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New User
Posts: 3
Location: Austin TX | I was stopped this past weekend by a TX Trooper and he checked my truck and trailer ID plates and informed me that I was required to have a class A cdl to pull my 4 horse C & C ( GVWR of 15450 # ) with my Dually GVWR of 11100#. I checked the laws and even though we've been hauling a 3 years with this set up it appears he is correct. My question is, What happens if the vin plate "falls off" my trailer and it no longer has a GVWR avail to the troupper? The VIN # is stamped into the trailer in 2 other locations so the vin is still readable. Thoughts? PS: After researching this that it appears in Texas ( and many other states ) that if you pull a trailer with a GVWR of 10001 # or more you are required to have a Class A Lic. You might be able to sneak by on farm tags but after speaking with CVE officers that sounds like that loophole may be getting closed on us too. The bad part of this law is that there is basicilly NO WAY to get close to that 26001 weight in reality, but they use the GCWR of greater than 10001# to get us..
Edited by Centex 2009-03-24 11:24 AM
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: Northern, CA | They'll take you to a scale and weigh you. Go get your CDL, you really don't want to pay the fine. Besides, if you travel out of state, you'll be illegal there, too. |
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Member
Posts: 26
Location: Kingsland, TX | I wouldn't play too many games with the highway patrol (DOT). I have a class 8 truck single axle and pull my horse trailer with it. I do have my CDL and try to stay reasonably compliant with everything. I have also been in the trucking business before and those DOT fines are expensive. If no VIN number......I know some of them have portable scales with them. They can also add up the weight ratings on the tires. I would also guess that they can run the license plate number and the registered weight ratings will appear. I have an email from TX DOT stating everything to be compliant and I've always thought that they would catch up to the one ton dually guys sooner or later...... Thats just my 2 cents....... |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Columbia, TN | I would probably take this to court. I would weigh the truck and trailer and you will probably not be near the gross vehicle weight. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 379
Location: Columbia, TN | I would probably take this to court. I would weigh the truck and trailer and you will probably not be near the gross vehicle weight. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 792
Location: East Tennessee, USA, Planet Earth | Geez...what a pain in the butt. I have my CDL, and honestly I do not understand why they ask the non-commercial drivers to get one. Good luck! |
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Veteran
Posts: 155
Location: North Salem, IN | As a rule of thumb, DOT goes by the weight rating, not the actual weight, and any trailer with a 10,000 lb GVWR or higher is considered a commercial motor vehicle and you do need a CDL to pull it. Now if you are loaded over the indicated weight rating, then that is a whole new ball game! |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 383
Location: Texas | If you are over 26,000 combined rating (emphasis on the combined) you need to have a CDL in TX, it's been that way for years. I wouldn't remove the VIN plate..... to me that would say STOLEN and you would get hassled for that. Getting your CDL isn't hard or expensive. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 720
| Couple of notes- this isn't about Texas. This is all federal law. There are some old threads here. The other kicker is not the fines, but if the officer is in a mood, operating a Commercial Motor Vehicle without a CDL is a felony- with the penalty a mandatory 30 days sentence as I understand it. A CDL isn't that hard to get. If you cannot pass the test, I don't want you driving that rig on the roads with my family anyway. |
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Location: KY | If you are a commercial enterprise, you must have a CDL regardless of weight. If you are a recreational use only, then you need to print the federal law and go to court over the ticket. You all see those humongous rv buses pulling cars,etc, those drivers do not have cdl and they are not required too. There is an exemption in the cdl/dot for recreational use. It is not about the weight; it is about the use. If you go cdl, then you will need dot and log books, and commercial trucking insurance.....just my 2 cents. You might want to consult a lawyer who is familar with motor vehicle laws.....and have the lawyer go to court with you or for you. Attorney fees will be a whole lot less money and hassle than cdl, dot and commercial trucking insurance. If you are recreational, I strongly encourage you to fight the ticket.....you will help yourself and all the rest of us. |
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Location: KY | ps personally I will not take legal advice from a police officer or other law enforcement personnel....but that is just me. Good luck and please keep this thread updated on what you do. Thanks. oh another thing, what did the trooper say about WHY he stopped you? Tail light out, speeding, something else? It is an unlawful stop to pull over a vehicle just to go on a fishing expedition. US Supreme Court decision Brown v. Texas; black man on foot in white neighborhood stopped and asked for id. Only reason for stop was black man in white neighborhood. THERE IS NO LAW IN THE UNITED STATES WHICH REQUIRES A HUMAN TO CARRY PAPERS when going about on foot, minding one's own business. At the moment at least, there is no such thing as federal identity papers.
Edited by rose 2009-03-24 10:13 AM
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Member
Posts: 32
Location: chatfield mn | There are several regulations that may or may not apply depending on weather the rig is being used for commercial purposes. In regards to the type of drivers license you need, each state has its own requirements and most also adopt the Federal Motor Carrier regulations for commercial vehicles. You would have to check with your home states lecensing to determine what class license you need. I live in MN so cant quote Texas law. The reason law enforcement officers look at the vin sticker for the GVWR is that under federal regs and some states (like MN) the definition of weight is either the actual weight of the vehicle or the GVWR, which ever is greater. Therefore, even if your combination actually weighs less than 26000 lbs, if the GVWR is over, you may need a higher class license. I believe it is also a violation of federal law to remove the vin sticker, also called the federal safety sticker. If your rig meets the definition of a recreational vehicle, you may be exempt from the requirement of a higher class license. This would have to be your home states definition, as there is no definition under Federal Motor Carrier law. |
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | MOST states have an exemption for recreational vehicles. Texas Transportation Code 522.004.04 covers recreational vehicles. The issue that you might run into is that neither vehicle is titled as a "Recreational Vehicle". It's all in here. http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/tn.toc.htm |
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Member
Posts: 26
Location: Kingsland, TX | Like I said earlier.....I have a single axle truck and my scale weight is around 30,000lbs. I have a commercial policy (that is for personal use....I'm hauling my own horses, truck, trailer and "Not For Hire") because my "intended use" is for gain (compensation.....no matter what form). Basically its like the NASCAR haulers and I just have a plain white rig with no sponsors on the side. The burden of proof of whether you are recreational or commercial (ie roping for a buckle, ribbon, money, world titles, etc are considered commercial by the DOT) is on you. Granted by the IRS's standards the compensation is a joke to the expenses but to the DOT it's commercial. Of course you can always "run silent....run deep" or "go where they ain't" |
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Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas | My Dodge has a gvwr of 12-k, the horse trailer is I think 16-k, the hay trailer is 16-k and I run farm tags on everything! Been stopped a few time same questions, where are you going, are you hauling for anyone, blah blah blah! Same answers, going to a show, tail ride or whatever, I am hauling our own horses. But never tell them you are hauling a friends horse or going to a jackpot of any kind. Did this one time and that is how I got the information. He was really nice about it and let me know never tell them you are going to try and make money. This is where they WILL nail you! SO when the better half goes to the barrel races she is going to exibition and when I go to the ropings I am just going for practice and watch. Kind of stupid and just another way to suck money out of poeple doing what they love with the aminals they love to do it with. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 801
Location: Tenn/Ala. | And I understand that if you set it up to depreciate it out as farm equipment, then that automatically makes it commercial. At least according to the DOT inspector here in middle TN. And the "farm exemption" for CDL is for transporting one's product to market. He wasn't amused when asked if it could apply to a horse trailer. |
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Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas | I think it comes down to who has not made the monthly numbers and need to make them up fast.
The ol'saying around here is "don't start nothing, won't be nothing", so we just smile and wave as we drive by. We just came back from a Trail Challenge over the weekend and on the way back we was passed by group of trailers (running way too fast)coming back from a roping further south and a few miles down the road one was stopped by the dear ol'trooper man.
I would like to hear that story, driving a Freightliner with huge Bloomer in tow both with farm tags! |
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Location: KY | hogtownboss You said it right about speed....that is one sure way to get pulled over, and that probably would be a legal stop. Now back to the original poster: Why did the trooper say he pulled you over? If the stop is no good, then the ticket goes away. There is no way a trooper would know before or at the time of the stop whether one was depreciating one's equipment on one's tax return. It all begins with the original rationale for the stop. Sure would like an update from the original poster!
Edited by rose 2009-03-24 11:34 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 335
Location: Decatur, Texas | I was stopped a few months back by a state trooper while driving my new company pickup. Couldn't imagine why I was being stopped as I knew I wasn't speeding. Turns out the dealer's license plate frame around the permanent plates just touched the top of "TEXAS" on the plates. He wrote me a warning for an obscured license plate. And it is the law. But his closing comment was that he knew I thought this was a triviality to be stopped for but law enforcement looked for any type of infringement to enable stopping the traveling public. His last comment, "You would be surprised how much drugs and/or illegal aliens are running up and down Highway 287". Then another truck came by and didn't move over to the inside lane as he passed. Guess who got stopped next? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 792
Location: East Tennessee, USA, Planet Earth | Probable cause. Geez...how I miss the days I worked in law enforcement. HA!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 801
Location: Tenn/Ala. | Rose- Here's an interesting note about probable cause. According to the Commercial Enforcement training officer in Mid Tenn., they have a requirement to do so many types of inspections on commercial rigs every month. While there must be cause to pull over a private rig, he tells me that commercial vehicles can and will be stopped at random for purposes of inspecting log books, licenses, inspection, etc. When he runs your DOT number, it will tell him when the last time you've been inspected. And if it has been a while, you just might be the lucky winner of a full blown put on the coveralls & get greasy safety inspection. By the way- in Tenn when you apply for a DOT number, you will get an apointment with one of these fine folks for a 2-3 hour meeting that explains the laws, rules, and prodecures. Supposed to be a preventive maintenance to a roadside/courtroom awakening. They call it ACES, Alternative Commercial Enforcement Strategy. I have to admit, it was pretty interestng. As a dealer, it now has me hiring our hauling work out rather than trying to comply with random drug testing, and so on. Just my .02$ |
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Member
Posts: 32
Location: chatfield mn | It is true, there is no probable cause needed to stop a commercial vehicle. They are subject to inspection at any time. In regards to farm plates on vehicles, the use of farm plates is up to the individual states. Each state has its own limitations as to what they can be used for. Here in Minnesota, you couldn't legally put farm plates on it and then claim its being used for recreation. The strict limits are because the farm plates cost 35% of the regular rate. It also may indicate some sort of business use (commercial vehicle). A mistake commonly made is if people are hauling their own product for their own business they think they are not a commercial vehicle. This means they are a private carrier and not a for hire carrier. They are still required to comply with all the commercial veh requirements. |
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 Regular
Posts: 76
Location: Cowboy Cradle of the Southwest | Originally written by hogtownboss on 2009-03-24 2:48 PM I think it comes down to who has not made the monthly numbers and need to make them up fast. I had a DOT officer tell me one time that they no longer had "quotas". They now have "goals and objectives".  |
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Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas | Had a meeting today with a couple of DPS officers in Texas and found out when running with NO CDL and I get pulled over and tell them I was going to a local show or even taking a mare in for breeding that was the same as making money! Even though the shows are for points, because if I offered the horse for sale at a later date and mention "this horse has points in whatever" this would or could raise the value!
Talk about a load of grap!
On the other hand I ask about registering my LQ horse trailer as an RV since it is insured as an RV and they could not tell me if that would work
or not. Just said "we never thought about that"!
After an hour or so, I ask what was involved in the CDL other than higher price for lic. for me and the truck. I was infromed that I would then have to start keeping a log book as well!
So, guess what, anytime we go ride weather it be a roping, barrel race or rodeo, we are going trail riding! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 792
Location: East Tennessee, USA, Planet Earth | Originally written by hogtownboss on 2009-03-25 3:58 PM
Had a meeting today with a couple of DPS officers in Texas and found out when running with NO CDL and I get pulled over and tell them I was going to a local show or even taking a mare in for breeding that was the same as making money!
Yes, because you are increasing the value of your horse.
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Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas | Mine are not for sale for ANY price....
Well, unless Mr Trooper is going to pull that card, then I will tell him if he is going to write me a ticket he can also pull out his check book and pay me for my horses. That way he will have a valid reason for writing that ticket.
Sounds like a deal for me.... |
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 Expert
Posts: 1877
Location: NY | they( trooper)can pull you over for routine inspection for safety reasons. It is a just cause. |
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Regular
Posts: 51
Location: Grundy Center, IA | This has been going on in various areas of the country for several years now. Here in Iowa you hear of some stings similar to this every once in awhile. One site that I would recommend reading is www.motorists.org/other/home/dot-numbering-requirements/. There is some good reading on there about exceptions in regards to your horses (or other similar things such as a race car) as a hobby even if showing with a chance to win some prize money. At the horse fair coming up in Iowa, one of the topics is going to be transporting your horses and the DOT. Should be interesting. |
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Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas | Just like I posted earlier, "don't start nothing, won't be nothing"! Or simple english, drive right and do not give the a reason to stop you. The poopers around here are too busy with the oil field trucks and rock truck to worry about horse trailers. Unless you are like the guys that passed us over the weekend, driving like they was on fire..... But the poopers got the a few miles down the road. Yes, I did mean to miss spell trooper! |
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.jpg) Expert
Posts: 2828
Location: Southern New Mexico | It's not that easy to get a cdl. I tried when we lived in Tx, took the test and then they said I had to take a driving test with the eqquipment I would be driving so I showed up with my truck/trailer and the examiner said it had to be a 18 wheeler. I don't own a rig and have never driven one. The people at the DMV told me that was the only way to get it. |
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Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas | Whoever told you it had to be an 18 wheeler told you WRONG! You can take the test in anything that has a DOT inspection sticker on it. Look at all of the 3/4 ton and 1-ton oil field trucks running around, most all of the have DOT inspections on them. |
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Expert
Posts: 2828
Location: Southern New Mexico | I emailed the DOT and asked this quiestion back in 2005 and I was told that as long as I was not using the horses, truck or trailer for business and they were licensed as private vehicles ( I'm under 26000lbs) I didn't need a CDL. I still have the emails with the Troupers names and e-mail addresses on them. I had it printed up and in my truck so if I ever had problems I could pull them out to show that was told by their offices that I was legal. |
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Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas | Originally written by Terri on 2009-03-30 11:13 PM
I emailed the DOT and asked this quiestion back in 2005 and I was told that as long as I was not using the horses, truck or trailer for business and they were licensed as private vehicles ( I'm under 26000lbs) I didn't need a CDL. I still have the emails with the Troupers names and e-mail addresses on them. I had it printed up and in my truck so if I ever had problems I could pull them out to show that was told by their offices that I was legal.
As long as you are 26-k lbs GVWR or UNDER you can do whatever you want to with personal or farm tags! What they are looking for is the ones running OVER 26-k lbs GVWR!
ie: My Dodge C/C truck and Sundower 8010 3 Horse, F-450's with just about any 3 or 4 horse trailer with a 10' or large LQ, Freightlines, and the Chevy 4500's! The gvwr on my truck is 12-k and the gvwr on my horse trailer is 16-k so I am at 28-k GVWR, that is why I am running FARM tags (they are good for 34-k lbs) but I do nothing for money or to make money with my horses..... So it really does no matter if you weigh you truck and trailer loaded and come up with 26-k or less, if the stickers on the vehicles show more that will get you.....
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Expert
Posts: 2828
Location: Southern New Mexico | Fortunately my truck is tagged at 8800 and my trailer is tagged at 14000. But I just have a 2 1/2 shortwall dressing room, no LQ. |
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain... | Well, you are in good shape...it is primarily the ones like HTB that have a combined GVWR over 26K that they are going after. I have heard of people being stopped in numerous states back east, and it seems to be getting more common here. |
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Member
Posts: 11
Location: Minnesota | Originally written by Terri on 2009-04-01 12:04 AM
Fortunately my truck is tagged at 8800 and my trailer is tagged at 14000. But I just have a 2 1/2 shortwall dressing room, no LQ.
I would still check your state guidelines, WI is 26k combined or towed vehicle greater than 10k |
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Expert
Posts: 1351
Location: Decatur, Texas | Originally written by Terri on 2009-04-01 12:04 AM
Fortunately my truck is tagged at 8800 and my trailer is tagged at 14000. But I just have a 2 1/2 shortwall dressing room, no LQ.
You are just fine with you combination, with 3200lbs to spare!
If these troopers would worry more about the POS 18 wheelers from accross the boarder running worn out tires and leaking air lines and leave the horse people alone we would not have to worry about DOT crap ourself. They are looking for the easy buck, figuring a fancy truck and trailer would be an easy target!
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Member
Posts: 26
Location: Southern New Mexico | "If these troopers would worry more about the POS 18 wheelers from accross the boarder running worn out tires and leaking air lines and leave the horse people alone we would not have to worry about DOT crap ourself. They are looking for the easy buck, figuring a fancy truck and trailer would be an easy target! 60 Have you heard the saying "you can't get blood out of a turnip"? Horse people pay, mexican nationals are covered under NAFTA! In New Mexico I am not considered commercial with a GVRW of 11500 on pickup and GVRW of 21000 on flatbed but if I cross state lines anywhere around me I become commercial, even though I am hauling for myself. Don't get me wrong I love this country, but it is becoming more and more "socialist" with every wakeing hour. And soon law enforcement will be able to stop you to cee if your animals have the "chip" implanted. But thats another argument. |
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CDL Question in Texas? Personal use only
