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 Elite Veteran
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Location: Never miss a good chance to shut up. | Warning!! If you pull a 3-horse trailer with a one ton dually you may be profiled as an illegal and subject to jail.Yes, she was told she could go to jail. Or worse, have her horses abandoned by the roadside till a "qualified" driver could be found.My wife just experienced it first hand. Yes we have video and pictures. Her first sin was not using her turn signal long enough to exit from the highway. She was cited for not having a commercial (cdl) driving license next, (based upon her gvwr being over 26,000) It was not. But she succombed to a police escort to a truck scales. Total weight less than 19,000. Then officer said she was commercial anyway, because she was a barrel racer. A long explanation of the different degrees of barrel racing was needed to convince him it was a sport, and a rather non-profitable one at that. Then said officer noticed farm tag on truck and said horses aren't considered agriculture and she would be cited for illegal use of farm tag.So she started with 5 citations and ended up with only two. Illegal use of farm truck and turn signal infraction. I'm still researching the illegal use of a farm tag to transport my horses from one farm to another.Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. |
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Veteran
Posts: 108
Location: Lawrence KS | WOW - I pull all kinds of trailers all over Kansas - never had any problems - sorry. Where at in Kansas? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 720
Location: Never miss a good chance to shut up. | Olathe, KS I-35 |
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Expert
Posts: 3802
 
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | "horse aren't considered agriculture".... Wonder what this guy is all about...? Dave, was she traveling alone? Sounds like he was trying to show off a little bit... |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 350
Location: Penrose, Colorado | We have a ranch in Oklahoma and Colorado and horse's in both of these states are considered pets, we run farm plates and travel most states and have never had a problem with it but ag plates in OKlahoma are only good for 150 miles form your residence going out of state. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | Sounds like a cop with little dick syndrome! Because of the size of our truck and trailer, I keep a copy of the CDL manual with me with the clear definitions of what qualifies as a commercial vehicle highlighted.
Edited by hornet 2016-04-11 8:36 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 720
Location: Never miss a good chance to shut up. | I'm told it used to be rare to be pulled over, but it has been increasing in many states the past several years. The cop was a State Patrol DOT enforcer. When I asked him for the perfect solution to all of this confusion, he said just go and get your commercial license to be safe then post your DOT number on the side of your truck. Not sure all that is required to load up and take my horses to a vet, a trail ride or the local jackpot. Keeping logs? Stopping at every weigh station? |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | If you plan to travel in other states using the covered farm exemption, be sure that you know what regulations apply in those states:- Wyoming Department of Transportation 307.777.4375- Missouri State Patrol Commercial Vehicle Enforcement 573.526.6128- South Dakota Motor Carrier Headquarters 605.773.4578- Iowa Department of Transportation 800.925.6469- Kansas Transportation Division 785.271.3145 |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: missouri | OMG!!! We are registered as an RV. Legally. We are retired, only using our rig for recreation purposes now... Yikes. I've heard nightmares before, but not quite like this one. Hope everything gets squared away.. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 720
Location: Never miss a good chance to shut up. | We are hiring an attorney! Never fear! I'll keep everyone posted here. The case goes to court May 11. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | Be sure and sue for 10x expenses. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | This part right here has always been my argument why FMCSA and CDL do not apply to individuals operating private vehicles transporting personal property.
(f) Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to—
(1) All school bus operations as defined in § 390.5, except for the provisions of §§ 391.15(e) and (f), 392.80, and 392.82 of this chapter.
(2) Transportation performed by the Federal government, a State, or any political subdivision of a State, or an agency established under a compact between States that has been approved by the Congress of the United States;
(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.3 |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events? Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject. https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.3?guidance
Edited by hornet 2016-04-13 9:51 PM
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Regular
Posts: 56
Location: Belchertown MA | My think they should come up with a Federal RV endorsement that would go on your regular license that would be recognized in all states. It could have a few different classes ie: Motorhome, Motorhome trailer combo, Truck trailer combo, you would take a road test with your class vehicle and receive endorsement if passed. The States would make money on the road tests,we would be legal in all states, and people that shouldn't be driving these vehicles wouldn't be able to until they learned how.I know I would be more than happy to pay $50-$100 to take a road test and not have to worry every time on a trip what different states rules are, or different cops interpretation of the rules.Anyone else think this would be good idea or how we could petition for something like that?As far as getting a CDL I'm not driving commercially and they won't let us take test in pickup trailer combo so I'd have to go to tractor trailer school to get it which seems ridiculous. |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by DaveM on 2016-04-11 12:38 AM
I'm told it used to be rare to be pulled over, but it has been increasing in many states the past several years. The cop was a State Patrol DOT enforcer. When I asked him for the perfect solution to all of this confusion, he said just go and get your commercial license to be safe then post your DOT number on the side of your truck. Not sure all that is required to load up and take my horses to a vet, a trail ride or the local jackpot. Keeping logs? Stopping at every weigh station? Interested to determine they asked for a current Coggins during the stop... |
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Expert
Posts: 1989
Location: South Central OK | Anyone know if they are targeting cattle? I've got a show in Iowa this summer and my parents are taking the cattle with my son up there. I'm not sure that we will go if my parents need CDL's to drive the rig up there. We have choices for the truck: 1. My new 1 ton 2. Their 2012 3/4 ton. Any advice? |
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Expert
Posts: 1989
Location: South Central OK | Sadly, I'll be stuck in Texas at a work training. The thought of missing my son's first Nationals is killing me! |
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Member
Posts: 15
Location: SW OK | I'd prob'ly go with the 3/4 ton. I've heard lots of show cattle people say they've had problems in Iowa. When I was still driving a one ton, I went to a show trailer with 6k axles so I'd still be under 26k. I haven't had a problem, but I don't go north like I used to. I'm in and out of Kansas fairly regular but not on the interstates. I pull trailers in Texas a lot and never had a problem there. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 657
Location: Rayne, LA | I was pulled over in Florida for not pulling over at an agriculture check point. I have a Peterbilt pulling a 41 ft LQ trailer. The trailer was empty ( no animals ) and was told I needed to stop anyway. My son was driving at the time who has a CDL so that was not an issue. I had not considered horses/mules as agriculture but the state of Florida does |
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 Veteran
Posts: 175
Location: Florida | ANY enclosed trailer, or box truck must stop at the Ag check points in Florida, including rental trucks and trailers like UHauls. If it so much as Looks like an animal transport trailer - loaded or empty - you must pull into the station. When you reach the window, just tell them you are empty if you are, and you will move right on through. If you do have horses, they will have you pull off to the side , and you just need to bring your original coggins papers and current (30 day) health certificate with the same horses listed on their coggins into the office to be scanned into their computer.
Many states are now enforcing the 1 ton CDL requirements including Florida.
Per the US DOT, if you are receiving compensation for your events, you also can be responsible for having a DOT number as it's considered a commercial business even though it costs you more than you win. Spent hours on the phone with DOT over this. We ended up getting a email from them listing exceptions to DOT rules that they agree we fall under as we do not show.
As a suggestion, you are ALWAYS going to a 'trail ride'. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | Originally written by TS351 on 2016-04-14 7:45 AM
As far as getting a CDL I'm not driving commercially and they won't let us take test in pickup trailer combo so I'd have to go to tractor trailer school to get it which seems ridiculous.
It's not just a simple as "get your CDL" to avoid the problem. Once you have a CDL then it is a constant expense and up keep to maintain. You have health inspections, log books to maintain, traffic citations quickly escalate the list goes on and on for something that a private individual was never intended to be required.
As for different states recognizing your class of drivers license, that's what the purpose of the Drivers License Compact is, any drivers license issued in one state is honored by all states. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | Correction it the Drivers License Agreement or DLA. Drivers License Compact is for sharing of license points assessment or suspension. |
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Veteran
Posts: 175
Location: Florida | A CDL does not necessarily require log books or a medical certificate. If you are not involved in 'interstate commerce' you are not controlled by the DOT - log books, or medical certificate ( but you need to claim the 'exception' class with your local license bureau to opt out of the medical certificate requirement). The US DOT has told me NOT to renew my medical certificate and to NOT maintain log books, as we only haul our equipment (and non-show horses) with our trucks. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | If you're not involved in "interstate commerce" then you don't need a cdl. |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | http://instrideedition.com/2014/09/are-you-legal-transporting-horse... |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | What gets horse haulers in trouble with DOT is violating the line 390.3(f)(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise; https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.3 Becasue they are going to or coming from a horse show where they won some amount of money...no matter how little...that is the violation that turns on the DOT money generator...and then when they issue the slew of commercial hauling violations...then the bucks roll in to the state... |
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Veteran
Posts: 233
Location: Pataskala, Ohio | I have a LQ 4 horse. It's empty weight is 8420 (I weighed it) and max weight of 14900ish pounds. My truck is a Chevy 2500HD with a Basic Operating Weight of 7000 pounds max "takeoff" weight of 9200 pounds. Just looking at the numbers my rig can weigh around 24,000 pounds. My trailer is greater than 10,000 pounds but is also an RV.I am beginning to move my horses to shows where are my daughter can win prizes. She will win less than $10 per class at most and entry fees are $5, but at the end of the year she may win a jacket or belt buckle. I will be using the 4 horse LQ because that is my only trailer.We may move to a different show, Congress, we live in Central Ohio, but the prizes are greater. I will still be using the LQ trailer, until my 7 year old wins a new trailer Will I need a CDL to move the horses 25 miles from the farm to the fairgrounds?Am I exempt from the CDL rule because of the RV trailer? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 804
Location: Tenn/Ala. | Originally written by Jeepplr on 2016-04-20 5:41 AM
I have a LQ 4 horse. It's empty weight is 8420 (I weighed it ) and max weight of 14900ish pounds. My truck is a Chevy 2500HD with a Basic Operating Weight of 7000 pounds max "takeoff" weight of 9200 pounds. Just looking at the numbers my rig can weigh around 24,000 pounds. My trailer is greater than 10,000 pounds but is also an RV.I am beginning to move my horses to shows where are my daughter can win prizes. She will win less than $10 per class at most and entry fees are $5, but at the end of the year she may win a jacket or belt buckle. I will be using the 4 horse LQ because that is my only trailer.We may move to a different show, Congress, we live in Central Ohio, but the prizes are greater. I will still be using the LQ trailer, until my 7 year old wins a new trailer Will I need a CDL to move the horses 25 miles from the farm to the fairgrounds?Am I exempt from the CDL rule because of the RV trailer?
I can't speak for Ohio, but in Tenn you have a choice to register it as an RV (which replates/renews annually) or as a semi-trailer (permanent plate). The official DOT class (that every business with trucks must go through) will tell you the money isn't the important part. To them, it is
A) Trailer over 10,000#- if yes then Class B CDL.
B) Truck & trailer's GVWR combine to 26,000# or more, then Class A CDL.
The agriculture exemption mentioned frequently here applies to hauling your farm's production, on the first step of distribution. So hauling colts to a sale, you can go 150 miles exempt. To a show- must license.
And to further your defense- we were recently required to become licensed as a Recreational Vehicle Dealer in order to sell trailers with living quarters, as the state of Tenn has decided that they qualify as an RV. So adds to your defense of any citations in Tenn anyway. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1879
Location: NY | sound like the state need money |
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Veteran
Posts: 175
Location: Florida | Not being involved in'interstate commerce' only exempts you from dot numbers and log books, not a CDL. CDLs are still required by weight and vehicle classifications, but you can get an exception from commercial medical card requirements by not being involved in 'interstate commerce'. The hole in the system is the acceptance of show winnings causing you to be a commercial - for profit (earnings) enterprise, even though the earnings are far less than the cost. As explained by a US DOT agent, even acceptance of a ribbon as an award is considered as earnings as it increases the value of your horse. He implied the laws need to be modified to exempt the casual event participant. What is interesting, those towing cars to shows, are not being targeted (???) |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | Only if your home state requires a CDL for the weight class. MO doesn't, there is an exemption stated in the CDL manual regarding Personal Use.
Edited by hornet 2016-04-24 8:11 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 657
Location: Rayne, LA | Warning!! If you pull a 3-horse trailer with a one ton dually you may be profiled as an illegal and subject to jail.Yes, she was told she could go to jail. Or worse, have her horses abandoned by the roadside till a "qualified" driver could be found.My wife just experienced it first hand. Yes we have video and pictures. Her first sin was not using her turn signal long enough to exit from the highway------------------- What is the proper distance to put your turn signal on? |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by PDGx on 2016-04-24 6:20 PM
Not being involved in'interstate commerce' only exempts you from dot numbers and log books, not a CDL. CDLs are still required by weight and vehicle classifications, but you can get an exception from commercial medical card requirements by not being involved in 'interstate commerce'. The hole in the system is the acceptance of show winnings causing you to be a commercial - for profit (earnings) enterprise, even though the earnings are far less than the cost. As explained by a US DOT agent, even acceptance of a ribbon as an award is considered as earnings as it increases the value of your horse. He implied the laws need to be modified to exempt the casual event participant. What is interesting, those towing cars to shows, are not being targeted (???) Hornet pointed out in the CDL thread...And the FMCSA answer to that is provided on their website.Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.3?guidance |
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Expert
Posts: 1989
Location: South Central OK | Got my answer, kinda, I do need a CDL due to the weight of the trailer being over the 10,001 pound number. The state of OK (at this time) is not enforcing CDL requirements on anything w/ farm tags. Once I leave the state all bets are off, so I'll be getting the correct CDL after I can find some time to get to that office during daylight! She gave me a quick check method on this topic (how officers are checking, around here) take your door jam sticker and add the GVWR of the truck and the GVWR of the trailer. If the sum of those GVWR is over 26,001 then you need a CDL, the exact type of CDL depends on the weight breakdown and type of rig. The officer confirmed that if your truck + trailer classifies as needing a CDL then you can take the driving test with your truck + trailer. You will not have to go to truck driving school or rent a semi for the test. If you have questions please call your state DOT, and the states in which you'll be driving.) |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Missouri | That's one reason I did not put farm tags on my truck. In Missouri farm tags are A LOT cheaper then regular tags for the same weight rating. However my research revealed that by having farm tags on the truck and then leaving the state of Missouri I would be attesting to interstate commerce. The registration savings is not worth the cost of being caught. |
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GRANDMA gets threatened with jail in Kansas
