|
|
Expert
Posts: 1723
  
Location: michigan | http://www.united-horsemen.org/2011/07/18/veterinarian-horsewoman-k... I have some comments on your intro to this week’s Chronicle of the Horse.You start by saying you don’t agree with slaughter, but this is personal property. If you don’t want me to send my horse to slaughter, come and buy it. I have fed raised and agonized over my horses. I have bought several to keep them from slaughter. How many have you bought from the killer pens? I have several extra, and if I can’t find homes for them, I will be obligated to do something with them. My ads in Chronicle got NO responses…I have raised Zone Champions, and a number of successful sport horses. I cant find buyers for their close relatives.You said slaughter was not humane. How much time have you spent in any kill plant? Do you eat meat? Have you hunted? Have you butchered your own dinner? Your beef and pork are killed within the definition of humane slaughter the same as horses. If captive bolt with trained personnel overseen by USDA employees was not humane for horses, its not humane for beef and pork. For the record I am a DVM. I have spent 40 years as a large animal veterinarian and a good deal of that time as a USDA veterinarian. Cattle kills operate at 200 an hour. Hog plants at 1000 an hour. The horse plants killed something like 18 an hour. Do you think it is more likely that they are humanely treated at 1000 an hour or at 18 an hour? Did you know that the videos PETA and HSUS put together were 20 years old? Do you know what the laws concerning humane slaughter are? Do you know who enforces those laws? I do, that was my job. I took it seriously and I enforced it! I do not respect someone who may not even eat meat, who has never seen a packing plant, who has never seen the slaughter process making incorrect assertions with no knowledge of the facts.As far as transport-we used to be 2-5 hours from a packing plant. Now we are maybe 24 hours. Which is more humane? IS it better so stop and unload every 26 hours? Every trip in and out risks injury. Every time the load is handled, the horses are next to different horses. If they had achieved some sort of detente with their truck mates, that has to be re-established when they are reloaded next to new horses. The trucker or buyer stands the loss for bruises and trim damage. horses injured cost someone money!! I have watched them load horses, they try to do it as well as possible. Many of the killer horses were not halter broke and had never been off the farm, so they didn’t load well. Whose fault is that? Shouldn’t the owner, breeder, trainer do that? If they dump them for what ever reason will outlawing slaughter make them spend more time with their horses? Will it make them into competent horse trainers and breeders? (NO).You said the regulations were not enforced. I submit they were. PETA and HSUS have an agenda-they want to eliminate keeping pets, owning animals, domestic animals, riding, showing and eating them. Their agenda was to start with horse slaughter as it is emotional for many of us. Having succeeded there, they will continue to usurp your and my property rights and our rights to live our own lives. They take in millions of dollars, but spend nothing (1/2 of 1%) on actual care for animals. The rest goes to lobbying, payroll, retirement accounts. Check out Humane Watch on the web.The type of horses most desired for slaughter WAS NOT thoroughbreds-too skinny. They are buying for meat in the cooler, and preferred meatier types. Depending on the CUSTOMER, draft and draft crosses, ponies and western types were most desired.You referred to Ferdinands death in a packing house. His United States owners didn’t want him. They sold him and those buyers no longer wanted him. If where he ended up was a concern, they should have NEVER sold him. (That would shut down many big breeders of all types of horses if they couldn’t sell them.)You refer to low end auctions, all auctions have a low end. There is a range whether its Keeneland, Fasig Tipton, the big Quarter horse sales-look at the bids line by line. The killer buyers put in a bid when no one else would get on a horse. That established the bottom of the market. As a DVM I worked a horse sale every other week for 7 years. The buyers had everything from nice riders to killers. After the sale, they would sort through the loose pens (you know the ones no one wanted to mess with, just dumped off and said “sell ‘em.”)They checked papers and rideability to see if anything could be salvaged for other than slaughter. The killer buyers would sell you anything they had bought at minimal or no profit to see them not go to slaughter. It was just that NO ONE WANTED THOSE HORSES. The auctions bring together a willing seller and a willing buyer. Our local auction closed last fall. Couldn’t make enough to pay the help with the low prices and low numbers. I put two mares to sleep and gave two away when the market went bad. I also put a perfectly healthy and usable horse to sleep the same week for a neighbor. He was an Arabian, she was elderly and could no longer ride him. She couldn’t stand the thought of wondering if he was ok, so she put him down. I tried to talk her out of it, but I do under stand her logic.You then said a bullet was appropriate for euthanasia. Have you ever shot a horse? Have you ever shot a gun? Is a distraught, untrained owner with an unrestrained horse going to know where to shoot, the proper calibre of bullet and keep the horse from moving at the critical moment? Gunshot and captive bolt do the same thing-penetrate the brain and render senseless. Is a bullet ricocheting around a safe thing? Is a gun in the home a good thing with the possibility of theft or misuse by others?I will tell you that lethal injection is not without its problems. There is no FDA licensed drug for equine euthanasia. It does not behave the same in all horses. It does not cause easy death in all horses. It leaves toxic chemicals that make it a risk to render or bury (or leave out for wildlife feed). The drug most often used is pentobarbital. It is being used in human executions in this country. It is not made here, but imported. The makers don’t want it used for that, so will probably take it off the market in a couple of years. We wont have it for horses either, then.In a perfect world, no animal would ever die, no child would ever die either. This isn’t a perfect world. I would not send any of my current horses to slaughter if I could help it. If I had one that was mean, dangerous -shouldn’t I have the right to dispose of my property as I see fit? Should the people who do not have horses be telling the industry what to do with theirs? This is a slippery slope!I hope you can do more research into humane slaughter-what was and what is. I enjoy the Chronicle and you have mentioned my horses when they won, and printed some of my articles…. Thanks for the work you do. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Thank You for a very well written article. I agree with you 100%
Edited by doughbelly 2011-07-22 1:55 PM
|
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 824
Location: Kansas | Very powerful. Hope it will open some minds. |
|
| |
|
Location: KY | Farmbabe, thanks for posting that column. It is extremely well thought out and well written. The problem with HSUS and its ilk is that it is not interested in reality or the truth.
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 178
Location: Richmond, Ky | makes 110% sense to me, I have seen people try to give horses away and not be successful, only to take them out somewhere and turn them loose to fend on their own ....now what is crueler...die from starvation or to be put down humanely? |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1723
Location: michigan | I didn't write the article(Veterinarian Horsewoman Kim Houlding) but it expresses my view better than I could have ever written and by someone with first hand knowledge. Feel free to repost this information where ever you see fit.
Edited by farmbabe 2011-07-22 6:01 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 213
Location: Virginia | I agree - the HSUS is simply a political organization that really does not help animals - and they are too closely tied to PETA. Their president lives in quite a swanky residence - thanks to generous donations of people that thought they were feeding a starving puppy. The problem with humane slaughter for horses is that it does not exist in the United States. All remaining US plants wers shut down in 2007. Now all horses sent to slaughter go to either Mexico (most of them) or Canada - frequently on double decker trailers not designed for horses. Broken legs/backs and other severe injuries are not unusual. Non-US slaughter facilities DO NOT have the same standards that we in the US have. If you research non-US slaughter houses, you will be sick - some of those employees really enjoy torturing those animals before they finally die - there is very little (if any) oversight. I am not against humane slaughter, but I am against having the animal suffer unbearibly (in some cases for days) before they die. This statement "shouldn't I have the right to dispose of my property as I see fit?" reminds me of a local radio personality that said it was perfectly fine to toss kittens on a hot BBQ grill and watch them 'dance' (until they died) because they were personal property. Also, this thread should have been under 'horse talk' not 'trailer talk'. I say that because I would not have read it if it had been under 'horse talk' because of a horrible experience (NOT my choice) I had with a horse sent to slaughter many years ago. I thought this thread was going to be a discussion somehow related to trailers/trailering...... |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1205
Location: Arkansas | Well put. and trailering a shorter distance in a country that has regulations and monitoring, (costing $) is more humane than a long long ride to another country where there is a distinct lack of regulation (regulation and monitoring cost dinero) has caused more suffering than one would ever want to know... |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1723
Location: michigan | I'd like to to know where you get your information. As the article states quite clearly most of the facts presented by humane organizations are false and refuted by someone who was there and saw what was going on. I have no idea if the slaughter people really enjoy torturing horses...this sounds alot of the crap fed to us that resulted in the ban of slaughter in the US. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 282
Location: southcentral pennsylvania | I agree 100% with the article. Extremely well written. |
|
| |
|
 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 420
Location: Iowa | Farmbabe, Thanks for Posting. We need to open the U.S. Plants back up. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1069
Location: MI. | Being that the plants are closed in the US, why are horses allowed to be transfered out of the country for slaughter? |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 406
Location: Minneapolis, MN | Originally written by Gone on 2011-07-23 6:45 AM
Being that the plants are closed in the US, why are horses allowed to be transfered out of the country for slaughter? What's the alternative? |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 213
Location: Virginia | No need to attack farmbab, I was not disagreeing with you. Not trying to feed 'crap' either. I am heavily involved in horse rescue in my area. I have many sources of information and I always look for back up info to confirm if what I saw or read was true. (IE - just because someone states something clearly does not mean I won't go and verify the info for myself - and I do agree - the HSUS puts out lots of misinformation to further their political agenda). There are people who enjoy torturing animals - just as there are sickos who enjoy beating their spouses. People like that are attracted to an environment where they can get away with it. I NEVER said that all slaughter personnel enjoy it, but some do. I have seen several videos of personnel laughing while they were torturing the horses in some vile way- nearly all were from Mexican facilities and the videos were not 20+ years old - some cars in the background were recent models. I agree that we should reopen facilities in the US with strict controls/oversight so this does not happen. But more importantly, I think we should look deeper into the problem and try to stop it before it is needed. There are so many BYB's that breed absolute junk that they don't bother to train and end up on these double deckers I got one of my rescues because the parents wanted their children to see the miracle of birth - and then had no clue what to do with the resulting 1,000lb spoiled monster a couple years later (who turned out to be an absolute sweetheart ). I spend many hours educating people who want to breed on the time, money and experience necessary to have a decent horse in the end. (What?? It will be 6 or more years before I have a horse that is experienced enough for my little SuzyQ to win the state championship?!!! And then the horse might not even be good at it?) |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: missouri | One possible alternative is educating these stupid backyard junk breeders into STOPPING it. They will run puppy mills/ horse mills/ or people mills to suck money *any amount* from others.... It is why the market has been destroyed. It is why this country is headed downhill like a snowball headed for hell...Hell yeah! open em up, but be humane about it. Around my area, there are these people raising animals of any kind for the $$$, calling themselves "Christians", taking money until the dam is usually shot for non-producing, yet, these same people are against "Pro- Choice" for humans. It is a joke. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | I don't really see the difference between Horses and cows, they are both livestock. I have horses that i am particulary fond of that will die here on the farm and consider myself to be soft hearted. I do not condone cruealty to any animal and would get angry if I ran across it. the good Lord put these animals here on earth for a pourpose. Now for bashing these back yard breeders while I am not fond of it that is what made america what it is. We do not live in a country that dictates our every day decision(yet) and where do you think that these Championship Bloodlines started from. The solution to this problem is to get the government out of it and quit passing stupid regulations killing any kind of economic growth. If you are one of these people that think it is unbearable to see a horse go to slaughter then buy the dang things and keep them yourself. You think its cruel for a Mustang to go to slaughter well then adopt them. It is time the Government quit shoving money down the drain on these animals. Let them over populate and then see what happens. With All Due Respect My Point Of View |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by Gone on 2011-07-23 6:45 AM
Being that the plants are closed in the US, why are horses allowed to be transfered out of the country for slaughter? Because there is no federal legislation banning horse slaughter, it means that American horses are still able to be shipped out of the country for slaughter. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 5
Location: maryland | Let me correct some misunderstandings:First off, the "United Horsemen" is run & funded by people who have vested interests in the horse meat industry. Not the HORSE industry. The MEAT industry. What is good for making cheap horsemeat isn't always good for the horse industry or the American people. Nobody is stopping any horse owner from selling, leasing, giving away, or humanely euthanizing their horse. The horse is still their property. I am one of those people who visits livestock auctions and buys from the sales. I know what killbuyers want. And the truth is that those horses are not crazy or dying. I have yet to meet a horse out of an auction or killpen that could not be rehabbed and re-homed.I ask you: if these horses are so "unwanted" why do rescues and individuals have to get into bidding wars with kill brokers at the auction? If it's so "unwanted" why isn't it free? Are horses property? Sure. But in America, like all types of property, there are rules and regulations concerning uses and disposal. Your car, your home, your real estate, even a can of paint all have some regulations on what you can & cannot do with them. I am a proud American and a proud horse owner. I don't need a hand-out from the Belgian meatpacking company when it's time to euthanize my horse. I afforded buying him, I afforded feeding him while I owned him... I sure as #$%# can afford to either find him a home or humanely put him down. I don't need your blood money. Here's the reality: Horse processing plants turn out to suck tax dollars out of the community. They depress property values. They pay barely above minimum wage for a high-injury, high-turnover job. They do not give benefits, so it's TAXPAYERS who pay Medicaid and Disability when a worker is injured. They do not have their own sewer plants, so it's TAXPAYERS who have to pay for wastewater plant upgrades when discharges overburden the system. Please look closely at the residents living near the Dallas Crown or Beltex plants for further proof of this.
Edited by funchy 2011-07-24 4:20 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Now I understand why every other town in Oklahoma parts of Texas.Alabama,Mississippi,Arkansas.Iowa,Kansas and Missouri are broke. its all those Chicken,turkey,hog and cattle processing facility's. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2957
Location: North Carolina | Point of information. Medicaid does not pay for workers injuried on the job. State worker's comp insurance does. All employeers are required to pay for W Comp.
When ever you hire a contractor to work on your property... make sure there is a valid WC policy. Otherwise the landowner is liable to the injury.
I would believe any large fixed group of workers such as a packing house will be covered. Too easy for the gov't to check.
Now what other pieces of this post are fallacious? |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1205
Location: Arkansas | I am personally aware of many free horses....the owners just want em gone.........don't know what you do with all that....no body is running in to take em...... |
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 1877
Location: NY | Originally written by funchy on 2011-07-24 5:19 PM Let me correct some misunderstandings:First off, the "United Horsemen" is run & funded by people who have vested interests in the horse meat industry. Not the HORSE industry. The MEAT industry. What is good for making cheap horse meat isn't always good for the horse industry or the American people. Nobody is stopping any horse owner from selling, leasing, giving away, or humanely euthanizing their horse. The horse is still their property. I am one of those people who visits livestock auctions and buys from the sales. I know what kill buyers want. And the truth is that those horses are not crazy or dying. I have yet to meet a horse out of an auction or kill pen that could not be rehabbed and re-homed.I ask you: if these horses are so "unwanted" why do rescues and individuals have to get into bidding wars with kill brokers at the auction? If it's so "unwanted" why isn't it free? Are horses property? Sure. But in America, like all types of property, there are rules and regulations concerning uses and disposal. Your car, your home, your real estate, even a can of paint all have some regulations on what you can & cannot do with them. I am a proud American and a proud horse owner. I don't need a hand-out from the Belgian meatpacking company when it's time to euthanize my horse. I afforded buying him, I afforded feeding him while I owned him... I sure as #$%# can afford to either find him a home or humanely put him down. I don't need your blood money. Here's the reality: Horse processing plants turn out to suck tax dollars out of the community. They depress property values. They pay barely above minimum wage for a high-injury, high-turnover job. They do not give benefits, so it's TAXPAYERS who pay Medicaid and Disability when a worker is injured. They do not have their own sewer plants, so it's TAXPAYERS who have to pay for wastewater plant upgrades when discharges overburden the system. Please look closely at the residents living near the Dallas Crown or Beltex plants for further proof of this. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 430
Location: TN | Yeah, you should see the bidding wars at New Holland. The rescues have single handedly brought horse prices back up-NOT!!! Lots more BS in that post! |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 5
Location: maryland | I buy at New Holland. I personally have had to bid against the brokers. If you don't believe me, I'd be happy to meet you there and show you around. New Holland is a favorite haunt for regional killbuyers.
Do you really think a killbuyer looks across the ring, sees what looks like a nicer person bidding, and he stops bidding on the horse to let it go to a good home? Of course not. They have contracts to fill. It's a commodity, not an animal, to them. I personally know some who will bid UP a price if they see a regular rescue person bidding because they see Rescues as meddlers or threats. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | I really think there are more than enough horses to go around. But if that is what you want or feel compelled to do you have my utmost regards. And yes like it or not they are a commodity. Just a loseing one. Cattle prices keep going up horse meat may be a viable alternative. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 5
Location: maryland | It's illegal to sell horse meat in the US. USDA stamp and inspection is required on any meat for sale. You won't be able to find a safe, legal source.Did you know that about a dozen commonly used horse drugs are toxic to humans and are banned for use in any animal who might go to slaughter? Take bute for example. It can cause aplastic anemia and liver damage. There is no safe withdrawal time. I would not feed horsemeat to my dogs, much less to my family. |
|
| |
|
.jpg) Veteran
Posts: 195
Location: Atlanta, GA | Slaughter Houses are a necessary evil.. It is your right to agree or disagree.. They are not slaughtered just to eliminate them like dogs and cats, they help with the survival of other animals. The meat is processed, packed, and shipped to feed others.. Great Article |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | No USDa stamp required on taking your own to the slaughter plant; or sell one to another individual and they can get it slaughtered with no USDA stamp. To me there is really no difference in Beef,Buffalo, Vension, horse,rattlesnake.alligator. Meat is meat just the notion of a lot of city people that has not been raised on a farm. Cattle has the same type of drugs going into their system. Batril and other antibiotics. You can have all the beef that has a USDA inspection, I wouldn't touch it. I know what has went into my beef. So the next time you are chowing down on a good ol Angus Burger at your favorite resturant just think it could have come from an ol wore out cow that had prolaps and been placed back and the got rid of. Yum Yum |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 5
Location: maryland | If you'd like me to agree with them being "necessary", please explain why. Abuse and neglect does not increase when slaughter is less conveniently available. The price of horses has not be protected by slaughter (GAO report). With so many other ways to deal with a horse one cannot keep (sale, lease, giveaway, donation, or euthanasia), why do we need to subsidize the Belgian meat industry with a cheap source of "product" to "harvest"? The value in a horse has always been in his service: his speed, his training, his ability to pull a wagon, his companionship, his ability to carry us down the trail. Other service animals, such as dogs, are not acceptable to slaughter in this country. Why should a horse's reward for a long life pulling the plow be to ship him to an inhumane death 1000+ miles away? |
|
| |
|
Location: KY | Just lost an elderly mare; charge to have her body picked up $300; was fortunate to be able to bury her on this farm.
Slaughter facilities can be maintained in a humane manner. Please see any of Dr. Temple Grandin's books, articles....
Guess beef and pork and chicken packers pay more than horse packers?
Or is this more vegan propaganda?
Sounds like maybe we should all start keeping livestock if we intend to keep eating meat? |
|
| |
|
Location: KY | Just curious, funchy, how many horses have you adopted, taken in, rescued?
Do you still have every horse you have owned? If not, why not? |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by funchy on 2011-07-25 5:06 PM If you'd like me to agree with them being "necessary", please explain why. Abuse and neglect does not increase when slaughter is less conveniently available.  |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Are you referring to our Government Accounting Office? and if you are; well another subject. I would like for you to send me a personnal message with your address and contac information where we can send you approxx 150 head. I may be able to get enough donations to pay for part of the shipping. These horses are running on the National Forest and getting into peoples gardens,yards. On top of that they are pretty nice bred horses. The guy went so far as to have an Auction with very little luck and spent around $7000.00 . The land owners around that area have been very patient but that is about to end. They are getting to the point of killing them. With a little advertizement along the way I think we may can get you another 5 to 600 head. If anyone wants to know the details or to verify request a pm. Just wondering how many do you want to save? Talking is one thing taking care of 40 to 50 head of horses is another. I have around 30 head of cutting bred horses, several with NCHA earnings and a Stud with NCHA earnings out of a Stallion in approxx the top 25 all-time earnings list. Several of these horses belong to clients that have a considerable amount of money in them. They are here because they and I don't want them to go to slaughter but that is our choice. Not some Government idiot or regulation saying we can't. With All Due Respect. Nuff Said |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Ottawa, Illinois 61350 | It blows my mind that in todays world we have so many people that have either lost what common sense they had, or never had it in the first place. Anytime you don't have s slaughter market to set a BASE PRICE under a species of LIVESTOCK (and yes horses are livestock; not pet kittens or puppies); your not going to have a market for them very long. This has happened in the horse industry in this country; and it will continue indefinitely because of not having that slaughter market for a base price (floor price). The HSUS and PETA and the other animal rights groups have one "long term" agenda in mind.........do away with animal agriculture. Whether it's horse slaughter bans, puppy mill bans, giving chickens more cage space, or stopping rodeo. This is all about dictating what you do with your pets and livestock; it is all about getting you to be a bleeding heart for their cause. Wake up folks..........horse slaughter is just the tip of the iceberg !! Common sense is lost, when people such as the HSUS would rather have you go hungry than have this country raising meat for food. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1069
Location: MI. |  I think it's time for a nice glass of Merlot..... |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1723
Location: michigan | Cheers! |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 5
Location: maryland | Originally written by jim bob on 2011-07-26 11:30 AM
It blows my mind that in todays world we have so many people that have either lost what common sense they had, or never had it in the first place. Anytime you don't have s slaughter market to set a BASE PRICE under a species of LIVESTOCK (and yes horses are livestock; not pet kittens or puppies); your not going to have a market for them very long. This has happened in the horse industry in this country; and it will continue indefinitely because of not having that slaughter market for a base price (floor price). Let's use logic to examine this statement:Killbuyers are still buying American horses. In fact, according to government numbers, the number of American horses dying at slaughter now is slightly HIGHER than it had been. In the past few years, I think most of us can agree the market for most horses is in the toilet. I personally know of dozens of free horses in my region. One web site lists free horses nationwide. THEREFORE, if there is a big number of $0 horses while at the same time a high number of horses are still going to slaughter, slaughter CANNOT be guaranteeing a floor price. It's impossible.
Edited by funchy 2011-07-26 3:27 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Some of you good Yankees deal with it; This Hillbilly's done |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1205
Location: Arkansas | You did well..........the first step toward a solution is being able to see the reality of the problem, whether we wish it as it is or otherwise.... |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 430
Location: TN | What this boils do to for me is that I don't feel the need to regulate what someone else does with their LIVESTOCK, which is what horses are! It is not my job to save the world nor every horse in it. I have sent horses to slaughter that have not been acceptable for people to own and would have no qualms about doing it again! I have no desire to spend my hard earned money caring for horses that other people have wrecked or ruined! I've seen more than one rescue spend an inordinant amount of money "saving" horses that should have been destroyed out of kindness to the horse! You can't save them all! I have also spent time in slaughter houses. Plants here is the US operate for high effeciency and employees do not have time to torture animals coming through the line. I lived for many years in an area with one of the largest pork packing companies in the world, and our community was a much better place for having them in it as a major employer and contributor to the community. Face it folks. There are people who will never understand that the lack of slaughter helped to contribute to a lack of value in horses. It was not the only contributing factor but it was a major one. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1723
Location: michigan | Cutter 99 I complete agree with you..thanks! |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: missouri | Let us all think about starting to; Stop breeding sub-standard animals for no purpose. That includes dogs, cats, horses, PEOPLE. It has all gotten out of control. I have been in the Ozarks for almost twelve years and have a hard time wrapping my head around the culture of being too poor and lazy to get off their asses and work, so they through out a half dozen kids for me to support, don't spay and neuter their dogs and cats (so I feed them when they come over to my farm..rather, they steal food).. and call me an outsider because I have a brain and am accountable for my actions. These are the same people who breed/pasture breed/ inbreed everything that can make them $$. Ya know, we could be meat too! HSUS and other groups will get their job done under this administration... and we won't be having this conversation anymore. We'll be taking medication so we can exist in our little apartments in town. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Lord; Give me strength to keep my mouth shut |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 430
Location: TN | Doughbelly- Do not keep your mouth shut! Everything you have posted has been intelligently put and if we don't voice our opinions we will end up with more results like the slaughter issue here in the US. Our country was founded on the right of free speech! Please use that right!!! |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Here in the Mountains of Western Arkansas there is not a lot of High Dollar Jobs mainly a farming area. the majority of the people do not have college degrees and by outsiders standards just a bunch of dumb country hicks. From time to time we get in people from out of state that smarter and have a deeper bank account. Approxx 10 years ago one of these people ask a native who owned the local livestock salebarn how people made a living in this area. He stated;We raise a few cows,horses and several chickens and From time to time we get people that come in here and buy these big farms, cattle, horses and after about 5 to 10 years they are broke and then we buy it back for about 1/4 to 1/2 of what its worth. the point is if there is no money breeding these horses people are not going to do it. The market will take care of it. We don't need any more stupid regulations from some stupid buearcrat that don't know his butt from a hole in the ground. It does get kinda boring in these mountains so I think one of these whatever animal groups comeing in would make it interesting and create a little excitement. The reason this country is in the shape its in is all these college educated idiots with no common sense. Sorry Lord they pissed me off and Cutter99 egged me on. With all due respect to whoever this might offend |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | This has been going on for thousands of years, It is called nature like it or not. When a species including humans over popuate the weak and stupid don't survive. It doesn't matter how much money you throw into it, it will not change anything. You can horse rescue as many as you can and it won't change things in the end. If horse rescue is your thing and your doing it right for the right reasons I have the utmost repect for you. Don't step foot on this farm telling me what I am going to do or not do. Just baffels me all these do gooders wanting to save all the Mustangs and letem run and do their thing. then they over populate and starve a slow horribile death. Then you have all these wild hogs running loose and its killem all its perfectly acceptable, get real folks. |
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 96
Location: Grapeland, Texas | I talked to a man that lives on the edge of a state forest not far from me the other day and he was telling us about someone dumping 2 donkeys out in the forest. This place is on both side of a very busy highway. Right now there is no water in any of the creeks and only one pond that is so boggy don't know that they could get to it. It is not a very large place either so if they got to crossing the highway that means a chance of someone hitting them and getting hurt or worse, killed. Don't guess the people thought about that little detail. Poor things would probably starve to death now as dry as it is down here now. This man and his wife caught them, don't remember if he said what he did with them, but he didn't go dump them some place. He said also that they have all sorts of animals show up at their place that people have dumped out there. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 430
Location: TN | Didn't mean to egg you on Doughbelly! I just hate to see people not express valid, well thought out opinons! |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Lol; I have chilled now. Just don't care for attacking a group of people in this way. I have no problem with a difference of opinion. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | To me it would have been a lot more humane to have put a bullet between their eyes than to do what these people did to these donkey's. If I had of caught these people I would definantly had a discussion with them. Alls good |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: missouri | No attack on a group of people was actually intended here, but, if the shoe fits, wear it. I am not a member of PETA, nor am I a fan of HSUS... I am simply saying this overpopulation epidemic needs to stop so we can all manage to live on this planet together! By the way... I'm as hillbilly rooted as any of you (I'm from North Carolina). You think I haven't seen chickens and turkeys and hogs killed? (and horses and cows, too). The biggest criticism I have where I am is that they move a crappy trailerhouse in for every worthless kid and grandkid they have, and, yes it is their right. Doesn't make it any easier to swallow. We don't need to get overheated here....and I'm no pansy that runs and hides if I happen to overload my mouth. Often I do that... consider the source and get a laugh that there is still an ole girl out here that hasn't had her head knocked of by her ole man!! (speaking of which, I have sheltered a few of them down here). Sorry if I blew your skirt up...quit wearin one, try Wrangler's, they look better on ya |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Lol;Wranglers won't fit anymore; my butts been chewed to much. Oh well paths will cross; F Water, Buffalo or Caney. Peace |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1877
Location: NY | this has been a very good topics thank you to all that added to this educational  |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 182
| Very good points presented... I agree that with no slaughter there is like no where for these horses to really go.. then you have people who try to rescue these horses and from what i have seen there is quite few of those people that don't know the real cost entailed to take care of these horses that should be slaughtered instead... as a result they have a bunch of them suffering because they aren't able to get enough feed, or care that they truely need... Since slaugther has been banned I have been asked many times if I would take in free horses.. there is like no place for these things to go anymore... that is why you also are starting to see people just abandoning them out someplace.. The price of horses has gone to hell.. I have found it is hard to sell for a decent price.. so many cheap ones or ones being given away out there. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 182
| I often feel that the people who are into animal rights ect.. they have no clue as to it really is... many times it is these people who have no experience in knowing what it takes to care for an animal and/or the reasons for why things are done the way they are... |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1723
Location: michigan | bingo! |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1069
Location: MI. | I have been financially fortunate when it came to the ending of 3 of my past horses, I had a choice. I can see points on both sides when looking at the bigger picture even though I prefer not to use slaughter as an end to my horse's life. Again, I have been fortunate but if it came down to rent, food on the table for my family etc., I would hate it but I would send my horse to slaughter but not now, obviously. I don't want my horse shipped to Mexico, suffering. Would opening the houses back up cradle irresponsible owners and breeders?
Edited by Gone 2011-07-28 10:55 AM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | I don't believe anyone that has posted in this forum likes the idea of slaughter period. If is however essential to control the over breeding that has occurred. This has also occurred in the beef market in past years but slaughter has rectified that. I personally have 8 head that will never go to slaughter period and if they get to the point of either being hurt or suffering from old age I will take care of it myself. As hard as it is to do I feel an obligation to take care of it myself and have in the past. I can also assure you that I have had vets to do it and I have done it myself and a bullet placed in the correct placement is more humane than with a vet. But with all these unwanted horses and some dangerous ones it is the only alternative, While we may not like every joe on the block breeding anything and everything this is the USA and one mans junk is another mans treasure and everyone has different ideas what is junk. There are already Laws on the books to take care of these people for neglect and shirking their responsibility's. Public enforcement would help in this area. Even in this case you get some people in these organizations that feel like a horse needs to be kept in knee deep grass or in shavings in a stall, their is no common sense. we had one turned in because they were in a muddy lot and that spring we had had a vast amount of rain otherwise were being taking care of. A horse is a horse just like any other livestock until you put the time training and trust into that individual animal. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Leave the country for awhile and you have a slaughter thread! Shoot, I hate these threads, but they may be a necessary evil or at least feed the troll.Horse slaughter is not a necessary evil - that is a euphemism for "helps people financially" - it always has a profit motive on some level.If horse slaughter can be done in a humane manner, why have you pro-slaughter people not gotten that accomplished? Years and years and years of talk about a kinder,gentler slaughter process for horses and it's all talk with no accompanying action.Horse slaughter does not decrease the amount of abuse to horses. In fact, horse slaughter/feedlot operations are EXEMPT from most cruelty laws. In our state, they are SPECIFICALLY exempted and there is documented evidence of terrible, unthinkable cruelty.The horse industry should be ashamed of its opposition to the anti-slaughter legislation that failed because of its opposition. No horse slaughter of US horses - no excuses. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | If that is the case then all the beef;chicken,pork,turkey,fish and every other creature should be included; then go live on Rice Krispy's |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| I disagree that they are the same - there are significant and meaningful differences between the slaughter of horses for luxury meat consumption in foreign countries and the slaughter of animals whose purpose in our society is to be bred for domestic meat. I would equate it more closely with paying dog owners to release their dogs (think older pets who are more trouble than they are pleasure now) for brutal slaughter to get the to be shipped to a country in which the cultural norm is eating dogs. Additionally, our slaughter houses are not designed for horses and they are brutal.
Edited by Phoresic 2011-07-30 1:44 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | I think ol Bossy and Porky would beg to differ. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Would Porky's mother have been bred if there were no slaughter of pigs? Would there be any real number of pigs in the US if they were not allowed to be slaughtered? Are the slaughter houses of pigs designed for some other animal and inherently inappropriate for pigs. What about beef cattle? Would the species exist in America if they were not raised for food?Horses are not cattle or pigs, and the difference between them is real. And, no animal should be treated inhumanely before or during the slaughter process. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Can you provide this forum with documentation of cruelty in the slaughter process and not he said they said. I will agree about cruealty to any animal; after there dead it doesn't really matter. As far as slaughter houses there are hundreds across the US that process several different species from one plant. The only difference in these animals is the perception that people put on them. With the drought in the entire southwest and already a shortage of cattle to start with and producers haveing to cut down on their herds and high beef prices, Horse meat could be an option. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Read state laws on cruelty and see that feedlots and slaughter houses are exempted from legal requirements for humane treatment including being fed, sheltered, treatment for pain issues, medical care. Horses can lay untreated for days with bleeding hooves resulting from the coffin bone having rotated through the sole - no treatment, no pain medication - and because the feedlot has a legal exemption, it is not illegal. And, yes, there is evidence to these incidents all over the place if you sincerely look. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Then why are you not an advocate for Cattle, hogs and chickens etc; I'm sure if they are immune from these laws the same thing happens to them. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| I won't waste much more time on this, but I will point out that you are confusing two different issues and consolidating arguments. This causes a waste of time and energy in trying to discuss something. Most pro-slaughter people say that horses are subject to more abuse, abandonment, and starvation if they are not slaughtered. There is absolutely no evidence that supports that and, in fact, there are laws the prevent the abuse, abandonment and starvation of horses. The only time that these laws do not apply is when they are in the slaughter process. Some on this thread, which I have only just read, say that they know people who abandon horses and turn them loose. Those people should be prosecuted. Proper disposable of a horse is that person's legal responsibility as much as providing it feed is. The issue about horses (that were bred, raised and used for pleasure and sport) being the same as cattle and pigs (animals that would not have been born at all had they not been bred for slaughter) is a different issue.If you research the humane laws for cattle and pigs, I think that you will NOT find a different legal standard of care between the cattle and pig owner and the feedlot. I'm pretty sure that's true in my state - so, again, there is a difference. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | I am done also; But it is as I figured all hearsay |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| lol, since when are legal statutes heresay? |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1205
Location: Arkansas | Well, we are beef producers. We know a tremendous amount about what is legal and appropiate for production, handling, preparation and sale, and processing of cattle. Just a note to say there are multiple restrictions on beef being processed, in relation to the medications that are in its system. This is referred to as a withdrawal period. Furthermore, many laws exist for the express purpose of sensible humane handling of these cattle, contrary to many "sources" one cannot even unload a broken-legged or other wise non ambulatory animal at the sale barn or meat processors. There is a great deal of confusion and hysteria by well meaning people who think they understand all this, but are really sadly misinformed. Do I have feelings for our cows, calves, and bulls? Yes, I have held sick ones in my lap, and have buried some that were good to us and had nothing to look forward to, and were pretty worthless to eat! Have I had horses put to sleep, and properly buried, yes, and to this day I can take you to their graves. I do know that many animals are dumped to starve, pets of all types, and yes, many horses. I can take you right now to a skeleton in the national forest of a dumped horse. To prosecute these people one has to catch them first, not like the processing plant where government inspectors are present to observe this process. To kill a horse humanely, that is a question, is it not.. Proper bullet placement, captive bolt gun, those animals can be safely eaten by other animals in the food chain, whether the meat eaters are wild animals, zoo animals, or dogs eating Alpo. Do I eat meat? You betchya. Would I eat horse meat......not if I knew it, or could help it......but if it was that or starve, I guess I likely would. I will say that once the animal has died, if it can be salvaged to feed some other needy animals, that should not be an upsetting thing, this is nature. HUMANE slaughter is one possible part of that process. The wild horse who lives and dies in the wild, well, his likelihood of an easy death is horribly remote....but it's sure natural. A humane slaughter death is truly more easy than that... The chemically euthanized horse requires special disposal. For people with money, land, equipment or a combination of those... this can be done. For those without as much means, they must make harder choices. Should these poor people have perhaps researched more of the possible expenses, including end of life......certainly. But often they find this out at the least affordable time, and who am I to say that the modest price this horse might afford them, as it passes to humane slaughter is not needed for the most immediate needs of their family? These are hard subjects, and the answers are not entirely encapsulated in either money or emotion, but in facts, though they are hard to face, and still require common sense and hard work for the common good of man and animal. I remain appreciative of the original post of this thread being written from an especially well informed intelligent viewpoint. That is my final contribution to this thread.
Edited by flyinghfarm 2011-07-30 7:20 PM
|
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1069
Location: MI. | Good post...... |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | Horse slaughter, Wikipedia view.... Alot of facts, maybe, a little fiction.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Thank you Flying H Farm for saying it better that I ever could; I do not think a lot of people realize how bad the horse industry is in. The individual I referred to earlier with the horses on the National Forest is a current Board member on a major national horse assoc and breed registry. He could not even get bids except on 4 or 5 out of 70 head of horses. The only alternative's were: Haul them to a sale and go to slaughter which he did not want to do; Turn them over to a horse rescue which they could not take any more or let them roam the national forest and bide for time hoping something would give, So don't judge him until you have walked in their shoe's. He has not abandoned these horses but due to the drought conditions he felt like it was the only alternative he had, I just think it is a waste that we have this situation with these horse's and there are children in the world dyeing of starvation that would gladly make use of this resource. But then again I guess the horse may rate better than those kids to some. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| So, FlyingHFarm, you answer that other poster's question about whether there are two sets of laws for cattle - one for those bound for slaughter and one for those not bound for slaughter. It is as I thought - the same law for all cattle. That is not true for horses in my state and that is a legal fact. Many horses that are slaughtered could find homes. I myself have bid directly against the killer buyer and have a friend who had to bid a ridiculous amount to keep a horse from the killer buyer. Horse slaughter is not about the needs of the animals and their protection, it is about the profit motive of an industry as well as to the individual. There are people who, rather than feed a horse during a winter the follows a drought, send it to slaughter only to replace it the following year. There was a vet's wife with whom I spoke, and her answer about their old broodmares was "Well, we couldn't have them dying here!!!" There is a certain level of responsibility that any animal owner must have. To give many people a choice between getting $300 for killing a horse and paying for feed or even the advertisement and aggravation of selling it, is more "personal responsibility" than they can handle. Horses must be protected from that type of person. Oh they are so poor...........rarely true. It's about priorities. I'll just quote the old Popeye movie - "Wrong is wrong even if it helps you." No, it's just about priorities, not financial wherewithal. The legislation that the horse community stopped from passing allowed for people to have their own horses slaughtered for their own consumption, and it also allowed slaughter for other-than-human consumption.
Edited by Phoresic 2011-07-30 8:05 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Horse meat is a luxury meat, not a meat that goes to feed starving children. And no, I don't have to walk in the shoes of an animal abuser to know that it is wrong, and how do you know the various financial situations of people who are antislaughter? |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| I read the wiki article until paragraph two, where it lost all credibility. It's not a neutral article and its contents should be viewed with suspicion. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Mam with all due respect it would appear to me that you live in a city or close to; Have never owned a farm and have absoutly no idea what farmers go through every day. Just a preconceived notion that it is a perfect world and everything is all Rosie. I will tell you the same thing i told the other lady; You don't have to worry about bidding against the killer buyer just give me your address and how many head you want and pay for part of the shipping. We will see how long that will last on the 5 acres you probably own. When you have a couple hundred head that your taking care of then you can join the abusers when you are broke and can't afford it. When is the last time you stayed up all night with one and put your heart and soul into saving it just for it to die. Flying H is right on what she has stated. You take one cow to the sale that you may not have birdshotted and didn't know about I can promise you that all devil will break loose and you will have a lot of exsplaining to do, |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Your post that Horse Meat is a Luxury Meat not a meat that goes to starving children; I believe it says all we need to know about you. With All Due respect |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by flyinghfarm on 2011-07-30 7:16 PM The chemically euthanized horse requires special disposal. For people with money, land, equipment or a combination of those... this can be done. For those without as much means, they must make harder choices. Should these poor people have perhaps researched more of the possible expenses, including end of life......certainly. But often they find this out at the least affordable time, and who am I to say that the modest price this horse might afford them, as it passes to humane slaughter is not needed for the most immediate needs of their family? These are hard subjects, and the answers are not entirely encapsulated in either money or emotion, but in facts, though they are hard to face, and still require common sense and hard work for the common good of man and animal. I remain appreciative of the original post of this thread being written from an especially well informed intelligent viewpoint. That is my final contribution to this thread. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 282
Location: southcentral pennsylvania | As for horse meat being a "luxury" meat, I can not speak for all countries in the world, but can for Mongolia. 10 million head of livestock (horses, sheep, goats) and 1 million people. I spent almost 2 weeks on a horse trek in central Mongolia. And yes, I ate horse meat. Common item for the table. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| I have in this discussion (and always) limited my discussion to the slaughter of American horses. The original post on this thread concerned American horses. No American horses or horse meat is exported to Mongolia. In some countries they eat dogs, in some they eat cats, in some they eat monkeys (even live monkeys), and in some they eat human fetuses. But, all of that is irrelevant to the slaughter of American horses for consumption by Europeans and Japanese. American horse meat is expensive and is destined for higher end restaurants. So, what is your point? |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 282
Location: southcentral pennsylvania | I apologize, Phoresic, for my misinterpretation of one of your replies, i.e., "significant and meaningful differences between slaughter of horses for luxury meat consumption in foreign countries........." I was merely pointing out that it is not a "luxury" meat in all foreign countries. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| No problem. It's just that people (who are new to the debate) can be easily confused by the many issues in the slaughter of American horses as the internet discussions tend to have wide swings and confusion of issues. If the discussion is not very focused it becomes even harder for them to form their opinions. For all of us who have been in this debate for a long time, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that many are new to it. If it weren't for them, I would not be in this discussion at all. I'll go out on a limb here and say that I think the things that people need to understand in order to form their own opinions include: 1) is it helpful or harmful to horses in general and individually to have slaughter of American horses as it exists today (and during the last 30 years) or is simply a matter of industry and personal profit motive, 2) is controlling/stopping the slaughter of American horses in America or in unregulated countries (and the related transportation) contrary to private property rights of individuals. Clearly, I think it is 100 percent profit motive and zero percent for horse - I'm not even saying that that makes it wrong, just that people who are trying to form their opinions need to understand this and not blindly accept that horses will be harmed if slaughter (and relating transportation) of American horses for non-personal human consumption is made illegal.I am a limited government person, but see that the government can have a role in the treatment of animals - though, of course, as governments do, that role will be expanded too far - but politically, we have bigger issues than horse slaughter facing us. It sounds like you had a cool trip and if you posted about it, I'd like to read about it. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: missouri |  One idea... Soylent Green is making a comeback! Anyone recall the sci-fi movie from the 70's???? Where they took older people to some "Disneyworld type" place, killed them like livestock,then turned them into protein pills for the remaining population to eat???? This admistration is headed there ie; Medicare-Medicaid-Social Security cutbacks... threatened credit rating of the U.S., 10-20+% unemployment, etc. What are we talkin about here? We may need these horses to ride *not for entertainment* when they legislate our trucks out of existence...
Relax peeps, go have two glasses of Merlot, or Chardonay, or good ole Bud Light. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 406
Location: Minneapolis, MN | American horse meat is expensive and is destined for higher end restaurants. So, what is your point? You're gonna have to back that statement up with a link or two. Beef is shipped all around the world, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the price of horse meat is less than that of beef. Given what the kill buyers are paying. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | horse at the right place and if your lucky .22 a pound 8 to 900 pound steers/heifers $1.39 # on the hoof |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3853
Location: Vermont | Originally written by doughbelly on 2011-07-31 5:23 PM
horse at the right place and if your lucky .22 a pound 8 to 900 pound steers/heifers $1.39 # on the hoof
French prices are rather higher than that, but France
produces mainly young colt’s white meat..... http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/tx_vm19docsbase/DIP_ECO_03_HO...
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 229
| flyinghfarms, you provided a very thoughtful response, as did some others. It's hard times for some folks now and looking to get harder in the future. Every year I go to the Western States Horse Expo. The turnout was poor, both vendors and customers. However, I did see one new outfit and they were raffling something. Being a sucker for a charity raffle I decided to ask some questions before I plopped down a chuck of my shopping money. These folks were helping people who had lost both job and sometimes home and couldn't keep their horses. They were either re-homing or euthanizeing. $300-400 for kill and disposal is a fair chunk of change for somebody who doesn't even have a job. I live in Oregon and we are fifth in the nation per capita for food stamps. You can't much sell a horse around here unless it's something really fancy. And yes, people are just turning the horses loose in the national forests and it works quite well until winter. We've got big mustang corrals in the eastern part of the state, 500-2000 horses live there. These horses need to be fed all year long. As times get tougher, how can we collectively afford this? doughbelly, I agree. I'm sure that my little calves don't want to go to slaughter any more than a horse does. I don't think it matters to the 4H kids either. They like their steers just as much as another kid likes their horse. Kid's with tears in their eyes at the auction showing their steers. That said, my horses are going nowhere and will be planted with me. But I understand that other folks might not be so fortunate. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | I have been lucky enough to have leased extra pasture and Hay meadows I use approxx 100 rounds bales and 700 square bales each year to provide for horses that I have carried over in the last four or five years. I have a surplus of around 300 round bales and 3000 square bales that I sell to buyers that buy every year from me. This year this total will be cut in half. the people buying from me are in trouble and I can do nothing about it. We had a wet spring and the 1st cutting was around 30% short then we went into a drought with no end in sight.I do not even know if we will get a 2nd cutting. This weekend I had 5 phone calls from Texas and One from New Mexico looking for hay,(I am not a hay broker) They are getting desperate, Normally in years past this area shipped a lot of hay to those areas. This year you cannot even buy hay here at any price right now. The Hay producers are even short themselves. I can tell you that there are a lot of producers selling out or severely cutting down for lack of hay. My point is cattle has a slaughter market to go to. As I was making my morning runs to the Vet Clinic and local Coop I observed 5 different farmettes with horses ranging from 5 to 10 head. There was no grass in the pasture. They had no hay in the barn or stacked outside. If they could find hay and if they could afford $100 dollars a bale for it, figure how long it would take to deplete a family's financees that are already struggling. Now consider this effecting the entire south west and all the people in this same predictment. They have no where to sell 95% of these horses. They have no hay that they can buy so what do they do. If they hold on to them your animal cruealty people are getting involved which is a felony in Arkansas now. They really don't have a slaughter market to sell to. So you bright people that are against this slaughter tell me a bright idea. Cause more than likely if the weather don't change quick you are going to see some of the cruealest sights a person can imagine. I am so soft hearted I cannot even haul off our steers that we butcher. But I'll be damned if I let an animal sit in the pasture and die a slow miserable death. The only education I have came from being on the farm, So I really wouold like for some of these bright minded. educated people please tell me what the frickin soloution is. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| We went through the worst drought in 500 years and the worst single year since 1725 or something not too long ago. Hay was scarce and expensive. Still the people who had their priorities right were able to provide for their animals. For many people, the FIRST thing they want to cut out of their budget is feeding and selling expenses for their animals, and that's the problem - especially coupled with the idea that it's too much trouble to give them away. Just takes too much effort, and most people put a ridiculous price on a horse and wont' take less, then send it off to slaughter rather than take the $2000 that it might have been worth when they priced it at $4500. This happens over and over and over.If the situation really did exist as you describe, then those people should have the horse euthanized (chemical or expert shot) and rendered or buried, whichever they want and can do rather than let the horse starve. You are talking about Texas and New Mexico, not NYC. The cost wouldn't be much more there than here, and that's up to $150. That being said, I do not believe your scenario is real.
Edited by Phoresic 2011-08-01 1:01 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Can't see where a drought would really matter in NYC. But I now understand the reason for your stance on these issues. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 45
| I understand the sentimentality about horses, but as a former 4-Her I can tell you that those kids are just as attached to cattle, sheep, pigs, etc., as horses, seen plenty of tears at the conclusion of the fairs during the auction. After having been around horses since the 50's (I was born in '53), I have never seen horse prices so low. I don't know where you are from, Phoresic, but when you state people are asking $4500 for a $2000 horse, well you aren't in my area, nor are you really educated as to the problems and issues with the livestock market. I ride competitive trail and endurance, I picked up a weanling colt, full Arab, with excellent bloodlines, his granddaddy was a 100-mile horse, for $1 four years ago. Owner said she could keep him for nine months and wouldn't be able to sell him for what she had in him. Would liked to have given him to someone who could keep him a stallion, because he was such a good horse, and she had gelded his sire, due to economic times. I told her he was going to be gelded on my property, but if she found someone else who was willling to take him and keep him a stallion, I would let them have him, got no takers so I have a fine four-year-old young horse for $1. Times have only gotten worse. I got an e-mail today about several Arabian horses, that haven't been feed for three days due to a domestic dispute. They are in Ark., free for the taking, the pictures show they are nice. I have been looking lately for the right gaited horse, for a family member, and have found a few for free, (one was a nice Paso Fino registered gelding, very sweet, just too small for my relative's purposes, would be fine for a smaller adult), a few for around the $250 to $500 range. Now I live in eastern Kansas, one of the more prosperous areas, though we are having a heat wave and drought, we are having nothing like the folks in Texas, western Kansas and elsewhere, our corn may be burning up, but I still know we are lucky in comparison to many. I have plenty of pasture and won't have problems with hay this fall. I can take care of my five horses, three of which are old and lame, but they are my babies and they will stay with me as long as I can take care of them. I have had to put down six old horses, in the last ten years, all shooting them with the awful chemicals and paid to have them taken away, except for my dad's old stallion, paid to have him buried, though I have to admit I didn't like putting a horse in the ground with the poison leaking out of his body. Cost me quite a bit, I certainly am sympathethic to people who can't afford to do this. There is no excuse that we couldn't have humane slaughter places for unwanted horses. I would still chose to put my horses down with a vet at home, but I don't expect everyone who owns a horse to always have such funds, and quite frankly whether a horse is used for dog meat or whatever it is better than sticking poison in them to polute the ground. I have a friend who just acquired some special American Saddlebred horses from back east, auctioned off for little next to nothing, why?, because there was a catatrophic illness in the family and they went bankrupt. Any and all of us can be susceptible to that kind of bad luck, our horses may not our first concern when we are trying to save property and provide for our family. I know more than one farmer who had to sell off land and the kids' inheritance due to illness. I know that things are worse in the western states. Lots of noise about responsible breeding, too, but the reality is you can breed two outstanding horses, and still only get an average or below average colt. That's why breeders breed so many because that one special horse might be one out of hundred, or one out of thousand or more. I have seen some well-bred horses, with a big pricetag to boot, that I wouldn't take for free, and some average backyard horses that could come home with me in a heartbeat. Being a distance rider I have different interests than some, and I can appreciate all breeds and all types of horses, what I personally require is an athletic horse. As long as we have horses, for whatever purpose, pleasure, competition, ranching, etc., we will have excess animals and we need humane slaughter houses that are local, no need for injured horses to be shipped hundreds of miles. Oh, by the way, my vet is a personal friend of mine, she charges me less than her normal customers to put down a horse, last time was about $125, think she usually charges $175 or more, then there is the rendering people, they picked up the horse for about $150, probably the cost is more now since gas prices went up. That's been a few years ago. I would say it is at least $300. If you have several horses that is no small change in this part of the country. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| People tried for 30 years to have humane slaughter of horses and failed. Establish a system and place that is truly humane, *then* the various sides can talk - but not before the system that has existed for the last 30 years has been totally revamped. Pro-slaughter people want to keep slaughtering the horses in the horrible system and talk about fixing the system. I say you fix the system *first* - no horse to slaughter until you *prove* that the system has been totally revamped - and that will never happen. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | NEXT |
|
| |
|
Location: KY | Phoresic If you do not believe the problems are real, then you need to take a road trip. I live in rural Kentucky. The charge to come get my deceased old horse last month was $300. I opted to bury her on my farm. Sounds like you have an agenda and are not going to be influenced by the facts or reality. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| That's not very polite. I readily admit that I am anti slaughter. I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I have an agenda. Are you saying that you will not convince me that slaughter of horses in the current system as it has existed for 30 years is acceptable? That is true. You will not change my mind as I investigated all of this quite thoroughly before forming my opinion. I am very well apprised of the facts, and have been for several years. Paying people to subject their horses to a system that is admittedly (by most people) very brutal is not a solution that is acceptable.There are cheaper options in the disposition of horses, as you, yourself admit - you opted for the cheaper option of burial. The poster above stated the cost of having her horse euthanized by her friend vet. Because of her friendly relationship, she probably had not investigated a cheaper option, though I did not ask her. Our renderer will shoot a horse (and seemed quite competent and knowledgeable in such things) for free when he comes to pick up an animal. So, there are options that can reduce the cost of killing a horse. There are also many people who will take in an extra horse or two if they have room. I have four that would have ended up at slaughter. There are legal and social pressures that prevent many people from starving a horse to death. If you have a horse in your pasture that is starving, your neighbors will see it and you will see it. If you send it to slaughter, you don't have to admit it to anyone, including yourself. The fact is that there are options for a horse that you don't want, but if you pay someone $300 to $900, they have no incentive to explore those options. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2957
Location: North Carolina | Just my $.02 to the discussion. Banning horse slaughter is excessive gov't. What is good policy for an urban area like NYC is bad policy for middle NC (where I am now, having lived in both places.) It is far better to to govern least and allow individuals to make the best for them choice. As Russia and China have learned, Central planning is a disaster for the individual. Too bad, we can't learn from those mistakes.
My vet said it best, Since ending US horse slaughter, he has seen more horses in "poor condition" (euphemism for starved) than in the rest of his career of many years. Is there cause and effect or just a coincidence? I think it's cause and effect |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Since you are so knowlegable of the facts and have investigated it so well; Lay it out here in black and white and quit spoutin all this BS. I would sincerely like to hear it cause I can tell you that I can go ballistic when I see someone actually abusing animals. Now if you are on here to just yank people's chain that is fine . Cause right now our high's are 110 degrees and dang sure to hot to work horses or do anything else and this sure breaks up the boredom |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | New York City!! you got to be kidding me; LMBO and your trying to tell us the country facts of life. No wonder, do you even know how beef gets on your plate. you do know they have to kill it first. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2957
Location: North Carolina | Originally written by Phoresic on 2011-08-01 8:15 PM
That's not very polite. I readily admit that I am anti slaughter. ... Phoresic. It is not polite to inflict your views on me, yet you and your ilk have just done that by turning our gov't to your view. You have taken away my freedom to make a particular choice. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | And that is starting to piss a lot of people off who normally would never say anything. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3802
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | Man, talk about "beating a dead horse"...... Back to the subject of horse trailers, how about those "double deck horse trailers"...?? Stole a little article about them.... Another law, rule, etc... http://rtfitch.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/bill-to-ban-double-decker-horse-trailers-introduced/ |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| hosspuller, I am not from NY City. That statement was acknowledging that it would be expensive to kill and dispose of a horse in the middle of a large city but that the other poster was talking about rural Texas. I'm not in NYC.I have taken no ones freedom and if you look at my posts you will see that I believe there are two issues, one of which is the governments role and say that I am a small-government person. That post is in this thread. Horse slaughter is not illegal by federal law or by my state law. There was proposed federal legislation to stop the slaughter and transportation to slaughter of American horses. That legislation failed and is no longer pending which is why the subject remains - the horses are still being tranported and slaughtered. For the most part, the free market (something I support) stopped the slaughter of horses in America and may stop the slaughter of American horses. There is something about the Europeans not wanting to import American horses because they have too many chemicals in their system that seems to have taken the most toll on the slaughter industry.So, have no fear about my taking your right to slaughter your horse away from you. If you are concerned about your loss of personal freedom, I hope you are out there supporting and voting for the right people - serious threats to our freedom exist, but its being illegal to slaughter your horse isn't currently one of them. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Yeah, Retento, it is a subject that I never expected to find on the trailer forum and avoid on most horse forums. Here, though, there was only one person giving a viewpoint against slaughter and some people were expressing that they were learning from the thread. I felt that the silent people who were learning from this thread should be given the anti-slaughter viewpoint to consider. Also, the anti-slaughter people are written off as hysterical, over-emotional and ignorant. I was providing the logical reasons that I see that the slaughter of American horses should not be legal. If you read my posts in this thread, you will see what I was trying to do. Rarely can you change a mind that has been made up, but there are people reading these threads who are looking for information, and I was giving it.I hated opening this forum and finding the slaughter thread but it was here. |
|
| |
|
Location: KY | I did not intend to be polite.
I want to know how much the renderer charges to come to your place to pick up a horse. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Retento,the horse trailer legislation you linked is a bit scarey. It will be likely that they'll put size limits on the sizes of personal trailers, and instead of targeting the slaughter-bound trailers, it'll ultimately target non-slaughter personal users instead. One thing it says is that horses need 7 or 8 feet of height in their trailers - and this may open the door to some seriously bad legislation. It reminds me of the California "minimum standards" for horse care where a 12 x 12 stall is too small to house a 15 hand horse. On that same link, I see that legislation banning slaughter may have been reintroduced this summer while I was gone. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Originally written by rose on 2011-08-02 9:55 AM
I did not intend to be polite. I noticed, but I don't understand why you wanted to be rude.Originally written by rose on 2011-08-02 9:55 AM
I did not intend to be polite.I want to know how much the renderer charges to come to your place to pick up a horse. I have already said that in this thread. It was $100, and now it is $150. That includes shooting the horse in a humane manner if you want him to. Of course I haven't shopped around for price so it can be done for less. My neighbor buried her horse, so there are cheaper options.
Edited by Phoresic 2011-08-02 10:01 AM
|
|
| |
|
Location: KY | Where? |
|
| |
|
Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | I don't know that burying a horse would be any cheaper, unless you have the ability to dig an appropriate hole yourself. I have buried many myself, but I have the ability to dig a hole that is long enough, wide enough, and deep enough to keep critters from digging them up. But if I didn't have the ability to do it, by the time I paid someone to dig the hole and then fill it back in, and paid the vet $65, it would cost me around $175. As far as having a renderer come, there aren't left left in our area that I know of. You have to haul them off yourself, and there's only one landfill in the area that accepts carcasses. And they charge $50 for that. I do agree that the limited slaughter has effected the horse market as a whole. There is no bottom to the market anymore. I have watched many well bred mares in the 8 to 12 year old range, that have been producers, bring $500. The same type of mare used to bring $2,000 to $2,500. And that wasn't even at the top of the market. The number of horses has exploded. Careless breeding is a cause, yes. But careless breeding has alway been there. The change has been the slaughter plants. And with our holier than thou attitude in this country, we have gone from what was believed to be inhumane, to standing on trucks for days instead of hours, and slaughter at plants with little or no regulation. So tell me, has the situation been made better, or just changed to help with consciences? |
|
| |
|
Location: KY | I ask again, Phoresic, where? |
|
| |
|
Location: KY | Retento Can you post the link to the USDA APHIS site with the regulations for slaughter horse transport? (sorry I cannot figure out how to do that) |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| So tell me, has the situation been made better, or just changed to help with consciences? I believe that the problems that exist today result from the failure of the well-crafted legislation that would have banned horse slaughter AND the transportation of horses to slaughter in other countries to pass.I see from Rentento's link that that legislation has recently been reintroduced. If it is the same, and if it passes, it will make it illegal to transport horses across the border for slaughter for human consumption. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Originally written by rose on 2011-08-02 10:59 AM
I ask again, Phoresic, where? Rose, I am not inclined to answer this. |
|
| |
|
Location: KY | "That being said, I do not believe your scenario is real." |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | like it or not; which I don't, For it or against it .you will see horse slaughter back in 5 years |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Like it or Not; Which I don't For it or against it. You will see horse slaughter back in 5 to 8 years |
|
| |
|
Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | Originally written by Phoresic on 2011-08-02 11:07 AM So tell me, has the situation been made better, or just changed to help with consciences? I believe that the problems that exist today result from the failure of the well-crafted legislation that would have banned horse slaughter AND the transportation of horses to slaughter in other countries to pass.I see from Rentento's link that that legislation has recently been reintroduced. If it is the same, and if it passes, it will make it illegal to transport horses across the border for slaughter for human consumption. I will agree with you to the extent of legislation, but where I stand it is over legislation, not poorly written legislation. So we no longer consider horses livestock? Where does it stop? Cattle, pigs, sheep, goat, chickens, turkeys... As I said before, holier than thou attitudes and consciences, that's all it is about. We do not believe it to be right, so we will force our beliefs on everyone else. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Originally written by Tresvolte on 2011-08-02 11:27 AM Originally written by Phoresic on 2011-08-02 11:07 AM So tell me, has the situation been made better, or just changed to help with consciences? I believe that the problems that exist today result from the failure of the well-crafted legislation that would have banned horse slaughter AND the transportation of horses to slaughter in other countries to pass.I see from Rentento's link that that legislation has recently been reintroduced. If it is the same, and if it passes, it will make it illegal to transport horses across the border for slaughter for human consumption. I will agree with you to the extent of legislation, but where I stand it is over legislation, not poorly written legislation. So we no longer consider horses livestock? Where does it stop? Cattle, pigs, sheep, goat, chickens, turkeys... As I said before, holier than thou attitudes and consciences, that's all it is about. We do not believe it to be right, so we will force our beliefs on everyone else. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Just got off the phone with some people in NW Arkansas; No grass; no hay and need a place to go with some horses. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| TresvoltUgh! Your argument is truly a persuasive one. I hadn't really discussed horse slaughter since before the last presidential election and the whole world has changed so much.......
Edited by Phoresic 2011-08-02 11:59 AM
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 45
| Unless I was willing to put a bullet in my horses and kill them myself, which I would admit is the better option than filling them with poison, there is no cheaper option. I don't have a gun, so I would have to invest in that, and quite frankly, don't have the stomach to kill my own pet. This, of course, is something you want to do correctly the first time so the animal doesn't suffer. All six of those horses were ill, I could have let them die on their own, suffer their final hours in agony, that would have saved me the vet bill. That would be my cheaper option. If I weren't so careful about checking on my horses probably one or two could have died on their own without my intervention. Obviously I am not that type of person, nor am I the type of person that would take an old, lame horse to the auction, knowing that his destination would be the slaughterhouse, but I understand the economics of why some people can't afford to feed horses and I am not opposed to having an animal used as meat. That is why local slaughterhouses are needed. Two of those six horses were taken to K-State in hopes of saving them which entailed about $1200 each not counting the cost of transporting them. That was on top of the original vet bill which was significant, I can't remember now, but it was probably at least $300 each. Also, I left out a 37-year-old pony that I had the vet come out on Sunday to put down, she was down on Saturday, had the vet out, was hoping that she would recover, but when she didn't get up within 24 hours I didn't want her suffering until Monday so I paid the emergency charge to alleviate her suffering. I have spent quite a bit of money taking care of old and sick horses, but I don't expect the average animal owner to be able to do that. The local dead animal company around here only picks up dead animals for a fee. They don't kill them for you, so the only option is a gun or a vet. I stand by my statement that it costs about $300 to get rid of a horse if you have to put him down and have the dead animal people come and take them away. I don't know where you get your information, Phoresic, or where you live since you are unwilling to provide that information, but I can say you are not knowledgeable regarding the cost of getting rid of a horse here in eastern Kansas. I know rural vets may charge less than my vet, some may charge more depending upon where you live. I know many people just haul the horse to the far end of their property and let the coyotes finish them, well, once they are full of the poison that is an irresponsible and illegal act. I am sure that Dr. Temple Grandin would be more than happy to be a consultant on designing humane slaughter for horses. Perhaps she already has. There is a video of Dr. Grandin lecturing on the behavior of horses so she is not just an expert on cattle and pigs. It is obvious she has been involved in the humane slaughter of animals for many years. I do know that years ago you could take your unwanted horse to the dog food plant in Topeka. I know some people have been able to give their dead horse to a zoo, but not if it were put down by a vet, can't feed that poison to animals. I don't like the idea that there are no options in the US. Now that the Texas and Ill., plants are closed horses may end up in Mexico. I realize there are efforts to prevent the exporting of horses for slaughter, but if efforts and money to end slaughter were put into making slaughter humane there would be a win/win situation. I don't buy into the premise that horse slaughter is inherently inhumane or that it has to be. I have seen cattle and chickens butchered on the farm when I was a kid so I have witnessed it firsthand, tho I have never been to a slaughterhouse. I doubt that you, Phoresic, visited Ill or Texas slaughterhouse before they were shut down in 2007 and I am aware that at least some of the Humane Society propaganda videos were from Mexico, not the US., although I don't know that all of them were exclusively from Mexico. When we are viewing propaganda from an organization that has a one-sided agenda it must be viewed with a critical eye and we have to acknowledge that we may not be getting the full picture. I realize the beauty and spirit of horses and the way the American public romanticizes horses in general has more to do with this debate than common sense and economic reality. The American public is basically ignorant of the reality of rural America. Because of the Humane Society misrepresentation of this issue they will never receive another dime from me. I don't use those free address labels they are always sending me wanting contributions either. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | I wish I could put together statments like this. |
|
| |
|
Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | I've seen this argument on other boards. Do you really think that the law preventing horse slaughter will lead to laws preventing the slaughter of cattle? or, more to the point, will the prevention of slaughter of horse lead to the prevention of the slaughter of cattle before that is done by some other means?
Loss of freedom never happens all at once. It comes in small steps. The slaughter of horses is an easy place to start because of our emotional attachment to them. Once done there, it is easier to justify other areas of livestock. Those who would stop us all from eating meat have other, more direct means to achieve that end? I mean, Obama has a powerful czar (Cass Sunstein) who wants to give animals the right to sue their owners. (Obviously, the animals would need a human to help them......so that just means someone can sue you on behalf of the animal.)
I don’t believe that common sense is that far gone, or ever will be, but stranger things have happened. However, there are people and organizations that believe strongly enough to take up that cause to sue someone on behalf of the animal. He wants to ban hunting, and there is a lot of talk of people having to eat certain things, and meat-free days and all of that.So, you may be right that this is part of the agenda of some people, but is it the llkely way to achieve that? I don't know. I've seen places where the "line" was crossed and it lead to places no one would have believed. I consider this to be the most persuasive argument against making horse slaughter illegal. Our personal freedoms are definitely under assault, and I hope everyone who considers this a personal freedom issue stands firm and vocally against the other assaults on personal freedom.
There are people that argue against eating meat due to the enviromental impact. The United Nations published a report in 2006 that stated "livestock is responsible for 18% of greenhouse gas emissions." The report was controversial in the methodology in which it was used, however it still attacks meat consumption as being one of the issues. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock%27s_Long_Shadow While we all believe our horses are our friends, they are still livestock. We form a bond with them, an attachment, but the same can be said about other animals. They all have their own personalities. As someone stated earlier “just ask any 4-H kid about their cattle, pigs or sheep.” We have horses, donkeys, cattle, goats, pigs, chickens and a few other miscellaneous creatures around the farm. I love my animals, but that does not keep me from knowing that they are all a commodity and they all serve a purpose. However, slaughter can be done humanely. Quite honestly, in my opinion, this is an area where we have shipped jobs out of the country while a valuable commodity is being wasted. The worst part of that is the chain effect that it has on the rest of the market. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| Tresvolte, yeah, the cooking the frog thing:)I don't agree that animals are all the same, nor do I believe that horse slaughter is or has been humane. Would pigs or cattle exist if they could not be used for meat? Would horses exist if they could not be used for meat? What would happen to pigs in America if their slaughter were made illegal? Would they continue to be bred? Would horse continue to be bred? There are significant differences, but I've tried to keep the discussion more focused for my part. I don't believe that horse slaughter is ever for anything other than profit motive, whether that is acceptable or not is subject to debate, but it is for profit motive. For me the profit motive is not sufficient justification; for some people it is. The few people who truly can't do better by their horses than to send them to slaughter are small in number and will not support an industry. And even if they need to do that, there are non-human consumption options, such as the zoos, and carnivore sanctuaries. I also don't believe that the closing of the slaughter plants in Texas and Illinois is responsible for the collapse of the horse market. It's the economy, and the droughts/fires also have a serious impact. Certain breeds such as Arabians and even TB's are in disfavor and are undervalued by people in general. If the absence of slaughter brings the horse market down, I simply do not care - that is that profit motive and to me it is not persuasive. That is creating an artificial base price. Slaughter is a place where people can easily dispose of a horse that may be of value to someone else, or where people abrogate their duty to a life-long servant. Ehhh, people may like their animals, but very few love them. It is likely that the free market will continue to diminish the demand for American horse meat, and it is always better to allow the free market to resolve a problem. |
|
| |
|
Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | Yes they would all still exist. And there would be a glutton of them just like the horses right now. Prices would come down and new people would think they want one for a pet much like what has happened with horses. Then they would get tired of them and try to get rid of them because they are tired of feeding them. Here is what happens when the market comes down as far as it has. The normal person can now afford a horse. But they can't afford the upkeep and they don't realize it yet. Or how much work it is. Now all of the sudden we have horses starving, being turned out, being left to starve. This is a really bad example but I have to use it... the home market. It was pushed that everyone should be a home owner. So thanks to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae we have all these houses selling. Now the economy tightens up and people can't afford them. So they fall into disrepair, and get repossessed. And now Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have all these bad loans they can't collect on...and we are still living that story. The slaughter market is all about money. I am not going to argue that. But the slaughter market helped maintain a bottom line. Call it artificial if you want to, but it was still there. And it kept every John and Jane from trying to own a horse. You said... "it is always better to allow the free market to resolve a problem", but in this case the free market isn't deciding it. Exactly the opposite. The free market had the slaughter houses here in the U.S., but now legislation put a stop to it. And that is a dangerous slippery slope.
Edited by Tresvolte 2011-08-02 4:17 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 165
Location: Western Ar | Be all that as it may; You are looking at an Impending disaster looming in the next couple of weeks that will virtually wipe out what is left of the horse industry except for the wealthiest and best prepared horse owner. You are going to see horses that very well may starve and there will be nothing the horseowner can do about it. |
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 73
Location: MI | http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/aug11/110815a.asp
Just a reminder in this discussion, but horse slaughter was not banned."Since fiscal year 2006, Congress has annually prohibited the use of federal funds to inspect horses destined for food, effectively halting domestic slaughter. With the cessation of domestic slaughter in 2007, Congress directed the GAO to examine horse welfare."Ergo, horse slaughter is still legal, you just cannot do it commercially for consumption.
Edited by Bleve 2011-08-02 9:38 PM
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 45
| Originally written by Phoresic on 2011-07-30 11:20 AM
If horse slaughter can be done in a humane manner, why have you pro-slaughter people not gotten that accomplished? OK, maybe I missed it in all the posts(along with the minutes lost forever), but could Phoresic please answer/answer again: 1)Is all slaughter(USDA regulated) in THIS country (cattle,pork,chicken,etc) done in a humane manner? 1a)If it is, should horses, when considered livestock in that particular state, be treated differently? 1b)If it isn't, then what would you recommend as humane? 1c)If not included above in 1b, would you consider captive bolt as humane? 2)Would you agree that with the closing of the U.S. horse slaughter plants it has put more stress on the horses now having to travel to Mexico and Canada? 3)Do you personally consider horses as livestock or companion animals? 4)Hypothetically speaking, how would you feel if regional slaughter facilities were to open with the public dropping off horses at no reimbursement to them(they would save on euthanization,burial costs or turning them loose) and the facilities would pay a flat per pound rate(current kill buyers rate-?) which would go to regional(State inspected) rescue facilities? 5)Should horse meat be allowed to be eaten in this country? I'm asking these questions with no prejudice to you, just more curious on your line of thinking. My answers are below. 1)To the best of my knowledge, yes. 1a)No 1b)N/A 1c)Yes. 2)Yes. 3) I consider our 5 as companion animals, but have no problem with those that see them as livestock. 4)No ,although I'm sure there will be variables to address(like driving distances for some people). 5)I personally would "probably" not try it, although I don't have a problem with those that(under a legal system) chose to. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 45
| Sorry, only 3 minutes after posting to edit a post. My answer to question #4 should be: Yes, I would see that as a possibility. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
| I'm taking your post and inserting my answers after the *****OK, maybe I missed it in all the posts(along with the minutes lost forever), but could Phoresic please answer/answer again:1)Is all slaughter(USDA regulated) in THIS country (cattle,pork,chicken,etc) done in a humane manner?*********I don't know.1a)If it is, should horses, when considered livestock in that particular state, be treated differently?*********Yes1b)If it isn't, then what would you recommend as humane?*********I have no expertise in slaughter, but it should be done in a humane manner. Humane euthanasia includes an expert gunshot. 1c)If not included above in 1b, would you consider captive bolt as humane?*********It is not considered humane for horses as the system was not designed for horses.2)Would you agree that with the closing of the U.S. horse slaughter plants it has put more stress on the horses now having to travel to Mexico and Canada?********I am not sure that the U.S. slaughter of horses was better, and some of the problems remain the same. There is more travel time, but the time at the feedlots is often very bad.3)Do you personally consider horses as livestock or companion animals?********They are legally livestock and there are benefits to that classification.4)Hypothetically speaking, how would you feel if regional slaughter facilities were to open with the public dropping off horses at no reimbursement to them(they would save on euthanization,burial costs or turning them loose) and the facilities would pay a flat per pound rate(current kill buyers rate-?) which would go to regional(State inspected) rescue facilities?********That's interesting. It could be reviewed for weaknesses. One problem with slaughter is that it encourages people to kill horses that could continue to live productive lives and continue to benefit humans without being killed. Also, slaughter enables people who have received a lifetime of good service from a horse, and just kill it. Have you ever read a little kid's book called The Giving Tree? Bot a favorite of mine, but it does seem to illustrate horse ownership.5)Should horse meat be allowed to be eaten in this country?*******I don't think the consumption of horse meat should be prohibited - but it is not the cultural norm here.I'm asking these questions with no prejudice to you, just more curious on your line of thinking. My answers are below.1)To the best of my knowledge, yes. 1a)No 1b)N/A 1c)Yes.2)Yes.3) I consider our 5 as companion animals, but have no problem with those that see them as livestock.4)No ,although I'm sure there will be variables to address(like driving distances for some people).5)I personally would "probably" not try it, although I don't have a problem with those that(under a legal system) chose to.
Edited by Phoresic 2011-08-03 9:08 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2957
Location: North Carolina | Originally written by Bleve on 2011-08-02 9:37 PM
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/aug11/110815a.aspJust a reminder in this discussion, but horse slaughter was not banned. "Since fiscal year 2006, Congress has annually prohibited the use of federal funds to inspect horses destined for food, effectively halting domestic slaughter. With the cessation of domestic slaughter in 2007, Congress directed the GAO to examine horse welfare."Ergo, horse slaughter is still legal, you just cannot do it commercially for consumption.
Okay.. The key word is "Effectively" Since there are other laws that require FDA inspection for meat sold for human consumption. Saying horse slaughter wasn't banned by the gov't is like saying "I won't kill you, but I'm turning off your life support"
Dead is dead ... banned is banned, either way ...
Oil Drilling in the Gulf is banned in much the same way by this administration...
|
|
| |
Horse slaughter- another view LONG!
