People need to be more responsible when they make a choice to breed. They need to take their blinders off and make a point to actually see what they're breeding.

Absolutely not.  The people that cause the problem wouldn't care about the cost of registering animals...I mean grade horses would still be grade, right?

The idea of allowing the AQHA, to deny registration to horses because they aren't pretty is crazy...the organization was not founded on performance standards (nowhere does it state the animal should move freely and carry themselves well, heck look at some halter horses...lame and useless) like the European breeds where inspection and branding are the norms.  Allowing a panel of folks to choose which animals they'll take and which ones they won't for a registry this size would be a logistical nightmare and a political disaster!

FYI, lots of "junk" horses have world champions in their blood.

Are you seeing lots of unwanted horses where you are? Here the slaughter bill has not affected us like I thought it would. But I think I got caught up in the politics of all this myself. After all living 30 miles from the Ft Worth kill  plant has made me realize a few things. The kill buyers and plants want good healthy horses for meat consumption so the kill buyers would really rather not buy a lame unfit horse if they could buy a good healthy horse that would bring them more money. After years of attending the horse sale every Wednesday night I have come to know a few of the kill buyers and they have a budget and are it in it to make a living for their families, with that being said they are not there to rescue the unwanted horse but to make a dollar. I hope didn't step on any toes but that is a fact. Changing the registry will not do anything to the backyard type of breeder.  I think as with all animals this is just something that is always going to be. Here drought and hay shortages have affected the horse market more than the slaughter bill. Horses brought more this Spring than in years past...

We had a recent case here where a guy had four horses he would not feed that had to be rescued and sad thing was he was about two blocks from the sale barn and he would not even walk them over there. These type folks just don't get it!

Touche' Mr. Conley!  I live in SW Missouri where everyone is a "backyard breeder"... I get pretty disgusted with neighbors who leave horses out to pasture with halters grown into their noses, skinny, not cared for or vetted. I wish we could be more thoughtful about all breeding (including human). In my world Quality exceeds Quantity. And, if I were queen, Pierre would starve to death waiting for his pate'. But unfortunately, you just can't fix stupid here.

Sorry but I don't want the gov to limit horse registrations. I don't want a special board of whoever to make choices for the rest of us. I don't want more "enlighten" folks making decisions for me or anyone else. Not all "backyard" breeders are irresponsible boobs....most are good people breeding good horses. There will always be bad apples out there no matter what we do to "fix" the problem which, BTW, is only made worse when there is no other place for horses that can't be sold for riding ( or showing,breeding etc)Once again,politicans came in and fixed a problem based on emotion,only to create yet another.You want those kinds of idiots in charge of who gets to own or breed a horse?

Breed registries depend on registration and transfer fees to fund themselves. For what purpose would it serve to limit those transactions? None.Plus, the value of a horse increases with registration- they hold value over the grade horses. The problem isn't the number of horses,its what to do with horses that have no marketable value. We had the answer to that. Now we have to depend on the market to limit horse production- if you're breeding mares and can't sell the foals ( or at least make money) most sane people will stop breeding those mares. Even the not sane will limit production. Then there is the need to develope new markets. I don't think this is such a serious problem that needs to be addressed with more bureacratic means.

What would raising the cost of registraion do except charge horse owners more money?( money they need to properly care for their horses) Why punish horse owners? Why is the fact AQHA is making money even relevant?

STOP BREEDING!!   Oh this topic just gets me all worked up!  I know so many people who indiscriminately breed mares, just "because".  It really pisses me off.  I can't even get started!

Or how about the sayin "well if she can't be broke to do "XYZ" I'll just breed her". Or I'll keep him a stallion because he is "XYZ" popular color/pattern at the time, but has poor conformation. Both scenarios have long lasting consequences to the gene pool of quality horses that do not pass on good minds and conformation.

AQHA has not learned from the past problems of other over-bred breeds. I was working for a national Arab magazine back in the early 90s when the Arab market crashed after "living art" was no longer in vogue. Economics of supply and demand will correct the QH market over time.

Ponytammy, I was lead to believe the Arab market crashed due to changes in tax laws.

To name AQHA as needing to do anything is just plain wrong...why not blame the foundation QHA.  I've seen more junk breeding because "well this horse has ______ about 15 lines back."  Breeding for color is just as dumb IMO.

There have been some great points in this thread.  I agree with others that have said that we need to be more selective in our breeding.   People need to be educated and be responsible for the horses that they breed.  I don't think the government should be regulating anything, I think we should be regulating ourselves by using good breeding judgement. 

N2ridin, as usual I agree with you.  How often do you see someone breed a mare, with a bad attitude, because that's all they can do with her?   There are plenty of nice mares out there, why would someone breed one with temperment or physical problems?  Of course, there is no guarantee with any breeding, but if you breed two horses with good conformation and temperment, chances are greater that you will end up with a nice trainable baby.

Also, breeders need to make their babies as marketable as possible with training, even if they don't fit into their program.  For example, my vet *had* a client (he fired them as clients), who bred about 12-13 paint mares each year.  With each foal crop they would get a couple breeding stock paints.   They wouldn't even bother halter breaking these babies, they would just put them out in their pasture and forget about them!  Not many people are going to want to take the time to break a big strong 4 year old that is pretty much wild?  The future for these horses looks bleak compared to those that have been handled and are gentle.  In my opinion, if they aren't going to take care of all the foals born, then perhaps they shouldn't be breeding.

It's unfortunate that the lobbyists with "black beauty syndrome" as my husband calls it had a louder voice than we did in Washington D.C.  Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of slaughter, but I just don't know where all these surplus horses are going to go.  Standing forgotten in a stall or pasture isn't much better than the other alternative. 

I think that a lot of non horse owners, who were in favor of the anti slaughter bill, don't understand the expense in supporting a horse, especially one that can no longer work.  My husband and I support our 29 year old gelding, who's been retired for 10 years.  We've kept him in pasture so I figure we've put out about $ 20,000.00 to support him, that's a lot of money and that's just one horse.  He's gotten to the point where he cannot stay in pasture, so now we are paying full board on him.   I just don't know how people think horse owners and rescue orgainizations will be able to support thousands of unwanted horses.

So called back yard breeders are not producing the 50,000 plus unwanted horses per year.  I do not understand the mentality of the anti slaughter people.  If they do not want to send their horses to slaughter, then fine, don't do it.  Whether I want to slaughter and eat my horse is my business and not the business of someone else. 

The Wild Horse Protection Act is a perfect example of failure to envision the big picture and the logical progression to a very poor conclusion....that is, wild horses being held in corrals for years and years. 

I agree with the slaughter thing.  I don't like it, but I think it was necessary.  I've also suggested a overpopulation plan for the mustangs but everyone thinks I'm nuts. 

   When ever they bring in or come across a herd, geld all the studs/colts.  No foals for a few years with nature taking its toll on the herd will bring down the numbers.   Do this every few years or so until the population is down to where the plains can handle them.   Once the population is down where it needs to be, be selective about the colts you leave whole.

 There would be no need for holding pens or adoptions.  

  Makes sense to me.  

I think this had a lot to do with the anti slaughter movement.  People just don't want to hear that SOMETHING has got to be done. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0310_050310_wildhorses.html

Terri  I also agree with your "gelding" management idea.....as well as Rich on the issue that the horse is not native.....But, why not pack the meat?  If the horse is slaughtered or euthanized, either way it is dead......  And slaughter can be handled humanely..........

Romantic fantasy notions of "do-gooders" make a lot of mess..........

Terri,I never could locate a date on that article,but,my question is: ARE there slaughterhouses still in operation in the US,or AREN'T there?

I have heard both,that they're all closed,and this article says there are 3 in operation??

Terri, Rich and Superfly I think you all hit the nail on the head. 

We were at the horse custion last night and all 3 kill buyers were there. One even had his big 18 wheeler with the big 2 floor stock type rig there There were the horses penned in the back all beat up from trailer ride. Atleast they do unload them for the day while he is here. Then back on the truck they go with more that are bought. I am actually friends with one of them but just can never bring this up with him but I sure wondered where they were going. Then on the way home my 14 year old son said you know mom the slaughter may not be legal but they are trucking them somewhere to slaughter. 

I hate this issue and I would hate for my horses to end up there but we must be realistic and for the industry when these buyers were buying big time at our sales they sure could run the price up on a horse. So everyone was very happy.

This is the only information I have received about the horse slaughter.  There are web sites that will bring you up todate.  I belong to CANTER but not every horse can be adopted.  Sometimes people do not see the big picture - straving animals, not enough money, time or personnel to take care of them.  I live day by day with my paycheck.  I understand what it means to either pay a bill or feed my animals.  I wish I could win the lottery then I might change my mind about things.   I cherish my animals they seem better than my family. 

Horse Slaughter to End in Illinois!!

Gemm, your friend while having good intentions shouldn't have bought horses without having a home already secured...these are the types of situations that make people realize horse slaughter is a necessary evil, whether we want to admit it or not.  Another example of piss poor planning and bad breeding causing animals to pay the price for human stupidity.

Just because a horse has color does not make it a paint, it makes it a pinto.  Just because a horse could make babies doesn't mean it should!  Breed junk and you get junk.

I lived near the Kaufman slaughter plant and it never caused any issues, instead it was a business that took care of a large problem.

I am disgusted to see so many horses being sold as breeding prospects when phenotypically they are of mediocre quality. I'm so sick of hearing he/she is by/out of this and that! Pedigree is warranted but the horse has to be a positive representation of it. What the heck is standing in front of you right now? Do these people ever ask themselves this? Apparently NOT! Do these people research two, three and four generations back to find out the positives and negatives within the pedigree? How on earth can one breed up if you're not educated with this? Why breed?..........I know, even when educated, mother nature isn't always cooperative along with other issues associated with horses that can no longer be used. Slow down on the breeding..........Some people need a major reality check. We need to get back to what the horse truely represents and the major sacrifices they have given to man. They deserve respect..........They've more than earned it. 

A questionair was sent out to 30 of the horse rescue groups and thier response was interesting.

 One question was "How Many Horses Came Thur Your Welfare Group In 2006?" The response was about 1000 horses some as little as 4 some as large as 300.

 Wild Horse rescue had 23 new horses and 33 previously adopted returned.

 Horse Haven of Michigan had 53 horses.

Rerun took in 15

 Spring Creek Horse Rescue took in 36.

 New Beginnings of New York took in 50.

 Another question "How many Horses Have You Taken In 2007? 6months, 737 new cases reported.

New Beginnings of New York 23 with waiting list

Sunkiss Acres 31 new 91 turned down

Wild Horse Rescue 31 new many turned downed.

Lost Acres full 75 turned downed

Bluebonnet Equine in Texas 55 new, full, many turned down

TRF 25 new but pressure to take more comes later when tracks start closing

 I think it is easy to see a trend here. This is not a simple race to the bottom market. It will get worse.

Another question was "What is the Welfare Issues of New Horses?"

Among the answers: owners inability to care for horses, abuse or neglect from legal seizures, old, sick with ongoing health problems, retraining or rehabilatation. CANTER reported many horses requried vet assistance before adopting out.

Many causes, many reasons. It was reported that the numbers are increasing over the past 5-10 years depending on how long these operations have been around.

I bet those paint mares and foals would mow the governors lawn and work 24/7.  Heck, they won't even ask for paid vacations and government retirement!

Gemm, that foster home thing is exactly as you predicted.  It's a way to get horse into care and have someone pay the bills and fall in love, I almost did this with a group active in North Texas but wisely decided against it.  I thought my lawyers were going to have a seizure when I told them about fostering.  I bet some really good cases start with well, I was just keeping this (large dangerous) animal for a friend...

     I've looked into fostering, but for what I'm expected to spend out of pocket with no help it is cheaper for me to go to the auction and buy the horse myself.  At least that way once the horse was healthy if it wouldn't work for my family I could sell it and make up some of the cost. 

     I've got one right now that we got for free and have spent thousands on (or so it seems) that we can never sell.  I don't know anyone else that would take the time, effort and patience it has taken to get this mare to EAT.    I guess it's a good thing shes such a wonderful childs horse.  My 5yr old rides her.

I'd love to be part of the "solution" by fostering (keeping?) a rescue horse or burro. Right now we have a pony that a divorced friend couldn't afford, so we've got him for at least a while, but he's great with the kids. Then the hubby's appy is 33yo and needs lots of care, feed, supplements. If/when they go I'd be in a better position to consider helping out. The time's just not right.

There was a local rescue group who accepted donations of feed at the feed store. It was easy to order an extra bale when I got mine. I think it worked well for them too. Kinda like when you go to PetSmart and add $1 to your overall purchase for pet welfare.

I don't know what is right or wrong on this issue. I could not even begin to imagine ever letting one of my horses goto slaughter. When I thought I was going to lose my 31yo horse to an impaction colic this spring I was even having issues at having a renderer come for him. This horse and I have been through a lot in the last 21 years. Thankfully he made it through.

Breeding is part of the issue, but as long as we have people that treat horses as disposable like everything else in America, the breeders, both good and bad, will keep breeding them like there is no tomorrow. Here's a futurity that states futurity barrel horses must be 5 years old or younger. No minimum age is set. http://www.nlfuturity.com/  If I remember right there was a time where barrel horses had to be a minimum of 5 years old to enter the speed events. But ya know, why feed them that long, just use them until they fall apart, take them to auction and get another youngster to ruin. That way you won't have to cry when the horse you've had for 20 or 30 years passes to the other side as you've detached yourself of any emotional involvement by getting rid of them regularly. Anyway, just because you can teach a horse something at a younger age, doesn't mean they should be doing it. I like the relationships I develop with my horses over the years.

I think they didn't fight the Texas slaughterhouse closings as much as the Illinois one as it has to do with shipping them to Mexico was a viable option for them. They are fighting to keep Cavel open as that increases the expense of shipping to Canada and Mexico greatly from the mid sections of the USA.

 As for picking up a rescue at an auction, it may not be without risk, but can be well worth it sometimes. Though the horse pictured below was supposed to goto a rescue, I really needed a third horse like a hole in the head, but they got wishy washy and well, my friends joke me that he did goto a rescue, that would be me.  

Guy (Freezout) at the auction I bought him at.

This was taken this spring, so he still had some winter fuzz, but it's amazing what you can find at an auction if you give them a chance.

We were able to intercept a horse a day before he was headed to the Ill. slaughter. Turned out to be a great guy and has now gone on to a good new home. Right now we have 2 other rescued geldings that we're working with, putting weight on and seeing if they'll fit into our program. We will probably be taking in at least another 1 or 2 by the end of the year, depending on how the allmighty dollar goes. There are some great horses out there that no one wants. Just a sad situation for such magnificent creatures.

http://www.l5youthranch.org/page/page/4842046.htm

Thanks, I think he's cute too. Not that any horse belongs at an auction (and we're not talking Keeneland here) or should goto slaughter, but Guy definitely did not belong on a slaughter trailer. If you like Thoroughbreds, Fairmount Park in southern Illinois, near St Louis, is having their end of year dispersal auction next weekend, the 29th. Although some of the horses may have some kind of leg issue, the greater portion of the horses in the sale are just not fast enough and they don't want to feed them through the winter. Being OTTB's, they are not for the casual rider, but someone looking for an eventer, jumper or dressage prospect might be happy with what they find there. OK, I can even add trail horse. Not the auction I got my Zen horse at, but he was a trained at Fairmount and I did get him at an auction as well. Note grey ears in my picture to the left, but they can make good trail horses with time and a confident rider.

Well, Texas closed their slaughter houses first, they had two. Granted it was easy enough for them to outsource and send the southern slaughter horses to Mexico, so not a big deal for them. I don't see any of the other lower 48 states saying, Hey build Cavel here! We'd love to have you so the horses don't have to travel to so far to Canada and Mexico to be slaughtered. When is New Mexico planning to open their horse slaughter plant? Yep, it's a lot easier when it's not in your backyard. Perhaps you should lobby your politicians to try to smooze the horse slaughter industry into moving down there. The larger problem most people I know have had with the horse slaughter industry has been the way the horses are treated and cared for between auction and slaughter house. Horses that are sold at auctions that should have been put down before going to an auction. Horses so foundered they can barely walk, horses with broken legs, torn tendons, etc. Those horses should have been euthanized, not taken to an auction to save the owner a few bucks, but keeping the horse in agony for days, a week or more instead. Horses that were healthy enough getting on the slaughter trailer only to have a ribs, legs etc broken by being forced into a trailer with strange horses that kick at them as they enter and ride in the cramped quarters. Not to mention horses put on the top deck of cattle trailers where some of the horses have to crouch as their withers are too high for the trailer, or worst the bottom of the trailer that does not have a level floor. No water or hay provided during the trip, which for some can be a long trip. Which bytheway is counter productive if you are wanting good meat to sell the foreign countries that seem to like taking their chances on our horse meat. Not knowing when the last time the horse was medicated before arriving at the slaughter house. These are the things that have driven the emotions more than the actual slaughter of the horse itself. Of course that hasn't gone away as the horses are still being shipped to Canada and Mexico. Though I believe Canada has more humane laws for slaughter horses heading over their boarder than Mexico. The larger issue for me has been the fact that the slaughter industry has never, ever made an effort to try to identify stolen horses and return them ALIVE to their owners. Never, from all reports from insiders in the industry horses thought to be stolen get put in the front of the line, but they will keep the hides for a while so the owner might identify the horse that way should they show up after the fact. Mighty nice of them, huh? Oh, they'll even offer to pay them what the meat was worth as well. How generous. Nope, if they had made a larger effort of identifying stolen horses and returning them to their owners alive, I think a lot of people would have been more apathetic to the issue. Apparently keeping the meat as cheap as possible outweighed any moral obligations. Anyway, until I hear of another state stepping up to the plate to open a horse slaughter house, I really don't want to hear how it's Illinois fault that they can't get as much for the horse they should probably be having their vet put down.

As for good riding horses and show horses, the prices are pretty much where they've always been as far as I can see. It's only the slaughter horses and untrained horses that seem to have devalued the most at auction. I've not yet seen a significant correlation between slaughter prices and the prices of a good usable horse at auction. The prices of the untrained horses has gone down more due to the costs of hay, feed, etc. going up, then anything to do with the slaughter issue.

And no I can't save them all, but I can take responsibility for the ones that I have chosen to take into my care.

Hay, I have a question, how does the cattle industry feel, or do they feel they can sell more beef overseas if there is less horse meat to sell? You know, get rid of the competition? I only ask as it seems Texas and everyone had less of an issue closing their two plants than the one in Illinois. And yes, I've speculated that a lot of that could be due to their proximity to Mexico and their slaughter plants, but was wondering if perhaps there was an ulterior motive as well?

I'll agree with SOME of your post. 

It has been illegal for quite a while to ship horses in a double decker cattle trailer and it is illegal to ship horses out of country for the purpose of slaughter.  I am sure that there are people that ignore the rules, there always are.  And as far as TX "closing their plants easiest" I have relatives that lived near one of the plants and nothing about it was easy.  People were fighting to keep the plants open if for no other reason than to help people keep their jobs.  I lived in Tx when the plants were closed, I've been in NM for just over a year and if they wanted (and were allowed to do so) to build a slaughter plant here I wouldn't have a problem with it.  The only difference between horse and cattle slaughter is the "pet" status many of us give our horses.    I personally wouldn't eat a horse (or deer/elk or rabbit) unless I was starving but who am I to tell someone else they are wrong and evil for doing it? 

You can rant at me all you want, I don't care.  I don't think the plants should have been closed.

I'm looking for a new horse trailer and as I was looking through the ads for a trailer, I noticed this forum, and as I was looking through the forum, I saw this thread.  I have been searching other websites for a horse trailer and I happened across an article that made some sense in regards to this issue so I thought you might like to know about it.  You can view the article at:

http://www.equestnetwork.com/equest_life_publication_view.php?id=178

There are other interesting articles listed on the home page, as well at:

www.equestnetwork.com

Ummmm, one or two? After all, no one wants government handouts, right? RLOL

We once owned a well-bred foxtrotter gelding that went blind.I had sold his mother to buy him.After the blindness (he was not completely blind,but,unable to focus from the good eye,the other was blind) we tried  to donate him to several handicapped riding facilities in our state.He was ridable in a controlled environment,but it was winter and no takers.We donated him to a foster rescue facility and they still have him,and take excellent care of him there.They depend on donations and care donated from vets,farriers,ect.

This was a horse that we DID not wish to see go to "killers".And because of this facility,he did not go.We were most grateful.

The tax incentive isn't to specifically breed horses, however for her acreage she needs to do something considered agricultural to qualify for agriculture property taxes rather than residential/single resident property taxes. The agricultural taxes being lower.

This woman chose the simplest way for her by breeding horses. I have a friend that rather than breeding horses, leases her back 5 acres to the farmer next to her for planting crops. Thus she can claim agricultural taxes and save money.

No ranting from me, only suggesting that those that really, really want to slaughter horses find a state that would like to accommodate the practice. I've been fairly neutral, though I can say I've never condoned the slaughter of horses. I certainly have been appalled as a caring human being as to how horses are treated on the way to that horrible fate.

Maybe double deckers for horses are supposed to be illegal for horse transport, but that doesn't stop them from being used. There was the controversial roll over of a double decker with horses three years ago in Kentucky that killed 20 some horses.

It seem there was another one in Missouri in December 2006. http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=8295&nID=14

As far as I can see only certain states have passed their own laws prohibiting the use of double decker cattle trailers for horses and only a handful at that.

http://www.equineprotectionnetwork.com/transport/transportindex.htm

And no worries horses are still being shipped to Canada and Mexico for slaughter. They really are.

I don't think raising the registeration fees would do much.  I think it would lead to more horses that don't have their papers sent in or fewer people buying registered horses.  I know that the guy that bought my gelding when I moved has not and said he will not transfer the papers because he doesn't want to pay for a $50 membership fee on top of the transfer fee.

Is it just me or is the time wrong on all the posts?  Its NOT 4am, its 3pm.

Thank you Yvette, you explained it much better than I.  She does receive ag status for having a foal born every other year.  Again I am sure many other states have such incentives.   One of those crazy goverment things, like paying farmers not to grow things!

Raising the fees would not do any good.  It costs $200 to register a TB and yet look how many are foaled each year, and look how many get used up each year.  CANTER can not keep up with them.  Also Michigan's Great Lakes Downs is set to close this year and that will send literally thousands more to auctions as with fuel prices being so high, many of the trainers won't go to Beulah, or Mountaineer, or down south to race.  We are already seeing people setting horses loose in state parks and rural areas.  There was a big thing about it down in Indiana.   You can't give horses away right now.   The market is over saturated.  Thanks to the wonderful pushing of the anti slaughter bill horses are being inhumanely treated in Mexico.  Go visit the slaughter plant down there.  

I think slaughter is a necessary evil, I am not on this planet to judge others who choose to eat horses, just as I would hope others don't judge me for eating beef, poultry or pork.   Shoot...dairy cattle are more inhumanely treated than slaughtered horses.  They have their tails docked so they can't swish at flies (thought is they contaminate the milk when swishing their tails as they are being milked).  Turkeys have their beaks cut off so they don't  peck eachother.  Yet I see everyone sliding up to the table on Thanksgiving to eat their fill.  Yet you folks aren't clamoring over that.

That poor nag down the road, the one the Amish worked so hard and stoved up isn't going to get a quick death now, but will be starved because they won't feed a useless animal.  How humane is that?  Oh by the way...they don't prosecute the Amish because of their religious beliefs. 

The Amish do breed indescriminately yet there is nothing we can do about it.  You also have those breeding their well bred stallion and well bred mare, and you can NOT guarantee good conformation even though the two have great conformation.  There is no guarantee in breeding except for homozygous color traits.  

I have seen myself a 250k stallion bred to a 100k mare, the foal came out roman nosed and has mutton withers, short necked and long coupled. 

Yet I have seen a horse that had conformational issues  bred to a nice stallion and have a drop dead gorgeous foal that went on to win big time. 

What needs to be done is the stallion owners need to be more responsible.  Slaughter does need to be kept, but have the laws enforced and more stringent requirements for slaughter.  The horse has to be examined by a vet and a professional certified trainer, and certified unfit for rehabilitation whether soundness or mentally. 

Before going through the auction ring each horse should be evaluated.  If found unfit for a prosperous life then send it through a separate ring.  If found to have potential put it through and restrict the slaughter folks from bidding on them.