away - we might be able to go riding or showing together.  At least they did not find the horse getting ready to be shipped to be slaughtered.   

If it is a solid horse how could the coggins prove anything.  My old mare's coggins papers just say sorrel mare and my old geldings papers say bay QH.  For a year my vet in Tx used a digital camera and took pictures of the horses and that picture was on the coggins, but he said it was to much of a pain and went back to the one where you just drew in the markings. 

Ours are all registered, freezebranded, and microchipped.  The vet has their digital photos that the veterinarian took when getting the coggins.  The brand and microchip numbers are on the coggins and their registration papers.  There are also brand inspection papers.  The worst part of having a horse get stolen is wishing the documentation had been done prior to the horse going missing.  Grade horses that have no markings can still be positively ID'd with brands and chips... best of luck to you in this situation.  You could be compensated for the horse board etc, but the owner also could come back with asking for compensation for the use of the horse... hard to have it both ways.  ...it can all get so sticky, can't it....  hard to guess how a ruling would go in those circumstances......

I know if it was my horse, I'd sure appreciate to get it back. If you had any expenses during the time of keeping this horse, I'd hope the owner would at least help reimburse you for any reasonable expense.  

We had a young dog once that got lost for about three - four weeks before the people that found him noticed our lost ad posted on a board.  They had given him shots, wormed him, treated him for ticks & fleas and feed him.  They fell in love with this dog and he was even sleeping with them in their bed.  It ended up being a couple I knew personally that lived two miles down the road and they said if they hadn't known me, they wouldn't have given him back.  We really appreciated all the good care they had given the dog since it sounded like he was in bad shape when they found him.  We asked them what they thought it cost them while they had the dog and reimbursed them.  I eventually helped them find another lab dog to adopt since I felt bad taking the dog home with me. 

So what is the outcome?

Hello,

Thanks to everyone for all your comments and suggestions.  I've been in contact with the original owner several times and we are currently negotiating a price for me to purchase the papers.  I'm hoping that we can come to an agreement that will benefit us both.  I've tried really hard to handle this with the golden rule in mind.  I would hate for something like this to happen to me.

Thanks!

I'm glad everything is working out for both of you.  You said in the first message "people are going to jail."  You might have to testify in court if they have the person(s) who sold you the horse to begin with.  That would be justice for both of you if he served jail time.  Hopefully you might be able to get your money back.   

Wow that poor owner, I can't begin to imagine the anguish she has been under for 5 months.  I also would not even consider asking the owner to pay if their horse was indeed the stolen one.  You enjoyed the horse for those months obviously, and she did not ask you to care for it.  So I would think it would be very rude to even suggest they pay!  That is like rubbing salt into a wound. 

I am glad you took great care of the horse and I am sure they truly appreciate it.  I would also agree, to chalk it up as a learned experience.  Always buy from reputible people, not dealers, and also get a written receipt/bill of sale. 

I hope if you did ask her to pay for the horses care that you have since called back and apologized!!!!!  Good luck and hope everything works out.  Just be at peace knowing that you were at least an Angel protecting that horse and caring for it.  Good deeds do not go unrewarded, I truly believe that.  

With all due respect, I don't agree with mrs.  Although it is within the owner's rights to NOT pay you anything, most people would be glad to pay for the care of their stolen horse.  After all, they are getting it back and they have not been paying towards it for the last five months.  I have seen this with dogs and most people upon finding their lost dog after a few months reimburse the findee the cost of shots and food.  As far as buying from "reputable" people, frankly, how can you know sometimes?  I bought my horse from a woman who bought it from a dealer who bought it from a farm...at least that is what she told me. Honestly, if the horse had been stolen to begin with I would not have had any way of knowing, as he is a grade horse.  

Well call me a cynic......but I am real curious about this whole deal.  It almost sounds like a scam of some sort.  If there are DNA test results on the papers, I would want to have the horse tested to make bloody sure the papers actually belong to that horse. 

It is very odd how that horse came to be stolen then sold, sold and sold yet again and the alledged true owner managed to telephone the person now in possession of the allegedly stolen horse.  Around here, it would be a deputy sheriff who would show up on your barn door step and ask about the horse.

Anyway, it just seems so totally odd to me that anyone would steal a horse to sell it since the horse market is so depressed and zillions of horses can be obtained for little or no cost.  See the Craigs List thread for example.

Hope everything works out and the poor horse has a permanent home now.

What a minute!!!

The former owner is willing to SELL YOU THE HORSE???

Rose is right...you need to determine exactly what is going on here...

Something is starting to smell...

Have you seen the police reports and talked to the sheriff about this?  If they are willing to sell the papers I'd be doubly sure to have the DNA checked to be sure those papers belong to this horse.  I don't know about where you live, but when I took in my old mare the sheriffs dpt told me if anyone tried to claim her they were responsible for paying for feed and care, up to $10 a day.  It may be different in your case since they are saying she was stolen, but I would definately check.

If they were so desperate to find the horse that they found and contacted you I don't see why they are willing to sell the papers instead of taking the horse back.   If they DO come to get it make sure and tell them to bring the sheriff with them with copies of all the reports so you know it's legal.

I don't think it is fishy.  The horse has been gone for 5 months.  In that time their situation could have changed, as well as purchased another horse in the meantime to replace the horse if they do showing, trail riding, or have a working farm. 

I agree a DNA test IS in order, but I would not even consider asking them to pay since they are alleging the horse was stolen. 

As for getting your contact information, there is the wonderful "word of mouth".  Folks who have horses tend to talk to other horse owners, and that may be how they were able to track down their horse.    If someone stole my horse I sure as heck would be using every avenue I had to find my horse.  So I don't think it is "fishy" at all in either situation.

Mrs The op only has the word of the alleged owner that the horse has been gone for 5 months. I would want to see a police report of the theft dated 5 mths ago before I would believe it. And I don't believe it. That horse was not stolen. This is a scam. A deputy would have been out to recover the horse......not a phone call from an alleged owner. Mrs You may wish to think the best of people who claim to be horse people; but not all people who claim to be horse people really are.

And if a Deputy recovered the allegedly stolen horse there would not be a question of paying for board etc.  Now the alleged owner has telephoned several times negotiating about the papers instead coming to get this horse.

And you really believe this is not a scam?

Since I work for the Sheriffs Dept, I think I know what the process is.  Each dept handles things differently.  If the horse is the alleged stolen horse the owner would have the right to contact the person.  We don't automatically go and recover stolen property until it has been substantiated by physical proof.  Such as DNA test, photographs of the animal, tattoo's, witnesses, etc.  Some folks will circumvent the police procedures and go do things on their own.  Who says the police have been notified.  The party involved could be ecstatic that she found the horse on her own, as well as the horse may be in another departments jurisdiction.  Maybe she got antsy and didn't want to wait for the red tape that is involved in recovering the horse.  Recovering a stolen horse is different from recovering a stolen car.  You can't just go in and pick it back up. 

Maybe I am not the typical law enforcement officer that is jaded.  I try to find positives in a situation.  Am I naive? I don't think so, I do go with my guard up, but I am not about to jump to a conclusion because law enforcement hasn't come knocking on the door. 

As traumatic as it may be to the owner, many depts are understaffed and have to handle the higher priorities first, such as murders, meth labs, Dui's, domestic disputes, assaults, etc. 

I suggest the original poster contact the law enforcement in the area the alleged stolen horse comes from.  As well as contact Debbie Metcalfe from Stolen Horse International.  I am sure she would be of greater assistance in this matter since she deals with this situation frequently.

We don't automatically go and recover stolen property until it has been substantiated by physical proof

And no one will have that positive proof until the police show up with the documents/pictures to verify that it is the correct animal.  I would not release the horse until the police show up and can show WHY they believe the horse that is missing is the one I had.

Most of my family has been in law enforcement and when I brought my mare home they all told me that if someone shows up and tries to claim her NOT to turn her over (give up posession and you could loose your claim) until the people show up with the sheriff/police and they can present positive proof of ownership.  Jurisdiction really doesn't matter in this case since all the 'owners' local pd would have to do is call your local pd and fax over the information/reports and accompany the owner during the recovery.   Recoveries like this happen at pawn shops all the time.    

Come to think of it, we haven't heard from the OP in a while ......  now that has me thinking...lol..  To be honest the whole story was a bit questionable, but as one has said of me, I try to see the good in everyone first.  But after reading the OP's posts it does seem strange.  She says arrests are going to be made...yet the police weren't the ones who notified her, but she KNEW arrests were being made.  Too many holes in the story now that I go over it. 

I hate to think this, but could the OP just fabricating a story to get the board going?  After reading it again, it doesn't make sense.

Lots of discussion.

Agree Verify the horse was reported stolen 5 months ago. Contact the police deptmartment that the theft was first reported to, if they haven't contacted you.

By nice to the previous owner of the stolen horse. Do not accuse them of a scam, especially if you want to purchase the horse legally. Otherwise, they have the right to come and get the horse and not pay you any money for the horse's care. Except, perhaps, there could be some recourse to collect money for board and care from the date you were contacted about having bought stolen property. They can't drag their feet to collect the horse if that is what they want and not expect from this point to reimburse you for care. Care previous to that is not their responsibility as they had no knowledge of where their horse was.

That said, if there is a DNA profile on the horse, definitely have a DNA test done properly to verify. As it is a criminal case, the DNA will have to be collected in a specific manner as to protect both sides of the case. After all, you may be concerned that the people are selling you papers on a horse that is not the one you have. They too would have cause to worry that you might collect the DNA from another horse to try to keep their horse illegally. If I was in their shoes and you said you'd done a DNA test and it didn't match their horse, I'd want a second test done at a Vet clinic with both parties present.

As for the person now being willing to sell the horse. That is not uncommon, though certainly not the rule. If the horse had been bought as a resale project or has been replaced interim. Or as someone else mentioned, financial issues may have occurred since then as well. Also, having gotten to know you, they may be rest assured the horses has found a good home and may find it better to leave said horse with you. And since they had money involved in the horse prior to the theft, it is understanding that they would want some money in the sale of the horse. As for me, I'd have high tailed it with the police in tow and got my missing ponee ASAP.

All in all, it sucks for all those involved, I would be less then thrilled to be thrown into your shoes on this issue, but life is like that sometimes. If nothing else, now you know who the horse is and will have his papers, should negotiations work out. Good luck.

Hi,

For whoever said the OP might be fabricating this story.  I only wish that were true, but this is real and I've already updated the post once.  You just can't make this stuff up.

NOw the plot thickens.  In the beginning, things were very civil.  The lady called.  She was frantically trying to find her horse to ensure the horse was in safe hands.  Of course, I was shocked and believed every word she said.  I want to believe her, but things are not turning out well.  She pointed me to a national stolen horse website and there is a picture of a horse that looks like mine and the details of my purchase of the horse is correct, however it remains to be seen if the horse was indeed stolen from her.  As I said, the lady was very upset and I treated her how I would hope someone would treat me if I were in the same situation.  I offered (hoping to make everyone feel better about the situation) to pay for the papers.  Remember, in the beginning all she wanted was to ensure the horse was safe and she had no intention of recovering the horse.  Now several discussions later she is asking an enormous amount for the papers.  We're not talking about a $30,000 Apendix QH...were talking about a regular trail broke quarter horse with no professional training except for what I have done with him over the last 5 months.  I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.  I want to be nice, but I don't want to be taken advantage of either. 

I told her as nicely as I could, if she did planned on recovering the horse, then she needed to show up with the police with her and show some proof that the horse was stolen from her.  I have talked to my county police department and they advised me to call them if she shows up to take the horse.  That the proof of ownership must be more than the papers.  From the discussions with the alleged owner, the horse has not chip and there is not a brand. 

That's my update.      

I told her as nicely as I could, if she did planned on recovering the horse, then she needed to show up with the police with her and show some proof that the horse was stolen from her.  I have talked to my county police department and they advised me to call them if she shows up to take the horse.  That the proof of ownership must be more than the papers.  From the discussions with the alleged owner, the horse has not chip and there is not a brand.

That was an extremely smart thing to do.  Make sure that if she shows up or continues to contact you to let your PD know.  And don't be afraid to call 911 if she shows up.  If she starts getting 'agressive' you can file a complaint with your PD. 

She pointed me to a national stolen horse website and there is a picture of a horse that looks like mine and the details of my purchase of the horse is correct, however it remains to be seen if the horse was indeed stolen from her.

Try to enlarge the picture of the horse on the web site and see if any markings match up.  Does the contact info on that site match up with the contact info you have from the person that contacted you?   Everyone has access to that information and if someone saw a horse that looks like the picture they are perfectly capable of copying the name and number of the owners and try to claim that the horse you bought is the one in the picture weither it is or not.  How would she know the purchase details?   Did they catch the theif and track down all 3 people that bought her before you?  And since you got no reciept there was no record, how did she find out that YOU bought the mare.

Saddlebredlover,has this person who should be "estatic" ( I know I would be if I were them!) over their stolen horse showing up even been to your place yet to LOOK at their "stolen" horse?

I would have been in the car and driven all night if necessary to see my horse had someone stolen it and I managed to track it down.Like Rose I find it just too odd and "coincidental" that: the owner hasn't tried to see their horse,or at least asked you to send photos,ect  and #2: no law official has even been in contact with you regarding this.I don't think it was a stolen horse,either.I think someone is in the process of DOING some stealing,however,--- YOUR $$$.

You'd better hold onto your pocketbook and start playing hardball,baby,and quit trying so hard to be "nice" on this one.You've been nice enough,I'd say.

BTW there is an interesting article about buying/selling/trading horses on a friend's website.Go to http://www.missourifoxtrottersatoz.com/ and click on "pitfalls" on the right side of the page to read about her experience and what it involved to get her horses back.

This is not some fly by night backyard inexperienced breeder.She has been breeding and raising some of the finest horses for years,so,she too was being "nice" and allowing the benefit of doubt on the front end of her deal.The story has excellent advice to follow in any sale or trade involving a horse.

No,gard,"we" haven't done anything.I know this will probably get SCADS of scoffing,but,I think it is a sign of the times.

Maybe it is just me, but I find the OP is contradicting themselves.  First the owner wants the horse back, police involved, arrests to be made yada yada. 

Then we see the person wants to sell the papers at an exhorbitant price and that the horse was listed on a national stolen horse website....hmmmm

Ok..just in case the OP wants to say otherwise, I took the liberty of copying and pasting word for word what was said.  This is taken from the original post

"...Of course, I'm in love with this horse, but now this person wants her horse back.  Police reports have been filed, people are going to jail and I'm now caught in the cross fire. "  

Ok now on page 2, the OP puts this "...Remember, in the beginning all she wanted was to ensure the horse was safe and she had no intention of recovering the horse.  Now several discussions later she is asking an enormous amount for the papers. " 

You may want to get your story straight.  I thought this didn't sound right, and I still don't.  If this is truly a stolen horse issue, contact Debbie Metcalfe at Stolen Horse International, she is trained, and experienced in mediating, and helping in these situations.

I'd be curious to know at what point the original "owner" of the "stolen" horse contacted the police.And now that she's somehow located the horse (how did that happen?) that she hasn't had the police contact the OP.Or show up with the police to look at the horse to be sure it's "hers" before negotiating prices.

The OP said in the very beginning that "papers had been filed,people were going to jail" ect.When did that all transpire? How could they be going to jail and papers  have been filed if no law enforcement has even spoken with the OP at that point in time? Doesn't it have to be proven that the horse was stolen on such and such date,such and such time,from so and so person,BY so and so person???

Yeah,I wonder what the H is going on,myself.It's like."Look out,now,what???"

Rose, I don't think we are going to hear any updates after I pointed out the discrepancies.  I looked and my message was posted at 6:16pm yesterday, and Saddlebredlover was last on at 7pm'ish.  (shows this on member profile last logon time/date).   This kind of confirms my feeling.  If I was wrong, why didn't this person explain the discrepancies?  I am also going to give Debbie Metcalfe a call about this.  I know Debbie,I try to visit her every chance I get when I go to Expos she is at. She does an awesome job, and is a wonderful lady.  I support NetPosse (SHI).  That is why I recommended Saddlebredlover contact her.  Debbie would know exactly what to do, and would be a great mediator between the two parties.  

If this story is made up, then shame on Saddlebredlover for fabricating this.  If this is NOT made up I will apologize wholeheartedly.  But I would want confirmation from Debbie that this is not fabricated. As hers is the only National/International Stolen horse recovery network in operation that I know of, and SBL did say the horse was posted on a National Stolen Horse site.

Oh my GOd!

I can't believe people would think I've made this up.  I only wish.  Were do I begin.  I've read everyone's post and appreciate the comments.  After reading several comments, I decided to proceed with caution and contacted the investigator yesterday assigned to this case.  The investigator believes the horse was indeed stolen and I believe him.  They do plan on prosecuting the person responsible for the theft.  Because I'm not willing to pay the huge amount the original owner wants for the papers (I understand she paid a lot for the horse several years ago), I’m ready to work with her in the recovery of the horse.  I’m not planning on asking her for any money, she can give me money or not.  She might decide to give me something for my care since I have taken great care of her horse and he is much better because of my training, but that is up to her.

As far as the discrepancies...you all are a tough group and maybe have watched CSI too much.  The owner (as would anyone in this situation) has been indecisive in what she wants to do with the horse.  She has invested money in the horse and although she doesn't want to keep him anymore, she believes that if she were to recover the horse she could resell him...  I'm a long way from her and it would cost a lot of money to pick the horse up.  I'm not simply across town.  The owner also feels sorry for me because I spent money on the horse.  Because I wanted to do what was right, I offered to pay for the papers in the hopes we could both walk away with something; unfortunately my highest amount I’m willing to pay isn’t enough to justify leaving the horse with me. 

I don't know what else to say.  This is a bad deal and the moral...well, don't buy grade horses.  Lesson learned.   

SBL please be kind enough to post the link for where this horse is listed stolen on the "National Stolen Horse" site.  So when I talk to Debbie I know which horse to reference.

 You know what, don't bother.  I contacted Debbie, hopefully she will be in contact with you soon.  I gave her the link to this thread so she can help in the investigation.

This is a bad deal and the moral...well, don't buy grade horses.  Lesson learned.   

There is nothing wrong with buying grade horses.  If anything you should learn to get a reciept, (or write a check, all their bank/deposit info will be printed on the back) and all the paperwork that comes with even a grade horse.  Coggins, demand a health certificate, and depending on where you are, a brand inspection.  Those papers would have had the sellers information on it so you would have someone to go after in a situation like this.   Besides, registeration papers can be faked so they don't really mean much with out the DNA being checked as proof.

I'm a long way from her and it would cost a lot of money to pick the horse up.  I'm not simply across town.

Now that you've decide to let her have the horse, I'd talk to the sheriff about board/care until she picks the horse up.  She knows where the horse is, wants it back and should be responsible for it's upkeep again.  Now that she has claimed it you should no longer be responsible for those things. 

Terri that is great advice.  Wish I said that.

Hi again,

I just talked to the owner.  She's coming to get him this weekend.  I'm not worried about the care and expenses, after all, I've enjoyed a wonderful horse all this time.  I will be sad to see him go though. 

Saddlebredlover

So sorry that all this has happened. Hope they punish the person responsible!!

Hope you can find another one to love and care for!

Not all breed registries require DNA at this time.

SBL, I owe you an apology.  He is a beautiful gelding and I am sure you are heartbroken to let him go.  I love Palominos.  You most certainly will be blessed for caring for him.  Good deeds will get rewarded.  I honestly feel like a heel over this!  I did believe you.  But after some said I was too believing (that the owner could be a scammer) I got to second guessing things.  He was very blessed to be in your presence.    I am assuming that the trainer has been arrested at this point.  If not he will be soon!!!!  Good riddance to him! 

Again I am truly sorry for doubting you!!!  You truly are an Angel for caring for this horse, you were sent to be there for him!

(I wanted this in big and bold for everyone to see, I am truly sorry)

Terri, I can tell you writing a check only gives you so much information about the cash-er.  They don't need to deposit the check at their bank to negotiate the item.  They could just drive to a branch of the bank is drawn from and cash it.  If you are lucky they'll use their real ID when it's cashed and sign a legal name on the back...if you are really lucky the bank will ask for a thumb print on the front which could be searched in a fingerprint database if the need arose.  If the dude is really slimy he'll use a fake ID and cash it at a check cashing store or re-sell the check and the trail goes cold.

Writing a check isn't a sure-fire way to catch anyone!

A nice bill of sale with copies of the sellers ID would have been really nice!

Hi again,

Again thanks to all your comments.  The original owner will be reunited with her horse tomorrow.  Here is the picture of Sundance/Copper.  I'm really going to miss him.  We had a wonderful connection.  It's going to be devastating to give him up.  Natalee

http://www.netposse.com/stolenmissing/SundanceMOoct07.htm

I know you're attached to him and it's going to really be hard on you.I did read on the link a couple of things that stood out to me,the ad said "Tempermental" and that the horse kicked a hole in a trailer while being shown to some prospective buyers.

So,this happened at the CCTR at Emminence? Oh,well---

You will get another one that you will love even more.

Big drought here here also.I sold two long yearlings between chemo at 2k each and I had LOTS of offers of if I can HELP you I can give you a few hundered,see them at  the sale ALL the time now in that price.

I was told that same crap when I had my gelding up for sale.   I got my price for him and he went to a good home.  We sold him because when we moved we went from 10acres to 2 1/2 (land prices here are rediculous!) and didn't have room.  I had a guy offer me $400 for him to "help me clear some space".   I told him "were not THAT crowded".  A guy I work with told me I'd never get my price and was surprised when I did.

This is a completely legitimate and COMMON situation.

The horse that Saddlebredlover is referring to was listed with Stolen Horse International, http://www.netposse.com/, several weeks ago. The legal owner had someone riding this horse for about a month. When she asked for the horse back, he claimed he'd taken the horse to a friend's in another state and would bring him back as soon as he had a chance. She persisted then became frantic realizing that he had no intentions of bringing the horse back. After filing with NetPosse, the owner did a lot of phone calling and tracked her horse between several states, finally locating Saddlebredlover. Because of the pending investigation and charges, I am limited to the details I can give.

Saddlebredlover was unaware the horse was not owned legally by the man she bought him from. This person was NOT the one who originally took the horse. The person that took the horse gave him to this person to settle a debt.

We hope that the legal owner of this horse and Saddlebredlover can work things out. While the horse was considered stolen by authorities and under NetPosse policies, there are reasons the owner is considering allowing Saddlebredlover to keep the horse, but for the price he is worth with papers. The horse was not up for sale at the time he was stolen, but there are circumstances that have occurred over the last six months that might make leaving the horse where he is the best option for all involved. And the horse is also located in another state.

Horse are constantly being stolen in criminal situations and in civil matters. When a horse is located, there are many circumstances to be considered as to how and if the horse can be recovered by the original owner. If there is a contractual agreement such as a boarding contract, lease agreement, sale agreement, etc., most law enforcement agencies will deem it a civil matter, and often the owner has to go to court to prove ownership and damages.

The owner of this horse intends to pursue criminal charges against the person responsible. Hopefully, she will be successful.

When Cheyenne (NC) was stolen and recovered 5 years later through a NetPosse flyer, this pony's owners intended to leave him with his current owner since their child had outgrown him. However, upon visiting Cheyenne, they knew they needed to take him home. He was getting older, and they never wanted to worry about him again. This was a criminal case, but so far no arrests in his theft.

Last year, Halo disappeared in WV after her owner gave her to someone to care for since she was having personal circumstances that affected her ability to care for the mare. There was a signed agreement stating she would be given the mare back if the caregiver needed to get rid of the mare. Instead of offering her back to the owner, the caretaker sold her at auction, then called the owner and claimed she had died. Only about 24 hours after the owner filed the report with NetPosse, Halo was found safe and sound in WV. This was after several leads indicated she had been sold to a killer buyer and shipped to Sugar Creek in Ohio. In fact, she was about to step foot on the trailer when a man bought her from the dealer. He knew she was too good of a horse to have that fate. And she is ... Halo is a well trained, registered Arabian. Because Halo was in a good home, her owner choose to leave her where she was.

There are hundreds more stories on NetPosse.com. Do you know your trainer? Do you know your vet? Do you know your farrier? Do you have a written sales, board or lease agreement?

Look through the stories on Netposse ... you will be amazed at the professionals, friends and family members that disappear with people's horses every single day. Don't think it can't happen to you.

Sincerely,

Angela

You get it! Yes, we receive emails and reports about this exact same situation constantly. Many a friendship has ended over just such an arrangement. One common scenario is for the barn manager/owner or caregiver to say the horse is dead and either buried or hauled off. This is usually a lie! Ask for PROOF! Put in any agreement where you entrust the horse to someone else's care that you need to be contacted if the horse falls ill and that you require paperwork from a vet regarding any care the horse receives, especially any you are asked to pay for. If the horse must be euthanized or dies, you need to note that paperwork must be provided (if you are close enough distance-wise, ask to be informed as soon as horse falls ill and/or before horse is euthanized) from vet putting the horse down and any company disposing of horse.

Also, please remember that paperwork is good, but laws vary from state to state and even with paperwork the owner often has to go to court since possession is still 9/10 of the law. When selling, never let the horse leave the property without (1) payment in full and (2) verification of LEGAL payment. We had one case where the woman was paid with fake money orders. http://www.netposse.com/stolenmissing/EmilyFLstolenAug07.htm

If you do allow the horse to leave on a lease or payment arrangement, be sure to have current pictures of the horse and solid paperwork (may want to check with an attorney on local laws and if it needs to be notarized).

NOTIFY the breed registry as well that this horse is out on lease or purchase agreement and that horse's registry is NOT to be transferred at all or until agreement fulfilled.

Have your horse branded or chipped for identification and proof of ownership! More on identification here: http://www.netposse.com/prevrec/horse_identification.htm

There is also info on how to obtain chips or other security products from our nonprofit.

Another thing to remember if you ship horses ... take pictures of the horse(s) before being transported and being loaded onto the trailer. Ask for pictures during shipping (if a long ride), and definitely when the horse arrived. Good transport companies shouldn't have a problem with this. Give authorization or emergency contact in case something happens during transport. NEVER send any registration papers WITH horse. Send these separately by certified mail.

We have a case where horse was shipping from PA to AZ. Horse fell sick during transport and shipper claims he died "somewhere" enroute. Shipper claims to have buried him in NM at their ranch. NO EVIDENCE of illness or death was ever provided. There was a 2nd horse being shipped to same people. Transporter REFUSED to unload 2nd horse until new owner paid balance for BOTH horses! So is this horse alive or dead? No one knows.

http://www.netposse.com/stolenmissing/HonorBoyMissingMay06.htm

GET REFERENCES for shippers! If something doesn't feel right, check it out!

It is our mission at NetPosse to help protect horses from theft, and to aid in the recovery of missing and stolen horses.

From the case that Saddlebredlover is involved in, you can see that horse theft often involves more than one victim. Do what you can to protect yourself from the heartache on both ends. Educate yourself and be an informed buyer and seller.

Angela

Unfortunately, it is hard enough to get the local police involved and certainly not federal. There seem to be no federal laws regarding theft. Of course, there could be OLD ones on the books (just like it really is still legal in some states to HANG horse thieves), but no one uses them.

This particular horse was in four states during this time period. So it would be nice if it could be federal, but the case usually is handled where the original "transaction" took place. In this situation, the horse originated in Indiana.

Haven't heard from anyone in a little while.  What was the outcome?  Did the lady get her horse back?  Did anyone go to jail?  Was there any justice out of this ordeal?  I hope there was.  Also thanks for all the advice.  I made sure that if anything happens to us.  We will have all the information needed to bring them back.  Longing for warmer days!

I know this was very difficult for you. I promise you did the right thing, though, as hard as it was.

Well, now is the time to get all of your documentation of expenses that you have incurred, for YOUR lawsuit against the person that sold YOU the horse...

Good luck...