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New User
Posts: 2
| Hello all I'm new here and I have some questions about the commercial designation with the DOT. I am going to apologize in advance because this is going to be long. First off, as I understand it, I won't need a CDL unless my truck, trailer, and everything loaded up is over 26,001 pounds. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Second, I'm confused about the commercial truck plates, DOT numbers and FMCSR regulations. I am going to be traveling across the country (CT to WA, resident of WA) here in about 6 weeks or so and I want to make sure I'm following all the laws but they're very confusing to me.
I have a 2008 3/4 ton RAM 6.7L Diesel and will be acquiring a 3H GN trailer here in the very near future. I would prefer an aluminum trailer but funds may dictate that I purchase a steel or a steel framed aluminum. I will only be hauling my three horses and I'm not hauling them for show or anything. I'm relocating.
In any case with what I have listed above could you all help me decide what I'll need. I'm pretty sure I won't need a CDL, but do I need a DOT number, commercial plates and do I need to follow the FMCSR's? If so where would I find a list of everything I need for the FMCSR's (triangles, what needs to be in logbook etc.)?
Thanks in advance! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
 
Location: Ottawa, Illinois 61350 | I just had a conversation with a DOT officer a couple of weeks ago, and from what I got from him, if your crossing state lines with a non CDL rig (or CDL) , and hauling to a show or sale; or hauling a clients horse(s) if a trainer, etc. ; you will need DOT numbers. If your strictly hauling your own horses for the purpose of relocating, I think a properly licensed truck and trailer (and possible safety inspection stickers if your state requires them) is all you will need. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 350
Location: Penrose, Colorado | For what it is worth in Oklahoma if you have farm or ag plates on your truck you have a 150 radius of home and with private plates you can go about anywhere you want as long as you are hauling your own livestock with out a cdl but if you have commerical plates you need the works. I see a lot of trucks with NOT FOR HIRE on them and I do not know if this helps or not. I have also been told to get a dot medical card and that goes along way if you are stopped. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 188
Location: Ingalls, Ks | Here's my understanding of the law as you ask it. Take the GVWR of your pickup on door sticker. Take the GVWR of your trailer from the frame sticker. Add them together, if less than 26,000 you should be fine. If over then you need CDL. There are some other rules but that is the easier condensed version. If you end up over 26k, which I doubt you will, then yes you need a CDL. My friend at the DOT tells me not to mess with the DOT number unless you want to litter your trailer with everything you and anyone you have hauled has won. Then you become commercial! Our story is and always will be that we are going trail riding. If asked why one person is hauling 6 horses, well the family is coming in a different vehicle. This is still recreation in my mind and most officers will be fine with that. | |
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Location: KY | It is not the weight, it is the purpose. That is why all those huge rv bus drivers do not need cdls. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by kooner on 2012-02-14 10:00 AM
For what it is worth in Oklahoma if you have farm or ag plates on your truck you have a 150 radius of home and with private plates you can go about anywhere you want as long as you are hauling your own livestock with out a cdl but if you have commerical plates you need the works. I see a lot of trucks with NOT FOR HIRE on them and I do not know if this helps or not. I have also been told to get a dot medical card and that goes along way if you are stopped. NOT FOR HIRE will guarantee a safety stop by a DOT officer in many states especially the mid-east and mid-west... | |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by 301duster on 2012-02-14 11:48 AM
Here's my understanding of the law as you ask it. Take the GVWR of your pickup on door sticker. Take the GVWR of your trailer from the frame sticker. Add them together, if less than 26,000 you should be fine. If over then you need CDL. There are some other rules but that is the easier condensed version. If you end up over 26k, which I doubt you will, then yes you need a CDL. My friend at the DOT tells me not to mess with the DOT number unless you want to litter your trailer with everything you and anyone you have hauled has won. Then you become commercial! Our story is and always will be that we are going trail riding. If asked why one person is hauling 6 horses, well the family is coming in a different vehicle. This is still recreation in my mind and most officers will be fine with that. That may work ONCE...but after you are stopped by a DOT man...they normally type in your data...JUST IN CASE they meet you AGAIN... | |
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Veteran
Posts: 188
Location: Ingalls, Ks | Yes, I forgot to point out the fact you can get a Non CDL Class A license. I know of a couple of people that have done this. I still say it's determined by weight and combination weight. You can get many differing opinions about this. My opinion came from a combination of 5 highway patrol and DOT officers. Once again it was their interpretation of my situation and that of my 19 year old daughter that pulls a 35,000# rig, on an almost weekly basis, with an age restricted Class A CDL. We went with CDL just in case the laws stiffen up and we are considered truly commercial in the future. | |
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Regular
Posts: 83
| I believe the "C" in CDL says it all. If you are using your vehicle for commerce ($) you have to adhere to the DOT laws. If not, you are recreational regardless of weight. Unless you drive something with airbrakes, then you must have CDL with air brake endorsement. Having been through numberous DOT questions and answers sessions through our local business' contractor organizations, I can tell you many things vary from state to state. If you need a CDL because of commerce there are many more things than a CDL you will need. If one of our employees crosses state line with a vehicle with over 10,000 # GVWR they might not need a CDL, but do need a medical card, DOT #, log book, drug screening, etc. My local DOT officer said many restrictions vary from state to state, especially which laws are actually enforced. The "NOT FOR HIRE" thing is an unknown factor here in Iowa. Doesn't matter if you are making the "commerce" for something from yourself or hiring out to haul for someone else.
I think the officer put it in this perspective best. I can use one of my company trucks with DOT letters and company name on the side, be towing a company trailer with a combined weigth over 26,000#, and if I am using the unit for personal "non-commerce" use (hauling a load of hay home for my trail riding horses) I do not fall under any commercial hauling guidelines. | |
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Location: Colorado | If you aren't hauling "for furtherance of commercial enterprise", you don't need or want a DOT# per the Feds. The following is from the US DOT web site- it's their own interpretation of their rules. Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the ‘‘occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise’’ apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events? Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject. Here is the link to the page: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=390.3&guidence=Y This is actually talking about using a commercial motor vehicle for occasional personal use. There is a definition of commercial motor vehicle elsewhere on this site- and the first part of that definition is "used in interstate commerce" and then it goes on with the weight aspects, or passenger carrying capabilities. I would venture to guess your personal pickup is not a commercial motor vehicle, but even if it were a CMV, it would be exempt for this kind of occasional use. I think it's not a bad idea to go to the USDOT website and look up and print this, and carry it with you when you travel. It may not prevent you from being hassled somewhere, but at least if you are questioned, you can show why you are doing what you're doing. | |
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Location: Colorado | Originally written by Jaas on 2012-02-14 6:29 PM
I believe the "C" in CDL says it all. If you are using your vehicle for commerce ($) you have to adhere to the DOT laws. If not, you are recreational regardless of weight. Unless you drive something with airbrakes, then you must have CDL with air brake endorsement. Having been through numberous DOT questions and answers sessions through our local business' contractor organizations, I can tell you many things vary from state to state. If you need a CDL because of commerce there are many more things than a CDL you will need. If one of our employees crosses state line with a vehicle with over 10,000 # GVWR they might not need a CDL, but do need a medical card, DOT #, log book, drug screening, etc. My local DOT officer said many restrictions vary from state to state, especially which laws are actually enforced. The "NOT FOR HIRE" thing is an unknown factor here in Iowa. Doesn't matter if you are making the "commerce" for something from yourself or hiring out to haul for someone else. I think the officer put it in this perspective best. I can use one of my company trucks with DOT letters and company name on the side, be towing a company trailer with a combined weigth over 26,000#, and if I am using the unit for personal "non-commerce" use (hauling a load of hay home for my trail riding horses) I do not fall under any commercial hauling guidelines. And I would agree with this. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 155
Location: North Salem, IN | I would have to say Windy has the best point on here so far. If you are using your personal pickup and a 3 horse trailer for your own personal use to relocate to another state, you will not need a CDL. I know there are a lot of misconceptions when it comes to who needs a CDL and who doesn't. It is confusing but sometimes people make it harder than it needs to be. Go to your local truck stop and you can pick up a copy of the DOT rulebook and get the clarifications for yourself and keep it in your truck in the event of any incident with DOT and use it to defend your interpretation of the rule. Plain and simple, with a your pickup and trailer, youdon't need a CDL. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2453
Location: Northern Utah | If your single vehicle does not exceed 10,000lbs and the combination does not exceed 26,000lbs and you are not hauling for a commercial purpose. You do not need a CDL, DOT or MC number. You will be fine relocating across the country. | |
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New User
Posts: 2
| Thanks for the replies so far. I have pretty much determined that I don't need a CDL as I believe if the truck and trailer were over 26,001 lbs I would be seriously taxing my truck.
I didn't really make it clear but it was really the other stuff I was worried about.
Painted Horse - this makes sense to me and kinda what I had thought.
Originally written by Painted Horse on 2012-02-14 7:50 PM
If your single vehicle does not exceed 10,000lbs and the combination does not exceed 26,000lbs and you are not hauling for a commercial purpose. You do not need a CDL, DOT or MC number. You will be fine relocating across the country.
So what I'm getting from all this is basically if I'm just relocating MY animals and self AND am under 26,001 lbs. then I should be fine just going as I am, nothing special. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 658
Location: Rayne, LA | I am very interested in learning about this. I recently bought a Peterbilt with air brakes ( single axle ) and pull a 40 ft 3h trailer. I have checked twice with LA DOTD and have been told that as long as the truck and trailer are both listed in my personal name and I do not profit from any activity that the truck or trailer do, I can drive with any valid LA drivers license. Also " Not for Hire " on the truck means nothing to DOTD or police. Good Riding PS Anyone that travels to trail ride, knows the only profit from doing this is peace of mind and making freinds | |
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Regular
Posts: 83
| I could have phrased my statement wrong "Unless you drive something with airbrakes, then you must have CDL with air brake endorsement."
I know this only to be for commercial drivers. I do not know if air brake endorsements are required for personal use, as I have not read the law. My local DMV instructor had told me air brakes endorsement are required for any vehicle, no matter GVWR, but it was obvious at the time that I was talking about commercial vehicles. I do know you can get a CDL without air brake endorsements, but don't have a clue if you can get, or need, an air brake endorsement with a regular license. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by Jaas on 2012-02-15 11:34 AM<BR><BR>I could have phrased my statement wrong "Unless you drive something with airbrakes, then you must have CDL with air brake endorsement."I know this only to be for commercial drivers. I do not know if air brake endorsements are required for personal use, as I have not read the law. My local DMV instructor had told me air brakes endorsement are required for any vehicle, no matter GVWR, but it was obvious at the time that I was talking about commercial vehicles. I do know you can get a CDL without air brake endorsements, but don't have a clue if you can get, or need, an air brake endorsement with a regular license. According to the Federal Motor Carrier and Safety Administration, you DO NOT need a CDL with air brake endorsement to drive a vehicle that is under 26,000 GVWR that has air brakes. The reasoning behind this is that since a CDL is not required to drive the vehicle, there is no way to require the "air brake" endorsement under the CDL guidelines.Also note that your Class C license does not contain an "L" restriction.
References:
FMCSA §383.5 Definitions.Commercial driver's license (CDL) means a license issued by a State or other jurisdiction, in accordance with the standards contained in 49 CFR Part 383 , to an individual which authorizes the individual to operate a class of a commercial motor vehicle.Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle-(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.
FMCSA §383.95 Air brake restrictions.(a) If an applicant either fails the air brake component of the knowledge test, or performs the skills test in a vehicle not equipped with air brakes, the State shall indicate on the CDL, if issued, that the person is restricted from operating a CMV equipped with air brakes.(b) For the purposes of the skills test and the restriction, air brakes shall include any braking system operating fully or partially on the air brake principle.
Edited by PaulChristenson 2012-02-15 12:33 PM
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Location: Colorado | Paul, that's how Colorado law is too. In fact, most of the western states laws are based on the federal rules. The driver's license requirements for the different states can, and do vary somewhat. People really do need to familiarize themselves with the requirements in their home state. Most of the time, there is reciprocity between the states, so if you are legal in your home state, you will be OK when you travel. That's not the case 100% of the time, but in most cases you'll be OK. If you are concerned, carry with you your states regulations or commercial drivers license manual. At least that way if you are out of your home state and questioned, you can show why you are doing what you're doing. | |
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Regular
Posts: 83
| I was wrong.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 346
| What is SO dang stupid is that I am required because I am over 26k BUT mom and pop that are using their Prevost to pull there cruiser behind isnt. Knowing they have air brakes and its over 26k. The DOT doesnt even know how to enfore it.
Edited by threeman 2012-02-15 3:46 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1881
Location: NY | Here is what I was told by DOT if you do not make money with truck and trailer than you do not need a dot number or CDL that is what I was told and I have it in writing for they web site it is on the first page check with your state dot web site | |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by loveduffy on 2012-02-15 10:39 PM<BR><BR>Here is what I was told by DOT if you do not make money with truck and trailer than you do not need a dot number or CDL that is what I was told and I have it in writing for they web site it is on the first page check with your state dot web site Follow the flowchart...even if it is NON-commercial if the power unit has a GVWR of 26001 or more you'll end up requiring CDL B at the minimum...The reason the LARGE RVs are exempt is that the GVWRs are below 26001 lbs...http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/trailers-transportation/191239d1292327860-do-i-need-cdl-class-license-required-flow-chart.pdf | |
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Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Ignore the above post...FORGOT...The EXEMPTIONS... #1. Recreational Vehicles For Personal use | |
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Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2012-02-16 1:26 PM Ignore the above post...FORGOT...The EXEMPTIONS...  #1. Recreational Vehicles For Personal use But, what constitutes a "Recreational Vehicles For Personal use." ? That seems to be a grey area... What makes horse trailer with LQ a personal RV? Holding tanks, working permanent toilet, built in stove, refridgerator, because I said it's my Personal RV, etc...?? I believe you'll be a "personal RV" at the disgression of the law inforcement official at/on the scene!!! I always thought of a horse trailer with living quarter as a horse trailer first, then comes the RV part which is an addition to the horse trailer.... It's all grey and fuzzy, like our weather today!...!! I possess a valid class "C" operators license. I got no CDL's, missing a leg so that pretty much takes care of the CDL thing. We don't stop at scales, don't have farm name painted on side of truck or trailer, no DOT numbers, no medical card, no log book, no nothing. Every time I've been to Florida I've shown my license to the AG inspectors, they fill out paper work hand the license back to me and wish me a safe trip.... One ton pickup with 6 horse head to head trailer with small Tack/DR, ice chest full of cold drinks and porta pottie.... Is this a personal RV? I really don't think so. Guess we've been lucky. I do keep our trucks and trailers all nice and shiny... I believe if your operating a raggedy, nasty, noisy truck and trailer, LEO may take a second look at you, maybe finding or not finding something you wish they had/hadn't. Of course with these skyrocketing fuel prices, it probably won't make alot of difference, we'll be hanging out at the house... Everything keeps doing up except my RETIREMENT!!! I must go now, the rain has stopped..... | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 350
Location: Penrose, Colorado | Do not know if this makes any difference on an LQ or not but ours has a RVIA tag near the door, which states it is an RV, we have had several LQ trailers and this is the only one that has had this on it. | |
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Regular
Posts: 80
Location: Central WI | When we originally bought our 3H LQ 11' shortwall trailer in MN I came home to WI and titled/registered it. Paid the state sales tax and got TRAILER plates based on the weight of the trailer. I think it was around $120/yr. While camping I noticed several other LQ trailers of similar size and dimensions with RV plates, so prior to the next renewal I went into the DMV to inquire about switching. I took along some pictures of the trailer and the floor plans. I had to prove/show them that over 50% of the trailer was dedicated to "human" occupancy. They gave me some hassle about it but eventually agreed to the switch. I now pay $15/yr for RV plates. It was my mistake to not check it out originally and because I bought the trailer out-of-state the dealer didn't necessarily know WI's registration rules. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | Originally written by kooner on 2012-02-16 2:13 PM
Do not know if this makes any difference on an LQ or not but ours has a RVIA tag near the door, which states it is an RV, we have had several LQ trailers and this is the only one that has had this on it. That RVIA sticker is nothing more than a marketing ploy... The RV mfg's get together, set the standards they want. Then jack up the price on trailers that meet they're "RVIA" specfications.... Sort of a inside price rigging thing. Just like the AARP, send them some (RVIA membership) money and they'll send you an envelope full of coupons and more stickers.... Does that RVIA sticker really make that horse trailer an RV? Or, does it say that the LQ section was built to RVIA specs... I don't know, just asking... | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 346
| well what will get me will be the big a$$ phone number down the side hah???
Edited by threeman 2012-02-16 3:34 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 350
Location: Penrose, Colorado | The RVIA sticker says 5th wheel travel trailer and another tag below it is from Oregon State Gov.and it says the same thing along with the serial number .My guess is you can call both ways. | |
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Commercial Designation Questions (long)
