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Location: Auburn, AL | For those of you who were kind enough to offer advice to me earlier, I decided I would take a picture of the hitch and post it because my description wasn't very clear. After you look at the picture of the hitch, my question is this: Should I get two more bolts installed on either side of the ball, or will the four bolts in the corners (attached to welded L-brackets on my frame) be enough for my sooner 3H trailer? Thanks! | |
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Location: Home of Wild Turkey Whiskey | The hitch is fine, there is a concern with the plate type balls. Under the bed there is a space from the bottom of the bed to the top of the frame where the bolt goes through that space should have some spacers to fill up the gap, other wise you will only have the bed supports to support the weight of the trailer and they are not very thick. Also the picture shows a silver colored bolt, that would be a grade 5 probley heavy enough but to be on the safe side you can put some grade 8 bolts in there place, they will be gold, green or black usually. I have hauled with a plate setup like that for a ton of miles when I was younger, never a problem. | |
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Expert
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Location: North Carolina | Originally written by HWBar on 2006-03-14 5:02 AM Also the picture shows a silver colored bolt, that would be a grade 5 probley heavy enough but to be on the safe side you can put some grade 8 bolts in there place, they will be gold, green or black usually. I would disagree with this statement...Color or paint is not standard for hex cap screw strength marking. SAE grade 5 will have three hash marks on the head. Minimum yield strength is 92 kpsi (1/4 to 1 inch sizes) SAE grade 8 will have 6 hash marks on the head. Minimum yield strength is 130 kpsi (1/4 to 1 1/2 inch sizes.) As you can see, the yield strength of a grade 8 bolt is about 41% higher than a grade 5. Don't use bolts marked A307 or without any marking in critical horse trailer applications. These bolts are okay for a blanket rack or such but never for a hitch or axles.
Edited by hosspuller 2006-03-14 8:03 AM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Michigan | I have had this exact same hitch in one of our trucks for 6 years now and other than it being a pain sometimes as far as being in the way of things, it hasn't been a problem. Good strong hitch for sure. | |
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Location: Northern IN. | I don't think that you have to worry about the space between the bottom of the bed and the top of the frame, like HWBar was concerned about. The way I understand it is that your "L" brackets are right up tight to the bottom of the bed, right? It's the same set up that I have on my Reese bed-rail system. I do agree with him on the grade of bolts that are in there now. Make SURE that they are a grade 5 if not a 8. Now back to your original question, I would say yes, do put another bolt in front of and behind the ball, with a heavy duty washer...maybe a home-made 2"x2" plate on the bottom side. My Reese rails have a bolt in each of the 4 crnrs. on each of two rails, so that is eight total, and they still STRONGLY recomend an additional bolt in the middle of each rail, which I always do. Just a tiny bit of flex over enough time can break bolts, welds, or both. Better safe than sorry is my philosphy. My goose-neck hitch is one thing that I don't want to have to worry or think twice about!! Piece of mind for $4.00 worth of hardware...you bet! I'd put in the bolts | |
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Expert
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| Originally written by hobbsel on 2006-03-14 6:36 AM
For those of you who were kind enough to offer advice to me earlier, I decided I would take a picture of the hitch and post it because my description wasn't very clear. After you look at the picture of the hitch, my question is this: Should I get two more bolts installed on either side of the ball, or will the four bolts in the corners (attached to welded L-brackets on my frame) be enough for my sooner 3H trailer? Thanks!
Bolts each side of the ball would only connect the 3/8 or so plate to the thin sheet metal of the truck bed - kinda pointless IMAO.
The bolt on the lower left side of the picture seems to show a shim between the plate and the gulley of the truck bed - this is good, I assume there is one in the top left corner as well.
I don't know why the "grade" and tensile strength of the bolts being used is thought to be an issue. They're in shear for just about every significant force that towing, turning and braking will exert on them. | |
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Location: Home of Wild Turkey Whiskey |  OOOPPPSSS! I didn't see the part about the L-Brackets in that case ignore by part about the space under the bed. As I said before on the the bolts, even grade 5 are plenty strong enough, if you are looking for something to ease your mind, grade 8 may do it. Hosspuller the only reason I used the silver color reference was to simplify the explanation of grade 5 to 8, I knew someone would come back and complicate it.  Also as Reg says a bolt in front of, or back of the ball, would just be through the thin sheetmetal of the bed and would add no strength to the hitch.
Edited by HWBar 2006-03-14 10:15 AM
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Veteran
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Location: Northern IN. | Sorry guys, I respect your opinions, but still disagree... if you pay attention to the crossmembers under your bed you should be able to run your bolts right down through them, and there is no doubt that is gonna give you some more strength. It would basically be like a washer that is the whole width of the bed. I'm sure that the big companies like Reese, and RBW, etc. have done all there homework as far a tinsel strength, steel flex, sheer point p.s.i., etc. if they recomend another bolt, (even if it is just through the sheet metal) there's probabaly enough evidence to support it. I'm sure they don't just want to see more holes through good ole boys (and gals) truck beds. Not to sound like a smart a$$, but like you said in your post about bigger tires on the front axle of that one fellers trailer, Reg, can you give me a good reason not to? | |
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| Originally written by Broken Bit on 2006-03-14 11:53 AM
Sorry guys, I respect your opinions, but still disagree... if you pay attention to the crossmembers under your bed you should be able to run your bolts right down through them, and there is no doubt that is gonna give you some more strength. It would basically be like a washer that is the whole width of the bed. I'm sure that the big companies like Reese, and RBW, etc. have done all there homework as far a tinsel strength, steel flex, sheer point p.s.i., etc. if they recomend another bolt, (even if it is just through the sheet metal) there's probabaly enough evidence to support it. I'm sure they don't just want to see more holes through good ole boys (and gals) truck beds. Not to sound like a smart a$$, but like you said in your post about bigger tires on the front axle of that one fellers trailer, Reg, can you give me a good reason not to?
Ummmm, lessee now...
The plate is there to transmit whateverall forces go between the truck and trailer. The bolts hold it to the frame, though there is some bed sheet metal in the sandwich. The bolts are tightened to a specified torque (hopefully) which determines the holding power between the surfaces of the sandwich. More might be better, as long as they go into something relevant, but hardly useful if they just go through thin sheet metal.
I agree, IF you can find and use the cross members you might get something, but if there is enough holding force at the 4 corners you probably gain nothing. There might be truck warranty issues re drilling the frame, even just the cross members.
I doubt that the torque applied to the bolts is anywhere near enough for the bolt to be elongated to a point approaching it's elastic limit, hence my comment re bolt grades and tensile strength. Well as long as it isn't soft brass or a low strength aluminum alloy (-:
I don't have any numbers to crunch, but if you had the bolt's size, thread profile and torque you could probably get it's holding power from tables. Somehow I suspect that it's tensile strength would be 3 to 5 times that.
Shear shouldn't come into it, the plate just shouldn't move. | |
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Location: Northern IN. | "Shear shouldn't come into it, the plate just shouldn't move."
Reg, you are correct as usual, the plate just shouldn't move, but, if you've ever seen a double decked stock trailer laid over on its side with a load of veal calves still inside, and the goose-neck plate still attached the the neck of the trailer then you would know that the bolts can,and do shear off. I've seen it personaly, not pretty at all! And you're right two more bolts in the plate probably wouldn't have made any difference at all, BUT, wouldn't you like knowing that you did everything in your power to prevent that kind of accident from happening? Like I said earlier, better safe than sorry, but different strokes for different folks, if you like trusting the "numbers" that's cool, but me, I'll do what makes me comfortable. I do love that this forum can get good, healthy discussion, and not have a bunch of immature folks gettin' all riled up when there's opposing opinions. Keep on truckin' | |
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Location: Spanaway,Wa | So if I'm picturing this right there are two brackets attached to the frame on either side into which the bolts go into? What ever happend to having a big thick plate spaning the width of the bed underneath. Then you could put in as many bolts as you want. I'm sure the pictured plate will work fine but it doesn't look nearly as strong as it could be. Sorry I'm just rambleing, CS | |
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Expert
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| Originally written by Broken Bit on 2006-03-14 9:26 PM
"Shear shouldn't come into it, the plate just shouldn't move."
Reg, you are correct as usual, the plate just shouldn't move, but, if you've ever seen a double decked stock trailer laid over on its side with a load of veal calves still inside, and the goose-neck plate still attached the the neck of the trailer then you would know that the bolts can,and do shear off. I've seen it personaly, not pretty at all! And you're right two more bolts in the plate probably wouldn't have made any difference at all, BUT, wouldn't you like knowing that you did everything in your power to prevent that kind of accident from happening? Like I said earlier, better safe than sorry, but different strokes for different folks, if you like trusting the "numbers" that's cool, but me, I'll do what makes me comfortable. I do love that this forum can get good, healthy discussion, and not have a bunch of immature folks gettin' all riled up when there's opposing opinions. Keep on truckin'
I hope I never see something like you just described.
Are you suggesting that insufficient bolts or insufficiently strong bolts were the CAUSE of that accident ?
They'll shear off at SOME point (-:
Rollovers, driving head on into bridge abutments, or collisions with 18 wheelers would probably destroy 4, 6, 8, 12 - however many you care to drill for and put in there. At that point the plate and its bolts are the least important thing. I don't expect my truck or trailer manufacturer to be building bombproof vehicles - that have the weight of tanks.
Under normal driving and towing conditions, including "panic stops" the plate shouldn't move without the addition of extra bolts and they don't need to be any special grade - safety factors included.
When its "all over"... Its ALL OVER !
As in, "Lights out, Good night".
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Veteran
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Location: Northern IN. | No, Reg, The bolts wern't the cause of the crash, I'm just saying that under certain circumstances, there may be enough weight shift to shear bolts, and extra bolts MAY have (just maybee, mind ya') helped keep his trailer in the bed of his truck, upright, and not disconnected, on its side. Think about it, there has to some point where, X number of bolts won't hold it, but X number of bolts will, right? | |
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 Extreme Veteran
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Location: Lone Oak, Tx | I have the exact same ball mount in my truck with the 4 bolts, 2 on either side. I've been hauling my 3 horse trailer like this since it was installed 5 years ago. I would not see you having any problems hauling your trailer.
Just my .02ยข
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Member
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Location: Auburn, AL | Well I checked out the bolt and tried to identify the grade by searching online. The only markings on the bolt are "307A" and from what I have found online it is a grade 2 or even less?!! This bothers me that the trailer & hitches place used that grade bolt for a 3 horse trailer! I called them and they said that is the bolt they use for every trailer, but the man on the phone couldn't tell me what grade it was. Soooo... this afternoon I believe I am going to go to another trailer place and see about getting grade 5 or 8 put in. Anyone who has more experience with this have comments? Thanks so much! | |
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Location: North Carolina | Originally written by hobbsel on 2006-03-16 7:27 AM
Well I checked out the bolt and tried to identify the grade by searching online. The only markings on the bolt are "307A" and from what I have found online it is a grade 2 or even less?!! This bothers me that the trailer & hitches place used that grade bolt for a 3 horse trailer! I called them and they said that is the bolt they use for every trailer, but the man on the phone couldn't tell me what grade it was. Soooo... this afternoon I believe I am going to go to another trailer place and see about getting grade 5 or 8 put in. Anyone who has more experience with this have comments? Thanks so much! "Don't use bolts marked A307 or without any marking in critical horse trailer applications. These bolts are okay for a blanket rack or such but never for a hitch or axles." I said this before and will continue to. You don't have to go to another trailer place. Just go to a hardware store and ask for what-ever grade bolts and NUTS. you want. The hardware on other end of the bolt is graded too. When using the high grade bolts, I always dump the split lock washers if any included. A plain hardened washer with thread locking compound is the better method. The split washers will under extreme pressure, open and break. Then you have a loose fastener. A grade 2 bolt will break before that pressure is reached. | |
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Location: Auburn, AL | Thanks... I know I had read your reply earlier, but I've just been a little overwhelmed by all the comments... whew! Thanks again | |
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Location: Auburn, AL | Just an update... I replaced the bolts and nuts... they were grade 2. I put in grade 8 just to be on the safe side and got a trailer place to double check everything. They said I was good to go. Picked up the trailer today and after an hour or so of changing up the wires to get my breaks to work, I hauled it 4 hours home... rode beautifully. Thanks for everyone's advice... much appreciated! | |
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Location: Auburn, AL | PS- the gooseneck has plenty of clearance over the toolbox for those of you who were part of that discussion. | |
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Installation of gooseneck hitch - pictures
