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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455
 
Location: Texas | My wife and I tow a 8000 lb (loaded with horses and gear) bumper-pull horse trailer probably 5000 miles per year. We also have a lightweight 8.5' pickup camper that weighs around 1500-1800 lbs (1300 empty plus 200 to 500 in gear)
Our current tow vehicle and every-day vehicle is a '98 Chev K1500, which will obviously not handle both the camper and trailer at the same time. On trips where we want both (less than 50 miles from home), we end up driving two vehicles, but we end up not being able to use the camper as much as we would like on further trips. The '98 gets about 36k miles per year, currently, between towing and every-day use.
If we got a new pickup it would likely be used mostly for the towing/camper and the '98 would be the every-day vehicle, but with 237k on the '98, the new pickup might end up as the every-day vehicle, too, if the '98 ever starts giving trouble.
The new pickup would be a crew cab, long box. It would be used; probably '03 to '05. Right now, I am thinking Chev 2500HD, 6.0 gas. I like the idea of the 6.0 for the empty gas mileage, and I have heard the 8.1s don't really get much better towing gas mileage and the empty mileage is poor. Will I have any trouble with the camper and trailer? Is there a reason I need a 3500 SRW? Price-wise, I don't think I can make the jump to diesel. I don't think 5000 miles per year justifies it, either. I know the towing mileage with the diesel would be better, but what about the empty mileage?
I really don't want this to turn into a GM vs. Ford vs. Dodge debate. When I do the math, I will be very close to the GVWR (9200), GCWR (16,000) for a 2500HD. I may need some help figuring how close I will be to the rear GAWR (6084), though. Am I going down an acceptable path? | |
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Expert
Posts: 2614
 
| They pretty much get the same mileage,diesel wise,towing or empty.Anyway,most diesel owners including us that we've talked to have told us that about their vehicle. Diesel is sky high but when we had a 2500 V8 gas burner it would "take you to the cleaners" so to speak on gas,This was a few yrs ago before gas prices went through the wazoo.Especially when we were towing something with it. I know there will be plenty of fallout and arguments over my opinion here,so,this is the only post I'll make on this one.Just saying what our experience and others with diesels has been.Not a diesel mechanic or engine rebuilder,ect. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1416
Location: sc | I have the 05 Dmax (see sig). It gets just under 14 mpg pulling the trailer, 16 mpg city 20 mpg highway. From your numbers I believe youre going to be close on the rear axle and possibly over on the GVWR (if that matters in your state). My rear axle is 2700# empty, with my 900# tongue (whats yours?), me and the wife it goes to 4000#.....slide in your camper and youre pretty close to the limit. I believe the 3500 srw has a 6500# rear axle, might be enough. Personally I dont like training wheels, but sometimes a dually is necessary. | |
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Regular
Posts: 71
Location: Northern CA | Go with the diesel, you won't be sad that you did. We have two an 02 and an 06 GMC 2500HD. Had a friend who bought the 6.0 gasser and she pulled a travel trailer. It was fine on the flat, but going through the hills, well lets just say the torque wasn't there. Hauling live weight, the Allison transmission will make a huge difference...you might be surprised what you can buy used. The 8.1 gasser should also have the Allison tranny. | |
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Member
Posts: 45
| Hi. We own a 2001 GMC 2500HD with 8.1/Allison which also has an Arrowcraft dually conversion on it. In regards to your questions, at the time we bought this truck we were also leaning towards a diesel, but in our parts of the country, used ones were running about 5-6000 more than a comparable gasser. We know of a few people with the 6.0(gas) and they get maybe couple mpg's better than us empty, but equal or less when pulling(and the 6.0's are working harder w/higher revs). GAWR for the rear can be a misleading number. Ours is 6084lbs(the axle itself, AAM 1150 is rated at around 11,000lbs-although the 6.0's get the smaller AAM 1050 axle) which is the same number as two stock 245/75/16 tires at 3042lbs each. Point being here the manufacturers are going to rate the GAWR at the weakest link,here being the tires. You can upgrade tires to higher payloads, add airbags, but you still won't legally raise those sticker numbers on that door panel(although I heard for some $$$,you might be able to get DMV or DOT to do it-big question mark here). I'm not saying suspension upgrades are not worthwhile, I believe they are, its just will the "law" see it that way if you involved in an "incident". Diesel owners I know are for the most part happy with their unloaded mpg's, but you load them down their mpg's will go down a bit, albeit still better than a gasser. Personally, I think you'll be able to do this setup with a weight distribution hitch, possible airbags/supersprings and possible upgraded load tires----but I also think you'll be asking alot out of the 6.0 to do. If this truck also becomes a daily driver at your stated 36,000 miles a year, the mpg savings of getting a diesel will become apparent in a short time, not to mention a much better resale value if needed to sell/trade later. It's a tough decision, we were there also, but our next truck will be a diesel(maybe that babyMAX that Chevy is suppose to come out with in 08-09 in a half-ton). Good luck. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | I have a 2001 Chevrolet 3500 dually 8.1/Allison that I drive about 10,000 miles a year. If I drove 36,000 miles a year, and was going to haul-pull what you are intending, I would have bought a 2001 Chevrolet 3500 dually Duramax/Allison. Spend a little up front and enjoy the "oiler", big torque and the Allison transmission, you can't go wrong. That 6.0 will get you about 8 mpg loaded and 13-14 empty, compare that with "chad's" numbers and you'll see that the diesel will pay for itself in short order. | |
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Expert
Posts: 2614
| Darn right. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455
Location: Texas | I’ve never really figured out how to (safely) measure the exact tongue weight of a trailer loaded with live horses, but I know it’s heavy with all the tack and water in the nose of the trailer. Let’s say 900 to 1000 lb for the sake of this thread. I’d like to avoid the dually. I like how a SRW tracks on gravel, ice, and snow a lot better. I really find the empty diesel mpg numbers everybody is throwing out there unbelievable (exciting). But I don’t know anybody with a Duramax around here. Everybody has Powerstrokes, and they get 13-14 empty. I live in rural ND and rarely drive ANYWHERE under 70 to 75 mph. But the 3.73 gears would be a plus, over the 4.10s in the gasser. I figured the 6.0 gas would get around 13 mpg empty, based on what my dad’s and brother’s 6.0s get. If I could figure 18 mpg with a diesel, that would be huge. We have found the diesels to be around $5000 more expensive for a comparable mileage used vehicle around here. Fuel costs seem to lean slightly towards the diesel (higher mpg, but higher $/gal), but maintenance costs….What do you all think? Remember, probably 5000 towing miles per year. Resale value would be a big plus for the diesel, but I wouldn’t be likely to upgrade until the resale price is down the toilet, anyway. The reason I am himming and hawing so much is that I don’t have an auto loan right now, and I really don’t want one. But, it is unavoidable at this time if I want a pickup to do the job. A diesel will add another $120 or so to the payment. Not cool. | |
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 Regular
Posts: 51
Location: Labelle, FL | I was in the same situation as you trying to decide if I wanted to spend the extra money on the diesel. I opted to find a private sellar and purchased a couple years older than originally intended to. I bought a 2000 dodge 2500 diesel for $9500 with just over a 100,000 miles on it (Just broke in, only 1 owner too) I also got the maintenance logs for it. For me this was ideal as I did not want to spend the extra money. I was not worried about trade in value though as I usually keep mine till they die. The truck was in awesome condition and I love it. Gave my husband the gasser...lol. Anyhow this worked out for us. Oh and my husband is pissed cause he gets 13 hwy with the gasser, and I am getting 22.5 on highway unloaded and 16 loaded with horses and gear.
Edited by Copper1272 2007-12-18 9:52 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 714
Location: Minnesota | I've done this before. With my 01 Ford 350 V-10 I get 14-15 and up to 18 mpg empty. Pulling a 4H GN with a 6' SW weekender it drops to 9-11. If the deisel gets 15 mpg over 36,000 miles thats 2,400 gallons.Same miles but 12 mpg for the gasser (31 of 36,000 are empty miles) is 3,000 gallons. Using todays local prices of $3.40 for diesel and $2.85 for gas your annual costs are $8,160 and $8,550 respectively. Only you can decide if $400 per year is worth the extra $5-6,000 for the deisel. But definitly get the tonner Good Luck! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455
Location: Texas | Originally written by genebob on 2007-12-18 11:14 AM
With my 01 Ford 350 V-10 I get 14-15 and up to 18 mpg empty.
Okay, let's keep the ficticious numbers out of this discussion. Ha ha. Just giving you a hard time. But your V10 wouldn't get 18 mpg EVER with me driving it AND me calculating the mpg.
genebob, you make a good point with the number crunching there.
If I were to consider a Ford, I think it would have to be a diesel. For gas, is the Ford 5.4 in the same league as the GM 6.0?
Is the consensus that a 3/4 ton is insufficient?
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Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | For gas, is the Ford 5.4 in the same league as the GM 6.0? NO!
Is the consensus that a 3/4 ton is insufficient?
YES! You may want to look at a late model F-350 SRW, their GVWR is in the 11,400# range. Pretty much the same as a GM 3500 dually, but the Ford is a much heavier truck. The F-350 dually is as high as 13,000# but their payload is not much more than the GM dually. Ford upped the GVWR on the trucks to compensate for the heavy weight of the truck itself........... Comprende? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455
Location: Texas | Okay, I have to play devil’s advocate for a little while here, because you are all trying to talk me into something that is even less affordable than what I originally had in mind. Horsepower. What did we all do 10 years ago? The 6.0 gas has more power than any engine that was available back in the day. How can it not be sufficient? For example, my ’91 C2500 spent the first 200k+ miles of its life at almost exactly its 8600 GVWR, and it only has 190 hp. Yes, I realize a 3XX hp diesel with 7XX ft-lbs of torque would be nice, but is it necessary? Weight ratings. If I am right at the GVWR, GCWR, and/or GAWR, that is okay, right? If the acceptable limit was 75% of the GVWR, wouldn’t they just decrease the rating by 25%? Plus, would anybody agree that the manufacturers probably give themselves some breathing room above these numbers? Is it safe to operate a vehicle at the max GVW, GCW, and GAW? While I bring these questions up partially in jest, I don’t think they are totally off the wall. Educate me. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 196
Location: WI | Just so I understand, you are asking if it's really necessary to have one of these: 
To pull one of these: 
Edited to add smileys so's ya'll knows I'm funnin.
Edited by Hank 2007-12-18 3:05 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | You are going to pull a 8000# trailer, along with hauling a 1500-1800# camper in the back of the truck?...........At the same time? Buy what you can afford. Alot of nice 01-07 used 3/4 and 1 ton used trucks out there. Ah, but don't buy any less of a truck than it takes to haul all of that around. Because within a year, you'll wished you had gotten the bigger truck. If the $120.00 a month more in payment won't justify the difference driving a 18mpg diesel -VS- 12mpg gasoline, at 36,000 mile per year, then you best resharpen your pencil.........($120.00, that's one fillup at the pump!) Big top heavy slide in camper with a heavy trailer with live animals moving around, hitched to the bumper......Tail trying to wag the dog. I would much rather have the setup that Hank posted than have it the other way around. Go talk to a new truck salesman, pick any brand and come back and tell us what he says. About 75% of them don't know their a$$ from third base!! Some would tell you you could haul your camper and pull your trailer with a 4 cylinder automatic Toyota Tacoma! You can never be "OVER TRUCKED". I can't tell you what to buy, I've already told you what I did. Now, I've got a bigger trailer and need (want) a bigger truck, myself!!
Edited by retento 2007-12-18 3:29 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 714
Location: Minnesota | Hank, I was rolling out of my chair before I saw the smileys. That was great.jd, just to let you know, I would never tell you to buy a Ford over a Chev. I was a died in the wool General Motors man. The only reasons I bought my Ford in 01' was the leg room in the Ford crew cab was so much better, and when I went into price out a Chev the dealers first two questions were "how much do you owe on your current truck?" and "How do you plan to finance it?" When he couldn't give me a price with the options I wanted, I said screw it and went across the street to the Ford dealer, who treated me like a king. The only thing I really don't like about the Ford is that it does have a rougher ride than the Chevrolet, of which I still have two in my garage.But, I digress. Go with the 3500. Engine size, depending on the conditions and terain, can vary. My brother-in-law has an 02' Chev 3500 Crew cab 6.0. Yesterday he was pulling a wagon with 650 bushels of corn in it. (36,400 lbs tare weight), 8 trips, 9 mile round trip. Then we went on a 200 mile round trip to watch a basketball game and his computer showed 16 mpg. | |
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Member
Posts: 45
| jdzaharia--as per my earlier post, we are/were in similar position as you and have also thought of purchasing a slide-in camper for some of my daughter's weekend shows. We pull an 04 Bison Alumasport 3h bp with an equalizer wdh. We went with a dually for the added stability, night and day difference between srw(our opinion). Yes, your numbers do add up ok (although close on your GVWR and GCWR with 6.0 having lower # than 8.1/Duramax). Have other people hauled at or over their door panel numbers? I'm sure alot more do than they think. Any trip to a big time breed show/speed show or large rv campground will show some undertrucked individuals. However, individuals posting here are stating their opinions of getting a larger/more powerful(diesel) truck speaking from experience. I totally agree with them of it's better to be overtrucked, but we always cannot afford the better or best and settle for what we figure is acceptable. Once again, good luck on your decision. Genebob--just curious is that brother-in-laws 3500 a 6.6(Duramax) instead of stated 6.0(gasser)? I find 16mpg impressive from others I know that own them, and also know the computer figured mpg's are often higher than calculating by hand. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 714
Location: Minnesota | lostinohio- No, it is the 6.0 gasser. I just checked with him and he says he manually computes his mpg because he doesn't trust the computer. He filled today. 16.2 gallons for 254 miles =15.7 mpg. He says that is about what he usually gets on day to day driving. Granted, he doesn't do any jackrabbit starts and coasts in to stop signs and drives like an old fuddy duddy unless he gets a First Responder call. Then look out! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1416
Location: sc | Originally written by genebob on 2007-12-18 11:15 PM
lostinohio- No, it is the 6.0 gasser. I just checked with him and he says he manually computes his mpg because he doesn't trust the computer. He filled today. 16.2 gallons for 254 miles =15.7 mpg. He says that is about what he usually gets on day to day driving. Granted, he doesn't do any jackrabbit starts and coasts in to stop signs and drives like an old fuddy duddy unless he gets a First Responder call. Then look out!
Boy you better tell him not to EVER get rid of that truck, I bet hes got the only 6.0 that can get those numbers........I doubt my Dmax would get those numbers with that "claimed" trip/load.
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Expert
Posts: 1416
Location: sc | Originally written by jdzaharia on 2007-12-18 10:09 AM I’ve never really figured out how to (safely) measure the exact tongue weight of a trailer loaded with live horses, but I know it’s heavy with all the tack and water in the nose of the trailer. Let’s say 900 to 1000 lb for the sake of this thread. I’d like to avoid the dually. I like how a SRW tracks on gravel, ice, and snow a lot better. I really find the empty diesel mpg numbers everybody is throwing out there unbelievable (exciting). But I don’t know anybody with a Duramax around here. Everybody has Powerstrokes, and they get 13-14 empty. I live in rural ND and rarely drive ANYWHERE under 70 to 75 mph. But the 3.73 gears would be a plus, over the 4.10s in the gasser. I figured the 6.0 gas would get around 13 mpg empty, based on what my dad’s and brother’s 6.0s get. If I could figure 18 mpg with a diesel, that would be huge. We have found the diesels to be around $5000 more expensive for a comparable mileage used vehicle around here. Fuel costs seem to lean slightly towards the diesel (higher mpg, but higher $/gal), but maintenance costs….What do you all think? Remember, probably 5000 towing miles per year. Resale value would be a big plus for the diesel, but I wouldn’t be likely to upgrade until the resale price is down the toilet, anyway. The reason I am himming and hawing so much is that I don’t have an auto loan right now, and I really don’t want one. But, it is unavoidable at this time if I want a pickup to do the job. A diesel will add another $120 or so to the payment. Not cool. A Sherline tongue scale will get you the tongue weights. I would say 18 mpg empty at 75 mph is not unreasonable. Really only you can sit down with the numbers and see if they play out for you with the diesel. My Dmax is a "tow only" vehicle, rarely moves without the trailer. It will take FOREVER to recover the extra price of the Dmax, but its what I ended up with. Daily driving the empty mpg I suspect youll come out ahead with the diesel. If you can do your own maint. on a Dmax (dont know about the PS or CTD), it holds ~3 more qts of oil than a gasser, and a $20 fuel filter. No big deal. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455
Location: Texas | Hmm. That Sherline scale is $100 + $15 shipping. Interesting. http://www.discountcampus.com/cgi-bin/webc.exe/store/st_main.html?catid=1102 Thanks everybody for all the advice. All points are well taken. I really appreciate what everybody has to say. I decided I cannot pencil any new pickup for more than 10k miles per year right now. Like I said in my original post, the ’98 K1500 will still get the bulk of the every-day miles, and I cannot trade it off for the new one, because we really need another dependable vehicle, anyway. There should be no reason the K1500 cannot go another 100k before I have to start thinking about doing something with it. So, if I figure fuel alone on a new gas vs. diesel for 5000 miles towing and 5000 miles empty, the diesel wins by $65 per month. Pretend other costs are a wash. A diesel engine seems like it will be a pain in the kiester up here where I will have to watch my fuel source and keep it plugged in for 5 months out of the year. Don’t get me wrong, I really do think that the diesel is the best option for a towing vehicle and I really would like to have one, but I just cannot justify it right now. The other problem is that a used crew cab long box SRW is really hard to find—3/4 ton or 1 ton, alike. And then limit it to the ones with under 100k that haven’t been used as a self-propelled dumpster, and they are really, really hard to find. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455
Location: Texas | I hope I don't get yelled at too bad. I ended up buying this: http://www.horsetrailerworld.com/forum/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid=115 '04 Chev 2500HD, 6.0 gas, 4WD, crew cab, long box. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | You done good, nice Christmas present to yourself!! Got to love that black truck!! Let us know how it does when you get everything loaded and hooked up. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1283
Location: Home of Wild Turkey Whiskey | You have bought more truck than you will ever need based on your original post. Enjoy it. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 196
Location: WI | In my best Borat voice, "Very Nice!" A Chevy that still is nice to look at, as opposed to the new ones. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455
Location: Texas | I can hardly wait for trail riding season around here. But my trailer has never seen a salty road, so I don't want to start now. I am really interested to see how it handles. I know it hauled the Christmas gifts just fine. (Hey, there were a few big ones. Ha ha.)
It's got a few dings in the paint, but with only 44k miles on it, I guess I can live with them.
I need to install a brake controller. I might just steal the Voyager out of my other pickup for now...or maybe I'll just buy a P3 and be done with it.
I need to wire in an electrical circuit for the camper, and install belly bars to tie the camper to.
I wasn't looking for any particular color, but I am happy I ended up with black. That is the third black pickup I own. My dad and two brothers also each have black pickups. Now, I just need to add red pinstripes to match the rest of them.
Originally written by Hank on 2007-12-26 1:13 PM
In my best Borat voice, "Very Nice!"
And in mine, "High Five!"
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 714
Location: Minnesota | Nice truck! I know you will love it. Red pinstripes would be a great accent | |
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Possible new to me towing pickup: 2500HD
