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Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
  
Location: missouri | We have a gorgeous ten year old quarter horse gelding who has always been easy goimg and seemed broke to death.. last night my husband was working with him to take him out on the trail this weekend and he was tuning him up on the bit, backing up, neck-reining, and just checking him out since we have not ridden him for the last few hell hot months... after about a forty five minute ride he ask him to back up and the horse rared up flung his head back and flipped over on my husband .. he has never offered to be rank other than a playful buck once in a while (thanks to some Hancock blood in the background)I am convinced he has some high points and sensitivity in his mouth that caused this.My husband has a hairline fracture of his pelvis and passed some blood... he'll be up and off crutchs in a couple of weeks hopefully...What do ya think the cause is??? |
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Expert
Posts: 2614
| guess this sounds like a dumb question. Does this mean you might not be at Big Creek after all? Glad that he wasn't hurt worse.You know,Dr.Roger COle is an equine dentist,and he isn't too far from you guys,I think. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 378
Location: Nebraska | To much tuning. If you do nothing but tune on him for 45 minutes, he's (the horse) bound to lose control. |
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Veteran
Posts: 294
Location: Fort Worth, Tx | After not being ridden for three months, I wouldn't be suprised at his behaviour. 45 minutes was too much work for an out of shape horse-imagine if you had done no exercise for that long and someone stuck you on the treadmill. Although it could be a physical problem, I doubt that the teeth are responsible, rather, I would look to a sore back from too much, too soon. I would get him checked out, but I think that you just need to start him back slowly....lunging and light riding. Hope your husband will get well soon. |
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Regular
Posts: 67
Location: Iowa | I don't know all the details or background of the horse, but a few months off shouldn;t be a big deal. I go close to 6 months or so not riding my 12 year old gelding and he rides fine on rides. I don't ride through the winter on him because one it's too cold, and two he's my daughter's horse now. She rides hard and is in his mouth WAY too much. Early in the year, we try to do short rides to get all of us in better shape. If he was dead broke as you said, why the tune up? Mine backs when asked no matter how long between rides. And like I said, my daughter doesn't always "ask" to back, she gets too aggressive and impatient. He's by no means a prize show horse, just a pasture horse and pet that gets ridden too infrequently for his own good. I think a "dead broke" horse is a dead broke horse, especially if you only took a few months off. Have you checked the saddle, or did you look to see if he had discomfort somewhere? Maybe there was something with his teeth, but if it's not normal behavior, I wouldn't blame it on not riding him. |
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Expert
Posts: 1989
Location: South Central OK | Every horse rider combo is different, so without knowing more about what you think is a bit of tuning I can't offer an opinion. I've seen a trainer "tune" a horse to the point show officials had to step in and stop the abuse. If the horse hadn't been messed with in a few months just regular riding should have been a tune-up. You can't ride a pasture ornament like you can a horse in daily training, Have his teeth checked out to see if he's got any dental issues. (If he's hard to bridle then I'd most certainly would not skip the dental check-up.) |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 781
Location: La Cygne, KS | If you think it is a dental issue you can check the sensativity of his mouth by putting pressure at several different points along his jaw line on both sides of his mouth with a halter on. If he moves his head quickly or jars it away, you should definately have his teeth looked at. Of course, this will only tell you if he has points on the outside of his teeth. Also look at his tongue for abrasions. Does he drop feed when he eats? And how long since he was last floated? Some horses chewing patterns require more frequent attention for dental work. Hope you find the source of his discomfort whether it be dental or skelatal/muscle related. BTW- was hubby wearing spurs? I've seen quite a few horses rear when asked to back and given a queue with spurs. The horse thinks it has no other option to but to rear. Not an excuse for the behavior, but flexing and bending should be worked on the ground prior to saddle work. Might want to start back on the ground with flexing exercises to alliviate his resistance problem before climbing back in the saddle. Hope hubby is feeling better soon. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 368
Location: Georgia | I know I will get grief from some of the horse people but here is my experience with a well behaved broke horse acting whacked out. I have to take my 19 year old retired heading horse to an equine chiropractor every 2 to 3 months. I bought him when he was 14 and he is well well well (yes I meant to type that 3 times) broke. However, having stated that emphatically ... he has major hip issues as well as other soreness. You can not tell from watching him walk/trot/lope on a line. When he is sore he acts like a untrained whacked out hyped up horse when you try to ride. I get him adjusted and he is his sane sweet self for another 2 to 3 months. The chiropractor is a vet and knows his stuff. He tests my horse using a blunt object running it along certain pressure points. You can see the horse flinch at all of the spots...then the vet checks him after working on him and he does not flinch at all. It is fairly amazing. Some people call this hocus pocus work but for me and my horse it has been a godsend and if it helps my horse I do not really care what other people think. I am so grateful to have found this chiropractor who was recommended to me by me regular vet.
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Expert
Posts: 1723
Location: michigan | I agree with many- 45 minutes is alot of work ( meaning tune up type training) for any horse and it can make some cranky especially if they have been overly schooled too long and/or been on a lay off for a period of time. If it were a teeth issue, my guess is you would have seen it before 45 minutes had elapsed. The chriopractic issue is a good one as I have used the services of a massage therapist and a chriopractor will good results. They do make a difference. I know there are plenty of traditional vets who would disagree an i would have too unitl I used one for a mare that just wouldn't take a left lead. After a hip adjustment, no problem at all. A horse that flips over enough to injure someone is a bad thing ( for both human and horse) when the horse is ridden again, I'd make it a short lesson. Just enough to get something good done ( like a solid feet-on-the-ground backup) then put him away. Horses seem to learn bad things faster than good things, even well broke horses are still learning something. Lets hope this experience doesn't do him any harm. |
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Veteran
Posts: 196
Location: WI | Originally written by farmbabe on 2007-09-24 6:05 PM I agree with many- 45 minutes is alot of work ( meaning tune up type training) for any horse and it can make some cranky especially if they have been overly schooled too long and/or been on a lay off for a period of time. If it were a teeth issue, my guess is you would have seen it before 45 minutes had elapsed. The chriopractic issue is a good one as I have used the services of a massage therapist and a chriopractor will good results. They do make a difference. I know there are plenty of traditional vets who would disagree an i would have too unitl I used one for a mare that just wouldn't take a left lead. After a hip adjustment, no problem at all. A horse that flips over enough to injure someone is a bad thing ( for both human and horse) when the horse is ridden again, I'd make it a short lesson. Just enough to get something good done ( like a solid feet-on-the-ground backup) then put him away. Horses seem to learn bad things faster than good things, even well broke horses are still learning something. Lets hope this experience doesn't do him any harm.  My feelings exactly. |
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Member
Posts: 42
Location: corinth, ms | we have a ten year old walking gelding...who did a similiar thing...been riding him for years....never a problem....one day after riding about 30 min. he stopped and started backing up ....and did not stop til he backed off a bank and flipped over on the rider....young girls have been showing him for several years...thank god it wasn't one of them...the rider was hospitalized and is still having effects from his concussion....we had his teeth checked and his back we tried different saddles and bits...we now have no trust in him.....we have spent several months trying to find the problem....he has gone as long as thirty days without a problem then all the sudden he will do it again....and sometimes does it everytime you get on him....he does not come up but will go backwards no matter whats behind him...we have had him with different trainers and they all end up saying he's gone bad.... |
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Veteran
Posts: 187
Location: KS | We had a 5 year old quarter horse that done almost the same thing. Had been riding great then all of a sudden he started doing that, some days he would do fine but they got fewer between. It ended up he had a brain tumor and had to be put down. Hope this isn't the problem with yours. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 671
Location: THE GREAT NORTHWET, OREGON(THE REAL GODS COUNTRY) | I have a 6 year old appy and she did the same to me only there was a tree to stop us from going over.After a brief tune up with a large limb, we continued on a good trail ride.I wasn't asking her to back or turn,was using a hackamore,so no bit pressure and all she had to do was follow my wifes horse. I usually carry my .357 when I ride and am mindfull of how far it is to a road incase I need to pick my saddle up. The horse might do it once but it will never do it twice. |
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Member
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Location: Central Kentucky | I had this happen to me- years ago. We had bought a 2 yr. old QH gelding. He was fine for the 1st year. At age 3 he decided about 20 minutes of riding was all he was going to do. He would come to a complete stop and refuse to move. Tried everything to make him move, turning him, trying to back he wouldn't budge. I refused to get off, had my daughter bring me a crop and I wore his ass out. He moved. Got him back to the barn area and he started running backwards and scraping me along the fence. Ran backwards into a old tobacco stripping room. I wore his ass out until he moved forward. I rode that gelding that day until well past dark, until he did what he was told, and then left him tied for a few hours. That was 6 years ago, he's never tried it since. I'm not saying I would recommend doing that, but for me I refused to let that horse win and get me off his back. If you can turn your horse with one rein( flex his neck ) this would stop any rearing or bucking. They can't rear with their neck turned, can't buck or run off with their neck turned. That's the first thing I do before I ever get on a horse I don't know. See if they respond to pulling on one side of the reins to get their neck flexed without moving their body- just the neck. If they refuse, you need more ground work. Don't let your horse get away with behavior like that. He learned that day when he gets tired, all he has to do is rear up/fall over and no more 'work'. So basically he was rewarded for rearing and falling. |
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Expert
Posts: 1989
Location: South Central OK | Horses can flip over with their head to one side. They can also bolt and run shoulder first into objects. A horse that has started flipping over is a more serious problem than a horse that "passively" locks up, this horse acted out against a person. Wearing his hide out with a crop won't completely cure this type of horse. Horses that put people in hospitals don't have a home on my property, just like a dog that bites! |
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Veteran
Posts: 294
Location: Fort Worth, Tx | I agree, huntseat...amazing how a horse that is determined to go over, will go over...no matter what. A friend of mine has a permanent limp because of a horse that tried (and succeeded) to run through the pasture fence, it's head cranked around to her knee the entire time. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 671
Location: THE GREAT NORTHWET, OREGON(THE REAL GODS COUNTRY) | Well said |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 378
Location: Nebraska | These horses that flip over backwards or run headon into things, about 95% of the time the rider is at fault. |
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Member
Posts: 21
Location: Central Kentucky | Actually I said "'Rear Up and flip over". And no they can't rear at all with their head to the side. If he is determined to go down, he will go down. My point was this horse has figured out a way to get the rider off, he needs more ground work. I didn't say she should "wear out his hide". I was giving an example of what my horse did, and what I did. If any horse is willing to hurt himself to get someone off their back, obviously he's a dangerous horse. I wouldn't give up all hope on him. Try more groundwork, flexing that neck on the ground and on his back, working in a small area. I would lunge him for awhile before getting on him, and if he tried to rear again, turn that neck. This will stop him from rearing. You can't let the horse get away with this behavior, where the only consequence is- he gets turned back out. That is rewarding him for such behavior. |
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Member
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Location: Central Kentucky | Also that's BS about someone's horse running straight into a fence while their head is "cranked back to the knee" . Impossible! Horses can't bolt/ run with their head flexed to the side of their body. He would be going in a circle and it wouldn't be at a run. Too many people want to be their horses best friend, earn their respect first, be their friend after. You might not like the way I do things, but all of my horses are respectful and hard working. Although through the years they may have tried to slip in moments of rebellion, they know when they do, they will be worked harder. Acting up only means more work, it doesn't mean I get off of them and turn them out. That's my point. To that horse he was rewarded for acting like that. He should have been worked, on the ground or on his back. He wasn't. He learned if I rear up and flip I don't have to work anymore. He will continue to do this when HE'S tired of working. That horse outsmarted the rider and got rewarded for it. |
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Veteran
Posts: 294
Location: Fort Worth, Tx | I assure you that it is quite true..several witnesses. Obviously, the horse wasn't "straight". But running sideways into a fence hurts as much as straight into a fence. |
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Expert
Posts: 1989
Location: South Central OK | Kyhorsechic, maybe you haven't seen this behavior but I assure you it does/can happen. I had a barn sour old pony run with her head cranked around and slip onto her side, got up and kept running while touching my stirrup with her nose. Horses also rear while head to the side...the word "rank" comes to mind. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 316
Location: Illinois | Yup, actually rode a horse a long, long time ago that bolted, broke the curb chain had his head cranked to my knee and he was going straight over rough terrain after a couple of hard stumbles decided it was better to just hang on and let him run himself out. Now a horse that is trained well to bend won't do this.
Need more info about this horse and rider before writing a long post that could be taken wrong. In a nutshell from the info given, it sounds like the horse was pushed harder than he was ready for after a long lay up. Go ahead and rule out a physical issue, even a saddle issue, horses backs change with their fitness level. If everything checks out, I say take him on a few short easy trail rides, ride him like he knows what he should be doing, but don't make it a big training issue. Mostly, smile, breath and have fun, that's what horses are all about. |
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Member
Posts: 42
Location: corinth, ms | I would think long and hard before you take him out again....is it worth the risk....people are severely injured everyday on horses that act up.....there are so many good horses out there... why take the chance on one that has learned how to get you off his back....I agree with not letting them get away with it ...but I have friends that have been permenantly injured and wish now they had just left it to someone else....the one horse I spoke of earlier in this post has injured three different people at three different times...has been rode and shown in between these incidents without problem...but we never know when he might do it again.... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: missouri | Mr.Wonderful is an experienced rider who is very intense. I think he overamped this horse. Now, I have my family and his calling for his head... I will get to the root cause before I choose to destroy a usually good horse, or a sometimes good man. ha |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385
Location: washington | My horse can run forward, as long as he wants to, with his head cranked around to my knee. He is exteremely supple in the neck and athletic...he can go any direction with his head bent around. Fortunately for me, he does not do this any longer, with lots of work and the help of the occasional poke with a spur. But it is possible, absolutely. When he was 3, he ran me into a tree trying to avoid a creek, with his head pulled around to my knee. I realized at that point I would need to think ahead of this horse and anticipate every problem area and what I was going to do about it, well in advance. If there was a place I felt I could not safely win, I did not go there. I chose trails I could always safely win the battle. Once he gained confidence, we ventured out to the questionable trails and then the challenging trails. Now, at 8 years old, he is the best horse I have ever owned... smart and wants to be a good riding partner. We ride endurance and he is awesome, but can still run forward with his head cranked if he wants to. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385
Location: washington | My first guess would be that he was getting frustrated and a little muscle cramped with the backing and tuning... I never realized how much back strength it took a horse to back up, until I worked with my horse as a youngster. It takes alot of muscle strength to back up and spin, etc. If your horse was worked too much after sitting so long, he may have gotten really uncomfortable. If this was the case, the rider should have sensed something was not right. Not trying to assign blame, just offering a possible explanation. |
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ten year old quarter gelding " blew up"??could it be teeth???
