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Veteran
Posts: 119
Location: 99320 | I was looking at horse trailers as I have been doing for the last couple of years (still no purchase!). I saw a Sooner 4-horse with these specs as part of the breakdown: 10-Ply Tires, 5200lb Axles, SHWT 6,040lbs, GVWR 12,160lbs, I always thought a 4-horse would have a minimum 6,000 axles and I'm not sure on the tires. Do these numbers make sense? Thanks. |
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Location: Tuttle, OK | Nothing wrong with 5200's on a 4 horse as long as it's not an exceptionally large trailer. They'll handle it and give a better ride than a trailer that is over axeled for its size. |
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Veteran
Posts: 119
Location: 99320 | http://www.horsetrailerworld.com/home/trailerdetail.asp?ID=187774 This is the trailer advertisement I'm referring to, so with 5200 lb axles, the total capacity is 10,400, right? This would be the weight of the trailer and it's load combined? Is the SHWT the trailer weight at time of shipment and GVWR the total load allowed? I am probably confused since the GVWR of this trailer is listed at 12,160. I get lost with all the abreviations. But, if the total allowed weight of the trailer and cargo is 10,400 and if the trailer weighs 6,040, that leaves me with 4,360 to divide between four horses, saddles, bridles, blankets, buckets, brushes, clothes, water tank, fridge, etc., right? Thanks for any input! |
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Expert
Posts: 5870
  
Location: western PA | Most GN trailer manufacturers include 20-25% of the trailer weight, being carried on the hitch of a truck. A trailer with axle capacities of 10,400#s would be given a total capacity of as much as 12,900#s Most manufacturers will upgrade the axles and tires for a nominal amount. It's better to have a reserve capacity, than running at or over your maximum ratings. You will have less mechanical issues and fewer tire failures.
Edited by gard 2010-03-09 9:44 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 119
Location: 99320 | Gard,Is 1760 an acceptable / normal tongue weight? This is more than 25% of the trailer weight.
Edited by Safet 2010-03-10 11:57 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 795
Location: Tenn/Ala. | Safet- I can't speak to what you were told, but in my '07 Sooner product data book, the SE422 4 horse trailer is showing 7,000# axles. And the LX upgrade package moves this to Dexter Nev-R-Lube axles at that. Also, beware to tongue weight is not a published spec for most manufacturers, so a dealer may have to weigh it to get it for you. Gard's number of 25% for a non LQ is generally pretty accurate.
RTSmith |
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Veteran
Posts: 119
Location: 99320 | Thanks for that information. I was expecting 6,000 lb axles on that trailer, but the dealer confirmed they are 5200 lb axles! I may just drive down there and look under the trailer myself. I'm also concerned about the 10 ply tires and what weight they can really carry. |
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | 10 ply tires will typically be rated at 3042 pounds per tire. |
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Veteran
Posts: 119
Location: 99320 | So, not good tires for a four horse trailer... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 795
Location: Tenn/Ala. | For a 22'L 4 horse trailer that at most will ever run about 12,000# (and only 9,000# of that is on the axles), a 10PR tire will be great. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 795
Location: Tenn/Ala. | By the way- If that trailer has 10PR tires, even with 7,000# axles they may give a GAWR of 6,084# which is the lesser of 2 tires or the axle....This is normal. Another by the way- The book shows 3,500 on 2H, 5200 on 3H, 7,000# on 4,5,&6 horse in that series of trailer. |
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Veteran
Posts: 119
Location: 99320 | I think I will have to visit the place, measure and look at it closely. The ad on their site states it's a 28 ft long trailer. If I do happen to get down there this weekend, I'll post what I find out. |
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Expert
Posts: 3802
 
Location: Rocky Mount N.C. | Don't let the number of lug nuts fool you either. I got a 2001 model trailer that has 2-5500# axles (at least that's what the data plate says, trailer GVWR is 11000#) with eight lug American made tires and Made in the USA rims!!! 5200# and 5500# must be the dividing line between six lug and eight lug stuff. |
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | Originally written by retento on 2010-03-10 5:19 PM Don't let the number of lug nuts fool you either. I got a 2001 model trailer that has 2-5500# axles (at least that's what the data plate says, trailer GVWR is 11000#) with eight lug American made tires and Made in the USA rims!!! 5200# and 5500# must be the dividing line between six lug and eight lug stuff. I have an 01 Exiss with 5200# axles. A friend bought the same trailer in an 03 version. I have eight bolt wheels, he has six. I believe the newer trailers also have six bolt wheels. It's my guess that it's cheaper to build and install an axle with less parts. |
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Veteran
Posts: 188
Location: Ingalls, Ks | My Kiefer 16' trailer is rated at 10,400# also. It has 8 bolt good wheels on it. It came out with carlisle 7.50-16 bias ply tires. If I remember right they were load rated to about 2,600# each. I always figured that was the reason for the load rating, as the axles look the same as the 7,000# set on another trailer. Had one of the guys pack the bearings the other day and they seemed to be as heavy as most 7000# ,though I didn't measure them. |
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Expert
Posts: 1416
Location: sc | If the info is not on the trailer there is only one way to tell what axles are on it, check the bearings. Tires can be changed. All three 5.2K, 6K, 7K have the 12"x2" brake drums. I would say 5.2K axles are on the light side for that trailer. At quick glance a reasonable guess would be; 6 lug with a 15" tire is 5.2K 6 lug with a 16" tire is 6K 8 lug with a 16" tire is 7K, if it has 9/16" studs that probability goes higher. |
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | Exiss Event Axles | 3H GN Two (2) 5,200 lbs. rubber torsion axles with electric brakes |
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Wheels: Five 16” 6 hole steel wheels with five radial tires (includes spare) |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
Location: Zionsville, Indiana | Can't stop thinking about this and wishing it was simpler. Here are the basics. 3500# axles can have 5 or 6 bolt wheels. 5 bolt wheels have four possible bolt patterns, 6 bolt wheel are standard 5.5" pattern. 10x2.25 brakes. Usually L68149 and L44649 bearings. 2-3/8" OD tube. 5200# axles (now called general duty 6000#) can have six or 8 bolt wheels. 12x2 brakes. 6 bolt hubs 25580 and 15123 or 25580 and LM67048 bearings. 8 bolt hubs 25580 and 14125A bearings. 3" OD tube, .180 wall. 6000# axles (now called heavy duty 6000#) 12x2 brakes. 6 or 8 bolt hubsand bearings as above. 3" OD tube, .250 wall. 7000# axles. 12x2 brakes, thicker pads and different magnets than 6k. 8 bolt hubs 25580 and 14125A bearings. 3" tube, .250 wall. There are some oddball hubs and bearings and UTG hubs for all of the above, but these won't be encountered in the horse trailer industry. Also, keep in mind that a manufacturer can assign any GVWR rating that they want. Some manufacturers use the lowest rating of the axle or wheel or tire combination (which I think is the way to do it) but some use 125% of the axle capacity or just pull a number out of the air. Years ago I called one manufacturer and asked how they arrived at a ridiculously high rating on a particular trailer, and the answer was "it's the figure we've always used". No one knew how it was originally determined. We have several manufacturers who will build a trailer and downrate it, like from 14,000# to 9995# to achieve a truck/trailer combination that fits a particular driver's license requirement. It seems that it is up to the consumer to gather all the information, arrive at a conclusion about what the trailer is capable of hauling, and use good sense. When I am king of the world, I will make it less complicated. |
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Veteran
Posts: 119
Location: 99320 | So, how does one get the actual weight for the trailer without buying the trailer? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
Location: Zionsville, Indiana | By law, the Certificate of Origin supplied by the manufacturer has to have the empty weight of the trailer on it. However, when that C of O is surrendered to the licensing authority in exchange for a titile, that information is lost. Contrary to popular belief, the empty weight is seldom marked on the trailer anywhere, usually just the axle capacity, tire capacity and GVWR. We encourage buyers of our new horse and cargo trailers to write the weight somewhere inside the trailer for future use. You could contact the mfr. with the serial number of the trailer, and they will no doubt tell you the empty weight, the same figure they would have put on the C of O. HOWEVER, that figure is probably what they call a "bill of material" weight, meaning an engineer figured the weight of the parts and materials and added it up to get the empty weight of the trailer. Very few if any manufacturers actually put a finished trailer on a scale and weigh it. We have taken various brands and types of trailers to the local feed mill, and never has the weight matched the C of O weight. It hasn't been dramatically off, but has been off a bit in both directions. Again, when I am king of the world, every trailer will be put on a scale. |
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Veteran
Posts: 119
Location: 99320 | Thank you. |
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Expert
Posts: 5870
Location: western PA | Kay Very informative postings! Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us with accurate information. I didn't realize the trailer manufacturers had free reign to claim any weight rating they wanted, on a product they don't even manufacture. It doesn't make sense, and I can't help but wonder, how the axle manufacturer can be held liable for an overweight failure, caused by a trailer builder misrepresenting the axles' capacities. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
Location: Zionsville, Indiana | Good question. Maybe the axle manufacturer's margin of safety in their ratings has something to do with it. We do Dexter warranty work, but I don't believe that we have ever had a warranty claim that was refused because the axle was overloaded. I have been told that Dexter can analyze an axle and determine whether or not it has been overloaded, but we have never sent an axle to them. Most warranty claims are for component parts failures, and there are very few of them. Dexter is very good about handling warranty claims. We see plenty of overloaded trailers, particularly dump trailers, but what usuallly happens is that, if the tires don't blow, the spindle bends, then the bearings, hub, etc. fail. There is no question about whether or not it was overloaded when this happens, and it sure isn't a warranty claim. |
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Veteran
Posts: 119
Location: 99320 | Is the serial number the same as the VIN (hope this is not a dumb question!)? What does the VIN tell you about the trailer? Is it the same for all trailers? I'm thinking about Sooner trailers, specifically. Thank you. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
Location: Zionsville, Indiana | The serial number and the VIN (vehicle identification number) are one and the same. It should be 17 digits. Many manufacturers use the VIN in a similar manner. The sixth and seventh digit is the length of the trailer, the eighth digis is the number of axles, the tenth digit is the year, the ninth is a control number derived by adding all the numbers and dividing by something (11, I think). Thus you can sometimes get the trailer length and the year of manufacture. Some of the other numbers and letters have specific meaning to that manufacturer. For instance, a Corn Pro 18' bumper pull utility might have a VIN like 4MJUB1829AE052411. The UB indicates to Corn Pro a utility bumper pull, the 18 says it is 18' long, the 2 means it has two axles, 9 is the control number, and A says it is a 2010 model. Prior to 2010, the 2001 models were 1, 2002 were 2, etc. The last six digits seem to be a count of how many units have been produced. Not all VIN numbers are going to follow this system. Also, some manufacturers include the length of the gooseneck in the length figure, and some do not. Sufficiently confused? |
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Axles & trailer size - Do these numbers make sense?
